Aqvamare Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) ok, need help at thalos... my level 12 monk stands in front of him....an see no chance....his first adamit has a prone strike, which knochs me down...and than, gameover in the moment a cast hits me... how did you fight him... really, i'm pissed, he has 170 deflection...his first add cannot be outmanovered, his range of hit is higher than talos body...and if you fight his add, thalos can cast his damage spells, which burn through my 260 endurance, like it is nothing. Edited April 7, 2015 by Aqvamare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDemiurg Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) Tbh I don't think there's a build/tactics that can do triple crown solo without relying on luck. You can optimise your success %, but it would never be 100, and probably much muсh less than that. This is due to very rng heavy nature of the game, and the fact that only a couple of bad rolls can ruin your day (so you can't rely on them averaging out to some plausible average). So it would likely require more than 1 try to do it. If the game was more like chess that would increase ironman appeal to me. Edited April 7, 2015 by MadDemiurg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceranai Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 ok, need help at thalos... my level 12 monk stands in front of him....an see no chance....his first adamit has a prone strike, which knochs me down...and than, gameover in the moment a cast hits me... how did you fight him you might wanna talk to mipsy, he is at the same stage, been stuck on it for a couple of days now but he is waiting till the load times are fixed, currently takes him 3 minutes to load before the fights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeus Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 "Bushido is realized in the presence of death. This means choosing death whenever there is a choice between life and death. There is no other reasoning." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai "I would prefer to fail with honor than win by cheating." - Sophocles The Trial of Iron mode has been presented in Pillars of Eternity as a special, optional challenge for players who wish to undertake it. This mode restricts players to a single save game. If the party is ever defeated, the save game is deleted. We do not believe it is necessary for us to police how players manipulate their save game data. You may choose to play Trial of Iron in whatever manner you see fit. However, I would like to take this opportunity to ask you to consider the following: what does it mean to achieve victory in Trial of Iron if the spirit of the challenge has been broken? What does defeat mean if you have pursued victory in the spirit of the challenge? Think upon this and act as your conscience dictates. Thanks for reading. J.E. Sawyer Director and Lead Designer And so there is no manipulated save game data, no cheating, but challenge for ever circumstances you may pass or may not, personally I do not see anything wrong. "If the party is ever defeated, the save game is deleted" By quiting and reloading when things get bad you give yourself infinite lives, again solo PoTD is still very impressive but i dont see how you dont see that save scumming makes it easier by a factor of ten... its quite clear that triple crown is supposed to be for those sadistic insane people who want to win the game with one character, no help and one life. What is the difference between your game and a game that had trial of iron turned off? You reloaded anything that killed you or anything you did wrong, surely you see that the point of trial of iron is you get one chance? It is one life, its just never meet it's dead end, such as an unprepared level 7 team run into the final boss and can't do nothing but reload, you can't do it in trial of iron, because game auto save your data after area change, for more proof, game will auto save before fighting Thaos, if reload the game you will see Thaos is summing titans and fights will begin soon, what is the meaning of this auto save? They are creating your dead end! And give limited chance for you to try! Also for a correction, S/L won't makes game easier, it makes game simplify, if the save is deleted, all I have to do is restart and do exact thing I just did, and hope for Lady of Fortunate watch over me, what is the meaning of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceranai Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 "Bushido is realized in the presence of death. This means choosing death whenever there is a choice between life and death. There is no other reasoning." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai "I would prefer to fail with honor than win by cheating." - Sophocles The Trial of Iron mode has been presented in Pillars of Eternity as a special, optional challenge for players who wish to undertake it. This mode restricts players to a single save game. If the party is ever defeated, the save game is deleted. We do not believe it is necessary for us to police how players manipulate their save game data. You may choose to play Trial of Iron in whatever manner you see fit. However, I would like to take this opportunity to ask you to consider the following: what does it mean to achieve victory in Trial of Iron if the spirit of the challenge has been broken? What does defeat mean if you have pursued victory in the spirit of the challenge? Think upon this and act as your conscience dictates. Thanks for reading. J.E. Sawyer Director and Lead Designer And so there is no manipulated save game data, no cheating, but challenge for ever circumstances you may pass or may not, personally I do not see anything wrong. "If the party is ever defeated, the save game is deleted" By quiting and reloading when things get bad you give yourself infinite lives, again solo PoTD is still very impressive but i dont see how you dont see that save scumming makes it easier by a factor of ten... its quite clear that triple crown is supposed to be for those sadistic insane people who want to win the game with one character, no help and one life. What is the difference between your game and a game that had trial of iron turned off? You reloaded anything that killed you or anything you did wrong, surely you see that the point of trial of iron is you get one chance? It is one life, its just never meet it's dead end, such as an unprepared level 7 team run into the final boss and can't do nothing but reload, you can't do it in trial of iron, because game auto save your data after area change, for more proof, game will auto save before fighting Thaos, if reload the game you will see Thaos is summing titans and fights will begin soon, what is the meaning of this auto save? They are creating your dead end! And give limited chance for you to try! Also for a correction, S/L won't makes game easier, it makes game simplify, if the save is deleted, all I have to do is restart and do exact thing I just did, and hope for Lady of Fortunate watch over me, what is the meaning of that? It is one life you just never die? You understand what death is right???