Is tactical thinking dispensable?

[Zidster]

Hi folks,

 

I'm playing PoE on Hard difficulty and really enjoyed it so far. But what really botheres me is that the game feels pretty easy to me. Until now I thought "Well, you must be one hell of an IE player, so probably the game will be a real challange for you once you hit Path of Exile (or how's it called, the Hardcore mode?)"

 

But yesterday I came across a fight in the warriors guild of Elmshore. Since the fight was foreseeable, I positioned my crew and thought of specific tasks for all of my characters... Eder had to block the door, Aloth, standing in a corner with my custom Ranger, would support him and take out the enemys that rile up behind, my PC and Pelegina had to battle the guild leader and his nearby allies, Durance kept switching between fighting and healing / buffing (which wasnt necessesary though). I was pretty happy that the battle turned out exactly as planned, without any casulties whatsoever. Than I got interessted and asked myself. "Well, how would that battle have played out if I didnt do any tactics whatsoever?" I reloaded, started the fight and just made my whole party attack the guild leader... without any further need to instruct my party members, the fight was won only with my pet going down and Durance receiving slightly more damage.

 

I really felt disappointed by that. How can it be, no matter if the fight was an easy or a hard one, all my tactical planing and usage of skills and spells, in the end translated to a dieing pet (which in the end just stood up again) and some more damage taken by Durance (which he just regenerated).

 

On other occassions, I totally got run down in the first attempt and mastered battles on the second try when I took some positions. But overall, I didnt have any challenging fights. How do feel about this? Do you feel the need for tactical thinking is too shallow in this game, or do you like it?

[Ceranai]

Hi folks,

 

I'm playing PoE on Hard difficulty and really enjoyed it so far. But what really botheres me is that the game feels pretty easy to me. Until now I thought "Well, you must be one hell of an IE player, so probably the game will be a real challange for you once you hit Path of Exile (or how's it called, the Hardcore mode?)"

 

But yesterday I came across a fight in the warriors guild of Elmshore. Since the fight was foreseeable, I positioned my crew and thought of specific tasks for all of my characters... Eder had to block the door, Aloth, standing in a corner with my custom Ranger, would support him and take out the enemys that rile up behind, my PC and Pelegina had to battle the guild leader and his nearby allies, Durance kept switching between fighting and healing / buffing (which wasnt necessesary though). I was pretty happy that the battle turned out exactly as planned, without any casulties whatsoever. Than I got interessted and asked myself. "Well, how would that battle have played out if I didnt do any tactics whatsoever?" I reloaded, started the fight and just made my whole party attack the guild leader... without any further need to instruct my party members, the fight was won only with my pet going down and Durance receiving slightly more damage.

 

I really felt disappointed by that. How can it be, no matter if the fight was an easy or a hard one, all my tactical planing and usage of skills and spells, in the end translated to a dieing pet (which in the end just stood up again) and some more damage taken by Durance (which he just regenerated).

 

On other occassions, I totally got run down in the first attempt and mastered battles on the second try when I took some positions. But overall, I didnt have any challenging fights. How do feel about this? Do you feel the need for tactical thinking is too shallow in this game, or do you like it?

Playing with a full party on hard is actually what i would call normal difficulty. If you want a real challenge restrict yourself to a smaller party, thins become much more tactical when you dont have dedicated healers, dpsers and tanks

[RevBlue]

I find tactics definitely make a difference, for me at least. Maybe you were over-leveled for that encounter?

[Luckmann]

There's not much to the tactics beyond scouting and positioning properly, no. Before someone feels the need to defend the game here, let me make it clear that PoE is not a bad game, not by a long shot. But there is really no tactical or strategic depth to it at all, and combat, whilst I personally have found myself enjoying much of it, is about as reactive as a loaf of bread.

Even Path of the Damned (the highest difficulty, not to be confused with the Hardcore/Ironman mode, whose name escapes me at the moment) only really just play up the rather simple aspects of combat, and doesn't really change anything in how you behave (or rather, should behave). It reinforces the issues, rather than forcing you to adapt or play more tactically.

[Ceranai]

 

 

Hi folks,

 

I'm playing PoE on Hard difficulty and really enjoyed it so far. But what really botheres me is that the game feels pretty easy to me. Until now I thought "Well, you must be one hell of an IE player, so probably the game will be a real challange for you once you hit Path of Exile (or how's it called, the Hardcore mode?)"

