Should discussion about The Poem be ... censored?

[BruceVC]

 

I imagine Obsidian didn't consult the forum community because to be fair it has nothing really to do with us

 

 

 

 

I mean the need to address the outrage that was on Facebook and Twitter

 

I don't mean people on these forums didn't have an opinion either way  but the reality is there are much more  people who don't even frequent these forums that Obsidian also has to be concerned about. And of course there are gaming websites that can influence the perception of Obsidian which is probably why Feargus Urquhart had the interview with  Polygon to get a message across. It makes sense if you think about the big picture outside these forums?

[Longknife]

I mean the need to address the outrage that was on Facebook and Twitter

 

I don't mean people on these forums didn't have an opinion either way  but the reality is there are much more  people who don't even frequent these forums that Obsidian also has to be concerned about. And of course there are gaming websites that can influence the perception of Obsidian which is probably why Feargus Urquhart had the interview with  Polygon to get a message across. It makes sense if you think about the big picture outside these forums?

 

 

No it doesn't because:

 

1) Gaming websites will report on updates made within communities. They do this all the time. I know Edmund posted an update on his blog with info on the upcoming Isaac Rebirth expansion and gaming sites grabbed it, copy-pasted it and reported it. That's their job.

 

2) People read Polygon wtf?

[Volourn]

"I don't mean people on these forums didn't have an opinion either way  but the reality is there are much more  people who don't even frequent these forums that Obsidian also has to be concerned about. And of course there are gaming websites that can influence the perception of Obsidian which is probably why Feargus Urquhart had the interview with  Polygon to get a message across. It makes sense if you think about the big picture outside these forums?"

 

Nobody in the main gaming press gave a crap.  Heck, not even any of the SJW writers went out of their way to even writer a story about it. I think I noticed like 2 articles on the issue and that wa sonly after Obsidian changed it. It was one or two twitter postings whining. You shouldn't be changing your game because of some peons cried on twitter on bit. 99.9% of  PE players likely never noticed the stupid limerick let alone paid it any attention. L0L

 

If Obsidian just ignored it the thing would have died quickly. Obsidian made it a bigger deal than it actually is. But, that's not surprised when you have Sawyer who supports those who loathe him and his company.

 

Edited April 12, 2015 by Volourn

[FaustianEchoes]

http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/28/?

 

Thankfully we don't have to stand for it.

[Serdan]

I am against all censorship, regardless of content or reasoning.

As a free-willed human being, you have the right to walk away, and the right to ignore.

You also have the right to criticize.

But you don't have the right to force someone else to not express themselves.

The second you do, you give up that right yourself.

 

To put it simply, in my mind:

 

A murderer has no right to life.

An invader has no right to privacy.

A critic had no right to a lack of criticism,

A censor had no right to free speech.

 

It seems like a good philosophy. If you don't want to be treated a certain way, don't do it to others. (Kind of like the inverse of the Golden Rule.) As such, I will always stand against the people trying to silence others, no matter how much I agree on principle with them, and disagree with the one I stand beside.

 

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, summarizing her friend, Voltaire.

That's very lovely and all, but could you explain the relevance?

[FaustianEchoes]

 

I am against all censorship, regardless of content or reasoning.

As a free-willed human being, you have the right to walk away, and the right to ignore.

You also have the right to criticize.

But you don't have the right to force someone else to not express themselves.

The second you do, you give up that right yourself.

 

To put it simply, in my mind:

 

A murderer has no right to life.

An invader has no right to privacy.

A critic had no right to a lack of criticism,

A censor had no right to free speech.

 

It seems like a good philosophy. If you don't want to be treated a certain way, don't do it to others. (Kind of like the inverse of the Golden Rule.) As such, I will always stand against the people trying to silence others, no matter how much I agree on principle with them, and disagree with the one I stand beside.

 

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall, summarizing her friend, Voltaire.

That's very lovely and all, but could you explain the relevance?

 

 

I think they're trying to say that your sexual orientation is not a shield from critique. Also, the limerick wasn't even close to hate speech. You're just an ass.

[Serdan]

 

I think they're trying to say that your sexual orientation is not a shield from critique. Also, the limerick wasn't even close to hate speech. You're just an ass.

 

Nice framing. Completely wrong-headed of course, but very lovely indeed.

Who has claimed that sexual orientation is a shield from critique?

Who has claimed that the limerick was hate speech?

I've certainly made neither claim, which seems to be what you're implying.

Of course I don't expect you to acknowledge your mistake and apologise. That would require a modicum of self-awareness.

[BruceVC]

http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/28/?