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeus Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 ok, need help at thalos... my level 12 monk stands in front of him....an see no chance....his first adamit has a prone strike, which knochs me down...and than, gameover in the moment a cast hits me... how did you fight him... really, i'm pissed, he has 170 deflection...his first add cannot be outmanovered, his range of hit is higher than talos body...and if you fight his add, thalos can cast his damage spells, which burn through my 260 endurance, like it is nothing. Can monks wear hat? I remember there are 2 items can grant you whisper of Treason, That headsman titan has low will defense, and from the memory recall it can prone the other titan, I killed Thaos first so I have no idea if Thaos can be prone. A petrify trap can do a lot, if you have it and also have high level in mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omgFIREBALLS Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I really don't see why we're even discussing the reload method. Sure the combined achievements might be beyond retarded to attain due to RNG or whatever, but if we condone this behavior, Path of Iron becomes meaningless. You even have time to pause and exit/reload after you've been knocked out. How the hell can you ever lose if that's okay? Still it's a successful PotD expert solo run. My hat is certainly off for that. My Deadfire mods Out With The Good: The mod for tidying up your Deadfire combat tooltip. Waukeen's Berth: Make all your basic purchases at Queen's Berth. Carrying Voice: Wider chanter invocations. Nemnok's Congregation: Lets all priests express their true faith. Deadfire skill check catalogue right here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aqvamare Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 you get wisper as watcher abiltiy...the problem is, it is a slow cast...my monk wears plate amor....he cannot finish the spell, before he get proned, charmes...or something else. As chanter I would say, frosttrap chant and circle running, the trap will kill them slowly... Cipher, ... fast charming and reducing numbers, than RAW damage... My monk has no problem to outrun them, but thanks to plate armor i cannot even shoot them with range weapon before they are standing next to me and prone me. Think I have to go back with alternative save and switch armor from plate retiale strike to light and other stuff. so that i can doom kite them to death... still, from melle monk to range damage dealer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odd Hermit Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 It is one life, its just never meet it's dead end, such as an unprepared level 7 team run into the final boss and can't do nothing but reload, you can't do it in trial of iron, because game auto save your data after area change, for more proof, game will auto save before fighting Thaos, if reload the game you will see Thaos is summing titans and fights will begin soon, what is the meaning of this auto save? They are creating your dead end! And give limited chance for you to try! Also for a correction, S/L won't makes game easier, it makes game simplify, if the save is deleted, all I have to do is restart and do exact thing I just did, and hope for Lady of Fortunate watch over me, what is the meaning of that? The difficulty of Trial of Iron is finding tactics that work as consistently/reliably as possible. Exploiting to avoid the save deletion aspect circumvents that, allowing you to do things that may only work when you have favorable rolls and whatnot. Yes, bad RNG could end a Trial of Iron run, but the trick is mitigating that factor, not reloading to get good RNG yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeus Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) "Bushido is realized in the presence of death. This means choosing death whenever there is a choice between life and death. There is no other reasoning." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai "I would prefer to fail with honor than win by cheating." - Sophocles The Trial of Iron mode has been presented in Pillars of Eternity as a special, optional challenge for players who wish to undertake it. This mode restricts players to a single save game. If the party is ever defeated, the save game is deleted. We do not believe it is necessary for us to police how players manipulate their save game data. You may choose to play Trial of Iron in whatever manner you see fit. However, I would like to take this opportunity to ask you to consider the following: what does it mean to achieve victory in Trial of Iron if the spirit of the challenge has been broken? What does defeat mean if you have pursued victory in the spirit of the challenge? Think upon this and act as your conscience dictates. Thanks for reading. J.E. Sawyer Director and Lead Designer And so there is no manipulated save game data, no cheating, but challenge for ever circumstances you may pass or may not, personally I do not see anything wrong. "If the party is ever defeated, the save game is deleted" By quiting and reloading when things get bad you give yourself infinite lives, again solo PoTD is still very impressive but i dont see how you dont see that save scumming makes it easier by a factor of ten... its quite clear that triple crown is supposed to be for those sadistic insane people who want to win the game with one character, no help and one life. What is the difference between your game and a game that had trial of iron turned off? You reloaded anything that killed you or anything you did wrong, surely you see that the point of trial of iron is you get one chance? It is one life, its just never meet it's dead end, such as an unprepared level 7 team run into the final boss and can't do nothing but reload, you can't do it in trial of iron, because game auto save your data after area change, for more proof, game will auto save before fighting Thaos, if reload the game you will see Thaos is summing titans and fights will begin soon, what is the meaning of this auto save? They are creating your dead end! And give limited chance for you to try! Also for a correction, S/L won't makes game easier, it makes game simplify, if the save is deleted, all I have to do is restart and do exact thing I just did, and hope for Lady of Fortunate watch over me, what is the meaning of that? It is one life you just never die? You understand what death is right???? It is one life, its just never meet it's dead end, such as an unprepared level 7 team run into the final boss and can't do nothing but reload, you can't do it in trial of iron, because game auto save your data after area change, for more proof, game will auto save before fighting Thaos, if reload the game you will see Thaos is summing titans and fights will begin soon, what is the meaning of this auto save? They are creating your dead end! And give limited chance for you to try! Also for a correction, S/L won't makes game easier, it makes game simplify, if the save is deleted, all I have to do is restart and do exact thing I just did, and hope for Lady of Fortunate watch over me, what is the meaning of that? The difficulty of Trial of Iron is finding tactics that work as consistently/reliably as possible. Exploiting to avoid the save deletion aspect circumvents that, allowing you to do things that may only work when you have favorable rolls and whatnot. Yes, bad RNG could end a Trial of Iron run, but the trick is mitigating that factor, not reloading to get good RNG yourself. And again you missed the point. Of course my character can be dead, without careful planning. Rush into a small room full of enemy and can't get out. Have wrong selection in the dialogue to persuade enemies don't butcher my character alive and start an unleaveable fight that could never win. I AVOID them, there are always choices, which sending your character to an absolute high stated and must be killed monster, then let luck control it all and watch it gone dust before you even you have a chance to win is a silly choice. Trial of iron should make players planning their quest progress, they should know where they should go, where they do not stand a chance, not when you prepared everything to face a quest target and it jumps up to your face and "Ah da!" Crit, alright your save game is done. If they really don't want people to S/L, change it, save data will be deleted if quit to main page during fight, and I think no one would argue it anymore, or maybe they will... Edited April 7, 2015 by Emeus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDemiurg Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) I do agree with combat reset killing the point of Ironman, but I don't believe anyone has done a 100% legit triple crown solo run by its true definition. Like the Taos fight, you need the trap to hit for a lot of suggester tactics that are based around it. Guess what? Even with max mechanics it can miss. There are other places like that throughout the game where you still need luck. If you multiply the chances of you succeeding in every such instance I believe the end result is quite low. And I don't think many people have the stomach or time to run it multiple times. I also don't think abusing bad pathing AI is legit. Edited April 7, 2015 by MadDemiurg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceranai Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 "Bushido is realized in the presence of death. This means choosing death whenever there is a choice between life and death. There is no other reasoning." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai "I would prefer to fail with honor than win by cheating." - Sophocles The Trial of Iron mode has been presented in Pillars of Eternity as a special, optional challenge for players who wish to undertake it. This mode restricts players to a single save game. If the party is ever defeated, the save game is deleted. We do not believe it is necessary for us to police how players manipulate their save game data. You may choose to play Trial of Iron in whatever manner you see fit. However, I would like to take this opportunity to ask you to consider the following: what does it mean to achieve victory in Trial of Iron if the spirit of the challenge has been broken? What does defeat mean if you have pursued victory in the spirit of the challenge? Think upon this and act as your conscience dictates. Thanks for reading. J.E. Sawyer Director and Lead Designer And so there is no manipulated save game data, no cheating, but challenge for ever circumstances you may pass or may not, personally I do not see anything wrong. "If the party is ever defeated, the save game is deleted" By quiting and reloading when things get bad you give yourself infinite lives, again solo PoTD is still very impressive but i dont see how you dont see that save scumming makes it easier by a factor of ten... its quite clear that triple crown is supposed to be for those sadistic insane people who want to win the game with one character, no help and one life. What is the difference between your game and a game that had trial of iron turned off? You reloaded anything that killed you or anything you did wrong, surely you see that the point of trial of iron is you get one chance? It is one life, its just never meet it's dead end, such as an unprepared level 7 team run into the final boss and can't do nothing but reload, you can't do it in trial of iron, because game auto save your data after area change, for more proof, game will auto save before fighting Thaos, if reload the game you will see Thaos is summing titans and fights will begin soon, what is the meaning of this auto save? They are creating your dead end! And give limited chance for you to try! Also for a correction, S/L won't makes game easier, it makes game simplify, if the save is deleted, all I have to do is restart and do exact thing I just did, and hope for Lady of Fortunate watch over me, what is the meaning of that? It is one life you just never die? You understand what death is right???? It is one life, its just never meet it's dead end, such as an unprepared level 7 team run into the final boss and can't do nothing but reload, you can't do it in trial of iron, because game auto save your data after area change, for more proof, game will auto save before fighting Thaos, if reload the game you will see Thaos is summing titans and fights will begin soon, what is the meaning of this auto save? They are creating your dead end! And give limited chance for you to try! Also for