 

Thankfully we don't have to stand for it.

 

So the limerick is finally back if you want it ...well that is significant and should change your gaming experience by exactly.......I'm not sure how this changes your gaming experience ?

 

Now before someone says " how does it change your gaming experience by having it in the game " 

 

It doesn't but its an issue because of what it represents so for me removing it is more about  the principle  

 

And that issue is about homophobia 

[FaustianEchoes]

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/28/?

 

Thankfully we don't have to stand for it.

 

So the limerick is finally back if you want it ...well that is significant and should change your gaming experience by exactly.......I'm not sure how this changes your gaming experience ?

 

Now before someone says " how does it change your gaming experience by having it in the game " 

 

It doesn't but its an issue because of what it represents so for me removing it is more about  the principle  

 

And that issue is about homophobia 

 

 

The limerick isn't homophobic. Would it be misogynistic if it were about waking up next to an ugly fat woman instead of a transvestite?

[Serdan]

 

I am satisfied with Obsidian's response because the limerick perpetuated harmful stereotypes about a much maligned minority. The reason I care about that is because I possess empathy. I also possess the faculties to recognise that the talk of free speech is a red herring.

 

It is, of course, highly amusing that you bring up sexuality when the subject has to do with trans* issues. It is a lovely demonstration of how little you know.

Edited April 15, 2015 by LadyCrimson
quoted post removed

[Serdan]

The limerick isn't homophobic. Would it be misogynistic if it were about waking up next to an ugly fat woman instead of a transvestite?

 

Yes. Not that I expect you to understand that.

[FaustianEchoes]

I am satisfied with Obsidian's response because the limerick perpetuated harmful stereotypes about a much maligned minority. The reason I care about that is because I possess empathy. I also possess the faculties to recognise that the talk of free speech is a red herring.

 

It is, of course, highly amusing that you bring up sexuality when the subject has to do with trans* issues. It is a lovely demonstration of how little you know.

 

So me being a heterosexual male, and not wanting to be with a trans woman even after surgery, I'm homophobic? Genetically male, to me, is still male. Whether you change the parts out or not. You're not going to change that for many people, and it's selfish that you expect heterosexuals to change for you.

 

You've made this limerick about something it's not. It was a harmless joke, it didn't have to be an ordeal. The backer who went ahead and let it be changed (if thats indeed how it happened) obviously didn't want to get into the **** hole of an argument.

 

Challenging the views of heterosexual men? I still think the challenge here is that trans women want heterosexual men who accept them as real women. You're not, and we won't. I'm not saying I'm happy that your change makes you feel better about yourself, but to me you're still a man. You might be beautiful, but if I know you were born a man, then a man to me you will ever be.

 

Now if I had a one night stand with a woman who I later found out was genetically a man, I'm not going to kill myself or hate her/him... but I certainly won't **** her/him again.

[BruceVC]

 

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/28/?

 

Thankfully we don't have to stand for it.

 

So the limerick is finally back if you want it ...well that is significant and should change your gaming experience by exactly.......I'm not sure how this changes your gaming experience ?

 

Now before someone says " how does it change your gaming experience by having it in the game " 

 

It doesn't but its an issue because of what it represents so for me removing it is more about  the principle  

 

And that issue is about homophobia 

 

 

The limerick isn't homophobic. Would it be misogynistic if it were about waking up next to an ugly fat woman instead of a transvestite?

 

 

Are you asking if the  limerick was about  a guy who kills himself because he had sex with a fat old  women would I find it controversial?

 

Yes I would..of course. But it wouldn't be misogynistic,  I would say its an issue of ageism...but overall I would just find it crass and childish 

 

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ageism?showCookiePolicy=true

[FaustianEchoes]

 

The limerick isn't homophobic. Would it be misogynistic if it were about waking up next to an ugly fat woman instead of a transvestite?

 

Yes. Not that I expect you to understand that.

 

No it wouldn't. Remember, just because you're butthurt doesnt make you right. Just because a fat ugly woman gets her feelings hurt, doesn't make someone a misogynist.

[FaustianEchoes]

 

 

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/28/?

 

Thankfully we don't have to stand for it.

 

So the limerick is finally back if you want it ...well that is significant and should change your gaming experience by exactly.......I'm not sure how this changes your gaming experience ?

 

Now before someone says " how does it change your gaming experience by having it in the game " 

 

It doesn't but its an issue because of what it represents so for me removing it is more about  the principle  

 

And that issue is about homophobia 

 

 

The limerick isn't homophobic. Would it be misogynistic if it were about waking up next to an ugly fat woman instead of a transvestite?