a correction, S/L won't makes game easier, it makes game simplify, if the save is deleted, all I have to do is restart and do exact thing I just did, and hope for Lady of Fortunate watch over me, what is the meaning of that? The difficulty of Trial of Iron is finding tactics that work as consistently/reliably as possible. Exploiting to avoid the save deletion aspect circumvents that, allowing you to do things that may only work when you have favorable rolls and whatnot. Yes, bad RNG could end a Trial of Iron run, but the trick is mitigating that factor, not reloading to get good RNG yourself. And again you missed the point. Of course my character can be dead, without careful planning. Rush into a small room full of enemy and can't get out. Have wrong selection in the dialogue to persuade enemies don't butcher my character alive and start an unleaveable fight that could never win. I AVOID them, there are always choices, which sending your character to an absolute high stated and must be killed monster, then let luck control it all and watch it gone dust before you even you have a chance to win is a silly choice. Trial of iron should make players planning their quest progress, they should know where they should go, where they do not stand a chance, not when you prepared everything to face a quest target and it jumps up to your face and "Ah da!" Crit, alright your save game is done. If they really don't want people to S/L, change it, save data will be deleted if quit to main page during fight, and I think no one would argue it anymore, or maybe they will... Yes so a more valid trial of iron run would be to have two save games running in parallel. Three crowns is supposed to be the most hardcore impossible achievement to get because you are supposed to only get it if you have a PERFECT solo run on the highest difficulty. The only time i would accept using this cheat would be when you encounter bugs. The point being that your run was far from perfect so you only really have two crowns. I get the impression you just refuse to accept trial of iron for what it is. If you were supposed to be allowed to go back to your last autosave then the save file wouldnt delete when you die, as it is you have to do something that to everyone else reading this thread is obviously exploiting a flaw in the games saving settings to avoid your run ending. It would be really great if any devs reading this could confirm that for three crowns the ENTIRE POINT of trial of iron is to avoid save scumming. Hell play a paradox game, ironman mode in EU4 or CK2 is ONLY different in that it doesnt allow save scumming, and in those games the achievement are only active if you are playing ironman because they realize that no matter how hard something is if you get infinite lives it becomes possible for anyone to do. RNG is a huge factor in those games too, get a crap king and you spend the next 50 years wishing he would die. Again you have got two crowns which is still very impressive but you have totally missed the point of trial of iron mode. The point isnt to keep rerolling until you crit every hit and every enemy spell miss and never make a mistake. The point is being able to deal with these things when they happen. Its like EU4s three mountains acheivement (wait trial of iron, ironman, three mountains, thre crowns are you seeing a pattern??) Where the devs explicitly stated they have tried to make three mountains impossible to achieve which is why when someone does figure out how to break the game and get it everyone treats that person like a god. Three mountains is probably more imossible than three crowns tbh, you start on the island of Ryuku with a dirt poor island province with no borders to expand into, as one of the worst technology groups and the worst religion (animist). And from that position you have to CONQUER THE WORLD to get the achievement. Three crowns is similarly supposed to be the pinnacle of achievement in this game and the fact is that save scumming makes it much easier than it is supposed to be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceranai Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I do agree with combat reset killing the point of Ironman, but I don't believe anyone has done a 100% legit triple crown solo run by its true definition. Like the Taos fight, you need the trap to hit for a lot of suggester tactics that are based around it. Guess what? Even with max mechanics it can miss. There are other places like that throughout the game where you still need luck. If you multiply the chances of you succeeding in every such instance I believe the end result is quite low. And I don't think many people have the stomach or time to run it multiple times. I also don't think abusing bad pathing AI is legit. Ive gotten as far as halfway through act 2 with a legit three crowns... then i died and had to start over again... god that was depressing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDemiurg Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I do agree with combat reset killing the point of Ironman, but I don't believe anyone has done a 100% legit triple crown solo run by its true definition. Like the Taos fight, you need the trap to hit for a lot of suggester tactics that are based around it. Guess what? Even with max mechanics it can miss. There are other places like that throughout the game where you still need luck. If you multiply the chances of you succeeding in every such instance I believe the end result is quite low. And I don't think many people have the stomach or time to run it multiple times. I also don't think abusing bad pathing AI is legit. Ive gotten as far as halfway through act 2 with a legit three crowns... then i died and had to start over again... god that was depressing I died at the start of act 2 in a random fight. I didn't use two parallel playthroughs tactic though. I don't think I'm doing it again. Not because it's impossible, I'm just not masochistic enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceranai Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I do agree with combat reset killing the point of Ironman, but I don't believe anyone has done a 100% legit triple crown solo run by its true definition. Like the Taos fight, you need the trap to hit for a lot of suggester tactics that are based around it. Guess what? Even with max mechanics it can miss. There are other places like that throughout the game where you still need luck. If you multiply the chances of you succeeding in every such instance I believe the end result is quite low. And I don't think many people have the stomach or time to run it multiple times. I also don't think abusing bad pathing AI is legit. Ive gotten as far as halfway through act 2 with a legit three crowns... then i died and had to start over again... god that was depressing I died at the start of act 2 in a random fight. I didn't use two parallel playthroughs tactic though. I don't think I'm doing it again. Not because it's impossible, I'm just not masochistic enough. I guess im just a bit OCD that way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incendax Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Two parallel playthroughs seem to be the wisest course of action. I got the idea from Ceranai when he mentioned it a while back, and I've been making good progress on my own solo triple crown Chanter. They definitely seem to be the most viable way to mitigate terrible RNG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceranai Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Two parallel playthroughs seem to be the wisest course of action. I got the idea from Ceranai when he mentioned it a while back, and I've been making good progress on my own solo triple crown Chanter. They definitely seem to be the most viable way to mitigate terrible RNG. indeed, i can reliably corner myself and block with summons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emeus Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) "Bushido is realized in the presence of death. This means choosing death whenever there is a choice between life and death. There is no other reasoning." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai "I would prefer to fail with honor than win by cheating." - Sophocles The Trial of Iron mode has been presented in Pillars of Eternity as a special, optional challenge for players who wish to undertake it. This mode restricts players to a single save game. If the party is ever defeated, the save game is deleted. We do not believe it is necessary for us to police how players manipulate their save game data. You may choose to play Trial of Iron in whatever manner you see fit. However, I would like to take this opportunity to ask you to consider the following: what does it mean to achieve victory in Trial of Iron if the spirit of the challenge has been broken? What does defeat mean if you have pursued victory in the spirit of the challenge? Think upon this and act as your conscience dictates. Thanks for reading. J.E. Sawyer Director and Lead Designer And so there is no manipulated save game data, no cheating, but challenge for ever circumstances you may pass or may not, personally I do not see anything wrong. "If the party is ever defeated, the save game is deleted" By quiting and reloading when things get bad you give yourself infinite lives, again solo PoTD is still very impressive but i dont see how you dont see that save scumming makes it easier by a factor of ten... its quite clear that triple crown is supposed to be for those sadistic insane people who want to win the game with one character, no help and one life. What is the difference between your game and a game that had trial of iron turned off? You reloaded anything that killed you or anything you did wrong, surely you see that the point of trial of iron is you get one chance? It is one life, its just never meet it's dead end, such as an unprepared level 7 team run into the final boss and can't do nothing but reload, you can't do it in trial of iron, because game auto save your data after area change, for more proof, game will auto save before fighting Thaos, if reload the game you will see Thaos is summing titans and fights will begin soon, what is the meaning of this auto save? They are creating your dead end! And give limited chance for you to try! Also for a correction, S/L won't makes game easier, it makes game simplify, if the save is deleted, all I have to do is restart and do exact thing I just did, and hope for Lady of Fortunate watch over me, what is the meaning of that? It is one life you just never die? You understand what death is right???? It is one life, its just never meet it's dead end, such as an unprepared level 7 team run into the final boss and can't do nothing but reload, you can't do it in trial of iron, because game auto save your data after area change, for more proof, game will auto save before fighting Thaos, if reload the game you will see Thaos is summing titans and fights will begin soon, what is the meaning of this auto save? They are creating your dead end! And give limited chance for you to try! Also for a correction, S/L won't makes game easier, it makes game simplify, if the save is deleted, all I have to do is restart and do exact thing I just did, and hope for Lady of Fortunate watch over me, what is the meaning of that? The difficulty of Trial of Iron is finding tactics that work as consistently/reliably as possible. Exploiting to avoid the save deletion aspect circumvents that, allowing you to do things that may only work when you have favorable rolls and whatnot. Yes, bad RNG could end a Trial of Iron run, but the trick is mitigating that factor, not reloading to get good RNG yourself. And again you missed the point. Of course my character can be dead, without careful planning. Rush into a small room full of enemy and can't get out. Have wrong selection in the dialogue to persuade enemies don't butcher my character alive and start an unleaveable fight that could never win. I AVOID them, there are always choices, which sending your character to an absolute high stated and must be killed monster, then let luck control it all and watch it gone dust before you even you have a chance to win is a silly choice. Trial of iron should make players planning their quest progress, they should know where they should go, where they do not stand a chance, not when you prepared everything to face a quest target and it jumps up to your face and "Ah da!" Crit, alright your save game is done. If they really don't want people to S/L, change it, save data will be deleted if quit to main page during fight, and I think no one would argue it anymore, or maybe they will... Yes so a more valid trial of iron run would be to have two save games running in parallel. Three crowns is supposed to be the most hardcore impossible achievement to get because you are supposed to only get it if you have a PERFECT solo run on the highest difficulty. The only time i would accept using this cheat would be when you encounter bugs. The point being that your run was far from perfect so you only really have two crowns. I get the impression you just refuse to