 

 

Are you asking if the  limerick was about  a guy who kills himself because he had sex with a fat old  women would I find it controversial?

 

Yes I would..of course. But it wouldn't be misogynistic,  I would say its an issue of ageism...but overall I would just find it crass and childish 

 

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ageism?showCookiePolicy=true

 

The ****in limerick wasn't meant to be taken literal, but all the gung-ho queers have certainly taken it that way and have in effect censored a backers words. Furthermore none of you even care about it, you're just glad you get to stick it to the straight guys again, because you can't get them to "Stick it" to you.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/28/?

 

Thankfully we don't have to stand for it.

 

So the limerick is finally back if you want it ...well that is significant and should change your gaming experience by exactly.......I'm not sure how this changes your gaming experience ?

 

Now before someone says " how does it change your gaming experience by having it in the game " 

 

It doesn't but its an issue because of what it represents so for me removing it is more about  the principle  

 

And that issue is about homophobia 

 

 

The limerick isn't homophobic. Would it be misogynistic if it were about waking up next to an ugly fat woman instead of a transvestite?

 

 

Are you asking if the  limerick was about  a guy who kills himself because he had sex with a fat old  women would I find it controversial?

 

Yes I would..of course. But it wouldn't be misogynistic,  I would say its an issue of ageism...but overall I would just find it crass and childish 

 

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ageism?showCookiePolicy=true

 

The ****in limerick wasn't meant to be taken literal, but all the gung-ho queers have certainly taken it that way and have in effect censored a backers words. Furthermore none of you even care about it, you're just glad you get to stick it to the straight guys again, because you can't get them to "Stick it" to you.

 

 

You got it buddy, anytime I get to undermine  straight guys I do it...you have exposed the great homosexual grand plan 

 

The level of the maturity and logic of your posts is deteriorating at an alarming rate, you sound almost  hysterical. My advice is take a break from this discussion for a while, you are not thinking clearly 

[FaustianEchoes]

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/28/?

 

Thankfully we don't have to stand for it.

 

So the limerick is finally back if you want it ...well that is significant and should change your gaming experience by exactly.......I'm not sure how this changes your gaming experience ?

 

Now before someone says " how does it change your gaming experience by having it in the game " 

 

It doesn't but its an issue because of what it represents so for me removing it is more about  the principle  

 

And that issue is about homophobia 

 

 

The limerick isn't homophobic. Would it be misogynistic if it were about waking up next to an ugly fat woman instead of a transvestite?

 

 

Are you asking if the  limerick was about  a guy who kills himself because he had sex with a fat old  women would I find it controversial?

 

Yes I would..of course. But it wouldn't be misogynistic,  I would say its an issue of ageism...but overall I would just find it crass and childish 

 

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/ageism?showCookiePolicy=true

 

The ****in limerick wasn't meant to be taken literal, but all the gung-ho queers have certainly taken it that way and have in effect censored a backers words. Furthermore none of you even care about it, you're just glad you get to stick it to the straight guys again, because you can't get them to "Stick it" to you.

 

 

You got it buddy, anytime I get to undermine  straight guys I do it...you have exposed the great homosexual grand plan 

 

The level of the maturity and logic of your posts is deteriorating at an alarming rate, you sound almost  hysterical. My advice is take a break from this discussion for a while, you are not thinking clearly 

 

 

Queer logic does indeed drive me to hysterics. You guys need to grow the **** up, it isn't the 1980s anymore. Your orientation isn't strange or taboo, but your crusade against anything hetero is starting to grind some gears. Ease the **** off already.

 

EDIT: There is no good reason the limerick was removed. Other than some homosexuals got butthurt over it, and it wasn't anything to get butthurt over. We're raising a generation of victims, and the grown men and women, gay or not, who act like victims on the daily are not helping the problem.

Edited April 13, 2015 by FaustianEchoes

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

You got it buddy, anytime I get to undermine  straight guys I do it...you have exposed the great homosexual grand plan 

 

The level of the maturity and logic of your posts is deteriorating at an alarming rate, you sound almost  hysterical. My advice is take a break from this discussion for a while, you are not thinking clearly 

 

Queer logic does indeed drive me to hysterics. You guys need to grow the **** up, it isn't the 1980s anymore. Your orientation isn't strange or taboo, but your crusade against anything hetero is starting to grind some gears. Ease the **** off already.