accept trial of iron for what it is. If you were supposed to be allowed to go back to your last autosave then the save file wouldnt delete when you die, as it is you have to do something that to everyone else reading this thread is obviously exploiting a flaw in the games saving settings to avoid your run ending. It would be really great if any devs reading this could confirm that for three crowns the ENTIRE POINT of trial of iron is to avoid save scumming. Hell play a paradox game, ironman mode in EU4 or CK2 is ONLY different in that it doesnt allow save scumming, and in those games the achievement are only active if you are playing ironman because they realize that no matter how hard something is if you get infinite lives it becomes possible for anyone to do. RNG is a huge factor in those games too, get a crap king and you spend the next 50 years wishing he would die. Again you have got two crowns which is still very impressive but you have totally missed the point of trial of iron mode. The point isnt to keep rerolling until you crit every hit and every enemy spell miss and never make a mistake. The point is being able to deal with these things when they happen. Its like EU4s three mountains acheivement (wait trial of iron, ironman, three mountains, thre crowns are you seeing a pattern??) Where the devs explicitly stated they have tried to make three mountains impossible to achieve which is why when someone does figure out how to break the game and get it everyone treats that person like a god. Three mountains is probably more imossible than three crowns tbh, you start on the island of Ryuku with a dirt poor island province with no borders to expand into, as one of the worst technology groups and the worst religion (animist). And from that position you have to CONQUER THE WORLD to get the achievement. Three crowns is similarly supposed to be the pinnacle of achievement in this game and the fact is that save scumming makes it much easier than it is supposed to be. I never played the games you mentioned so I can not comment them. I don't think running two save games will going to help anything in PoTE triple crown, one could be simply died because of bad luck, if someone want to run another playthrough then perhaps it will keep dying for bad luck multiple times that takes a long time to be paralleled to the original save. Although, even I never played the game you mentioned, but I take this "crap king" is a random spawn creature, yes? But there are no random spawn creatures in PoTE, they are always there, and their states are mostly the same, their defenses are high enough to make a character miss several times, and that is usual in path of the dammed, the only thing to "CONQUER" it is the "PERFECT" luck you mentioned. "The point isnt to keep rerolling until you crit every hit and every enemy spell miss and never make a mistake. The point is being able to deal with these things when they happen." And so I deal with it, I don't simply load the save game for a single missed spell, I tried to advantage, if its in a big map then the character could run, if its a ruin then the character could confuse enemy and leave combat, or if the character hurt bad then he could rest and try again. But what can you do if you can't leaving a room while you can't get rid of combat, and your tactics are keep fail because enemy's hard states? Die, and no tactics or actions could save you from that. Some how I find out this arguing is become meaningless(Gee! I got the wrong word in the whole time! Sorry for that), you are worshiping your luck based triple crown legendary, I however obliterate the worse situation by S/L and try it again see if I can pass it, both are challenge for me, but the starting point is different, we may never come to have a common view. I'll finish the rest walkthrough tomorrow, and I think we should end here. Edited April 7, 2015 by Emeus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odd Hermit Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) I think almost any class can handle enemies they get the jump on with +move speed and a ranged weapon. Chanter, cipher, rogue, etc. it doesn't really matter if you're just taking weaker enemies 1 by 1. It's when the games drops just enemies in a circle around you that you're in trouble it seems like, and I believe there are a fair number of those in the main quest line. Rogue just has the best escape tool for that currently. Cipher isn't bad due to ringleader but if it misses you can be fubar. Hell I suppose a Wizard could conceivably do it, though I obviously wouldn't choose them due to spells/rest limitation. But what can you do if you can't leaving a room while you can't get rid of combat, and your tactics are keep fail because enemy's hard states? Die, and no tactics or actions could save you from that. You could... accept your defeat because it's iron man. That's the whole point, and what everyone keeps trying to tell you. You chose the wrong path, the wrong items, the wrong dialogue choice, the wrong whatever and are supposed to suffer the consequences for your lack of preparation. It's not supposed to be fair. It obviously requires pre-knowledge of some things. But you can easily cheese if you allow yourself infinite reloads. Iron Man is intended to prevent spamming a tactic until it succeeds. You're supposed to find the tactics that reliably work which is much more difficult. Essentially your game was a double crown solo, be happy with that. It's still an achievement. Edited April 7, 2015 by Odd Hermit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knownastherat Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) You will not enter any room in the first place without knowing the fight is winnable. As you correctly noted encounter are scripted. Like bear cave. And if luck is bad, enter room again. --- edit: this could be thread about advanced stuff and we are arguing how auto-saves work. Who invented those achievement I don't know. Edited April 7, 2015 by knownastherat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceranai Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 "Bushido is realized in the presence of death. This means choosing death whenever there is a choice between life and death. There is no other reasoning." - Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai "I would prefer to fail with honor than win by cheating." - Sophocles The Trial of Iron mode has been presented in Pillars of Eternity as a special, optional challenge for players who wish to undertake it. This mode restricts players to a single save game. If the party is ever defeated, the save game is deleted. We do not believe it is necessary for us to police how players manipulate their save game data. You may choose to play Trial of Iron in whatever manner you see fit. However, I would like to take this opportunity to ask you to consider the following: what does it mean to achieve victory in Trial of Iron if the spirit of the challenge has been broken? What does defeat mean if you have pursued victory in the spirit of the challenge? Think upon this and act as your conscience dictates. Thanks for reading. J.E. Sawyer Director and Lead Designer And so there is no manipulated save game data, no cheating, but challenge for ever circumstances you may pass or may not, personally I do not see anything wrong. "If the party is ever defeated, the save game is deleted" By quiting and reloading when things get bad you give yourself infinite lives, again solo PoTD is still very impressive but i dont see how you dont see that save scumming makes it easier by a factor of ten... its quite clear that triple crown is supposed to be for those sadistic insane people who want to win the game with one character, no help and one life. What is the difference between your game and a game that had trial of iron turned off? You reloaded anything that killed you or anything you did wrong, surely you see that the point of trial of iron is you get one chance? It is one life, its just never meet it's dead end, such as an unprepared level 7 team run into the final boss and can't do nothing but reload, you can't do it in trial of iron, because game auto save your data after area change, for more proof, game will auto save before fighting Thaos, if reload the game you will see Thaos is summing titans and fights will begin soon, what is the meaning of this auto save? They are creating your dead end! And give limited chance for you to try! Also for a correction, S/L won't makes game easier, it makes game simplify, if the save is deleted, all I have to do is restart and do exact thing I just did, and hope for Lady of Fortunate watch over me, what is the meaning of that? It is one life you just never die? You understand what death is right???? It is one life, its just never meet it's dead end, such as an unprepared level 7 team run into the final boss and can't do nothing but reload, you can't do it in trial of iron, because game auto save your data after area change, for more proof, game will auto save before fighting Thaos, if reload the game you will see Thaos is summing titans and fights will begin soon, what is the meaning of this auto save? They are creating your dead end! And give limited chance for you to try! Also for a correction, S/L won't makes game easier, it makes game simplify, if the save is deleted, all I have to do is restart and do exact thing I just did, and hope for Lady of Fortunate watch over me, what is the meaning of that? The difficulty of Trial of Iron is finding tactics that work as consistently/reliably as possible. Exploiting to avoid the save deletion aspect circumvents that, allowing you to do things that may only work when you have favorable rolls and whatnot. Yes, bad RNG could end a Trial of Iron run, but the trick is mitigating that factor, not reloading to get good RNG yourself. And again you missed the point. Of course my character can be dead, without careful planning. Rush into a small room full of enemy and can't get out. Have wrong selection in the dialogue to persuade enemies don't butcher my character alive and start an unleaveable fight that could never win. I AVOID them, there are always choices, which sending your character to an absolute high stated and must be killed monster, then let luck control it all and watch it gone dust before you even you have a chance to win is a silly choice. Trial of iron should make players planning their quest progress, they should know where they should go, where they do not stand a chance, not when you prepared everything to face a quest target and it jumps up to your face and "Ah da!" Crit, alright your save game is done. If they really don't want people to S/L, change it, save data will be deleted if quit to main page during fight, and I think no one would argue it anymore, or maybe they will... Yes so a more valid trial of iron run would be to have two save games running in parallel. Three crowns is supposed to be the most hardcore impossible achievement to get because you are supposed to only get it if you have a PERFECT solo run on the highest difficulty. The only time i would accept using this cheat would be when you encounter bugs. The point being that your run was far from perfect so you only really have two crowns. I get the impression you just refuse to accept trial of iron for what it is. If you were supposed to be allowed to go back to your last autosave then the save file wouldnt delete when you die, as it is you have to do something that to everyone else reading this thread is obviously exploiting a flaw in the games saving settings to avoid your run ending. It would be really great if any devs reading this could confirm that for three crowns the ENTIRE POINT of trial of iron is to avoid save scumming. Hell play a paradox game, ironman mode in EU4 or CK2 is ONLY different in that it doesnt allow save scumming, and in those games the achievement are only active if you are playing ironman because they realize that no matter how hard something is if you get infinite lives it becomes possible for anyone to do. RNG is a huge factor in those games too, get a crap king and you spend the next 50 years wishing he would die. Again you have got two crowns which is still very impressive but you have totally missed the point of trial of iron mode. The point isnt to keep rerolling until you crit every hit and every enemy spell miss and never make a mistake. The point is being able to deal with these things when they happen. Its like EU4s three mountains acheivement (wait trial of iron, ironman, three mountains, thre crowns are you seeing a pattern??) Where the devs explicitly stated they have tried to make three mountains impossible to achieve which is why when someone does figure out how to break the game and get it everyone treats that person like a god. Three mountains is probably more imossible than three crowns tbh, you start on the island of Ryuku with a dirt poor island province with no borders to expand into, as one of the worst technology groups and the worst religion (animist). And from that position you have to CONQUER THE WORLD to get the achievement. Three crowns is similarly supposed to be the pinnacle of achievement