 

 

You right about one something, a persons sexual orientation shouldn't be strange and this basic human right is protected in many countries 

 

But its clearly still an issue for some people as you have demonstrated through the homophobic  innuendo in your posts 

Edited April 13, 2015 by BruceVC

[Serdan]

 

So me being a heterosexual male, and not wanting to be with a trans woman even after surgery, I'm homophobic?

Transphobic

 

 

Genetically male, to me, is still male.

Genetics are completely and utterly irrelevant to any meaningful relationship, with the sole exception of wanting children, which is an easily surmountable problem.

 

 

You've made this limerick about something it's not. It was a harmless joke, it didn't have to be an ordeal. The backer who went ahead and let it be changed (if thats indeed how it happened) obviously didn't want to get into the **** hole of an argument.

There wouldn't have been a ****storm if the freeze peach brigade hadn't gotten involved.

 

 

No it wouldn't. Remember, just because you're butthurt doesnt make you right. Just because a fat ugly woman gets her feelings hurt, doesn't make someone a misogynist.

Again with this?

There's a difference between hurting a single person and perpetuating harmful stereotypes. I do not expect you to understand this, of course.

 

 

The ****in limerick wasn't meant to be taken literal, but all the gung-ho queers have certainly taken it that way and have in effect censored a backers words. Furthermore none of you even care about it, you're just glad you get to stick it to the straight guys again, because you can't get them to "Stick it" to you.

I'm neither gay nor trans. The assumptions you've made are very telling.

Firedorn has not been censored. You linked to the mod yourself. He is evidently completely free to express himself without any legal repercussions.

Censorship is a red herring. It displays either plain dishonesty or a profound ignorance of the legal and historical context.

[Serdan]

Queer logic does indeed drive me to hysterics. You guys need to grow the **** up, it isn't the 1980s anymore. Your orientation isn't strange or taboo, but your crusade against anything hetero is starting to grind some gears. Ease the **** off already.

Are you really that clueless? Are you completely unaware of what's going on around the globe?

... Of course you are.

[BruceVC]

 

The ****in limerick wasn't meant to be taken literal, but all the gung-ho queers have certainly taken it that way and have in effect censored a backers words. Furthermore none of you even care about it, you're just glad you get to stick it to the straight guys again, because you can't get them to "Stick it" to you.

I'm neither gay nor trans. The assumptions you've made are very telling.

Firedorn has not been censored. You linked to the mod yourself. He is evidently completely free to express himself without any legal repercussions.

Censorship is a red herring. It displays either plain dishonesty or a profound ignorance of the legal and historical context.

 

 

I wasn't going to point this out but I am also neither gay or trans ..I just wanted to hear him going on  how " you get to stick it to straight guys again " 

 

You see for someone like Faustian its inexplicable that straight people could be agreeing that the limerick was inappropriate so if you support the removal of the limerick you must be pushing some overt or surreptious gay agenda.... as a gay person of course

[Serdan]

I wasn't going to point this out but I am also neither gay or trans ..I just wanted to hear him going on  how " you get to stick it to straight guys again " 

 

You see for someone like Faustian its inexplicable that straight people could be agreeing that the limerick was inappropriate so if you support the removal of the limerick you must be pushing some overt or surreptious gay agenda.... as a gay person of course

 

Of course.

It couldn't be that you just empathise with the blight of others.

[FaustianEchoes]

Why was it removed? Because it certainly wasn't homophobic.

 

Indiana allowing discrimination is homophobia.

 

A harmless limerick in Pillars of Eternity isn't homophobia.

 

You people need to learn to pick your battles, or you look like petty little children.

 

Calling me a homophobe for not agreeing with you also doesn't help your case.

Edited April 13, 2015 by FaustianEchoes

[Serdan]

Indiana allowing discrimination is homophobia.

 

Queer logic does indeed drive me to hysterics. You guys need to grow the **** up, it isn't the 1980s anymore. Your orientation isn't strange or taboo, but your crusade against anything hetero is starting to grind some gears. Ease the **** off already.

Tell me again, why is it we should ease up?

[BruceVC]

Why was it removed? Because it certainly wasn't homophobic.

 

Indiana allowing discrimination is homophobia.

 

A harmless limerick in Pillars of Eternity isn't homophobia.

 

You people need to learn to pick your battles, or you look like petty little children.

 

Calling me a homophobe for not agreeing with you also doesn't help your case.

Yes we agree on something, I made a whole a thread about the Indiana  " Freedom of Religion Bill " and how  it can definitely lead to discrimination 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/73966-indianas-freedom-of-religion-lawcontroversial/

 

But that is all it seems we agree on. I am limited around time due to work and RL commitments so I already have to pick my battles