in this game and the fact is that save scumming makes it much easier than it is supposed to be. I never played the games you mentioned so I can not comment them. I don't think running two save games will going to help anything in PoTE triple crown, one could be simply died because of bad luck, if someone want to run another playthrough then perhaps it will keep dying for bad luck multiple times that takes a long time to be paralleled to the original save. Although, even I never played the game you mentioned, but I take this "crap king" is a random spawn creature, yes? But there are no random spawn creatures in PoTE, they are always there, and their states are mostly the same, their defenses are high enough to make a character miss several times, and that is usual in path of the dammed, the only thing to "CONQUER" it is the "PERFECT" luck you mentioned. "The point isnt to keep rerolling until you crit every hit and every enemy spell miss and never make a mistake. The point is being able to deal with these things when they happen." And so I deal with it, I don't simply load the save game for a single missing spell, I tried to advantage, if its in a big map then the character could run, if its a ruin then the character could confuse enemy and leave combat, or if the character hurt bad then he could rest and try again. But what can you do if you can't leaving a room while you can't get rid of combat, and your tactics are keep fail because enemy's hard states? Die, and no tactics or actions could save you for that. Some how I find out this arguing is become meaningless(Gee! I got the wrong word in the whole time! Sorry for that), you are worshiping your luck based triple crown legendary, I however obliterate the worse situation by S/L and try it again see if I can pass it, both are challenge for me, but the starting point is different, we may never come to have a common view. I'll finish the rest walkthrough tomorrow, and I think we should end here. No its a grand strategy game where you play as a county from 1444-1820, most things in the game run on military, diplomatic or administrative points you generate the majority of these from your current ruler. If your previous king dies when your heir is like 5 and your heir is 0/0/0 you will basically be gimped for the next 50 years, the best parallel here would be if your trap fails but you still win the fight. I cant speak as to what the devs had in mind when they made the achievement but i would bet my balls it did not include reloading any fights where things go south. The point is that the point of trial of iron is that you dont get any restarts or extra lives. Playing trial of iron and save scumming is like playing PoTD but modding everyone's stats back down to normal difficulty, or playing solo but halving the number of monsters on the map, if you are going to reload then how is it in any way more difficult than wit trial of iron off (even if you restrict yourself to usng autosaves only) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceranai Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) I think almost any class can handle enemies they get the jump on with +move speed and a ranged weapon. Chanter, cipher, rogue, etc. it doesn't really matter if you're just taking weaker enemies 1 by 1. It's when the games drops just enemies in a circle around you that you're in trouble it seems like, and I believe there are a fair number of those in the main quest line. Rogue just has the best escape tool for that currently. Cipher isn't bad due to ringleader but if it misses you can be fubar. Hell I suppose a Wizard could conceivably do it, though I obviously wouldn't choose them due to spells/rest limitation. But what can you do if you can't leaving a room while you can't get rid of combat, and your tactics are keep fail because enemy's hard states? Die, and no tactics or actions could save you from that. You could... accept your defeat because it's iron man. That's the whole point, and what everyone keeps trying to tell you. You chose the wrong path, the wrong items, the wrong dialogue choice, the wrong whatever and are supposed to suffer the consequences for your lack of preparation. It's not supposed to be fair. It obviously requires pre-knowledge of some things. But you can easily cheese if you allow yourself infinite reloads. Iron Man is intended to prevent spamming a tactic until it succeeds. You're supposed to find the tactics that reliably work which is much more difficult. Essentially your game was a double crown solo, be happy with that. It's still an achievement. exactly this, this 100 times, I just don't get how he doesn't get that reloading when you fail defeats the ENTIRE POINT of playing trial of iron in the first place. Also jsut a small note we don't know whether or not other 3 crowns we have seen used this trick but OP listed it as essential to his strategy, in case anyone thinks I am being unfair. Edited April 7, 2015 by Ceranai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDemiurg Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) Thing is, there are fights you can't escape because you need, well, actually win them. And if enemy has even like 1% chance of say paralyzing you and it succeeds you're screwed. So there's no tactic that works 100% reliably on PotD solo. You're still at mercy of luck to certain extent, not matter how much you prepare. As I said, I'm not arguing that combat reset is not in the spirit of Ironman though. As for soloing with wizards or other casters with per rest spells- I think its very doable, more so than most martial classes. For PotD solo you'll want to abuse as much as you can, so your /rest spells become /encounter essentially. Edited April 7, 2015 by MadDemiurg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knownastherat Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 In other words, the achievement for Iron Man is achievement for random factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDemiurg Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) Pretty much. Well, for party ironman you get a lot more room for errors and bad rng, so its possible to minimise the chance of fail to almost nonexistent (but it is still there, you would just have to roll say 50 zeroes in a row as a rough illustration, while the enemy rolls 50 100s, which is unlikely but possible). However in solo all it can take is one bad roll. There's little room for error or bad luck. Edited April 7, 2015 by MadDemiurg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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