 

But yesterday I came across a fight in the warriors guild of Elmshore. Since the fight was foreseeable, I positioned my crew and thought of specific tasks for all of my characters... Eder had to block the door, Aloth, standing in a corner with my custom Ranger, would support him and take out the enemys that rile up behind, my PC and Pelegina had to battle the guild leader and his nearby allies, Durance kept switching between fighting and healing / buffing (which wasnt necessesary though). I was pretty happy that the battle turned out exactly as planned, without any casulties whatsoever. Than I got interessted and asked myself. "Well, how would that battle have played out if I didnt do any tactics whatsoever?" I reloaded, started the fight and just made my whole party attack the guild leader... without any further need to instruct my party members, the fight was won only with my pet going down and Durance receiving slightly more damage.

 

I really felt disappointed by that. How can it be, no matter if the fight was an easy or a hard one, all my tactical planing and usage of skills and spells, in the end translated to a dieing pet (which in the end just stood up again) and some more damage taken by Durance (which he just regenerated).

 

On other occassions, I totally got run down in the first attempt and mastered battles on the second try when I took some positions. But overall, I didnt have any challenging fights. How do feel about this? Do you feel the need for tactical thinking is too shallow in this game, or do you like it?

Playing with a full party on hard is actually what i would call normal difficulty. If you want a real challenge restrict yourself to a smaller party, thins become much more tactical when you dont have dedicated healers, dpsers and tanks

 

Should he also cover his eyes and get drunk to further the difficulty?

Artificially restricting oneself isn't a part of game difficulty. 

If smaller party should be a part of higher difficulty, then the number of comapnions in a party should be restricted by the game.

 

Sadly PoE doesn't provide anything in a tactic department other than:

 

- have a tank up front

- assure higher damage than enemy can heal

- assure higher healing than enemy can damage

 

Want real tactical combat play XCOM games.

 

I wasnt saying that he should just keep handicapping himself i was just saying that tactical play comes into effect much more when you have a smaller party, as in you have to optmise you gear etc. I also agree the game could use more mechanics to the boss fights. If you want a more tactics based game sadly this is not a shining example but I was just saying there are things you can do to make it less easy, especially in solo play you really have to plan out most of your fights, things like traps, scrolls and figurines become non-optional

Edited April 5, 2015 by Ceranai

[Zidster]

Exactly, I dont feel the need to limit myself only to have a harder time.

 

Just had an epic fight, though, in the Ogre cave where the druids spam Insect Swarm and stuff like that, had to try like 20 times and in the end one spell made the difference. I tried out several spells, just saved with beeing able to level up Aloth and giving him level 5 spell, and it was the AoE sleep spell (kinda BGesque if you ask me) which saved the day. So I'm really positive that with some balancing this game can become actually pretty challenging

[Ceranai]

Exactly, I dont feel the need to limit myself only to have a harder time.

 

Just had an epic fight, though, in the Ogre cave where the druids spam Insect Swarm and stuff like that, had to try like 20 times and in the end one spell made the difference. I tried out several spells, just saved with beeing able to level up Aloth and giving him level 5 spell, and it was the AoE sleep spell (kinda BGesque if you ask me) which saved the day. So I'm really positive that with some balancing this game can become actually pretty challenging

Im not saying you should

 

but if its a challenge you are after solo PoTD is so challenging we have a whole thread full of min maxers and the first like 6 pages is just us trying to get past act one lol

[Zidster]

If I wanted to play a single character RPG, well there would be many great choices. I simply love party RPGs, especially the ones which let you create your own party, so PoE was a nobrainer to me. I dont need hyper super tactical thinking, I'm quite fond with having to asign a front line and a back line, managing the spells (though most of the time my front line would seal the deal regardless of which spells I land).

 

I really love this game and was just curious about your experiences in this regard. I didnt even finish and yet created another save on Path of the Damned with a whole custom party. This is really challenging, but so far it seems my party is only getting kicked in the ass by a few type of enemies. Most of the time some of them go down, I just try to win every battle without having someone drop, which is really challenging to me. I think on Path of the Damned a character who gets knocked down should immediately be crippled, with the effect only beeing curable by a large fee.

[Ceranai]

If I wanted to play a single character RPG, well there would be many great choices. I simply love party RPGs, especially the ones which let you create your own party, so PoE was a nobrainer to me. I dont need hyper super tactical thinking, I'm quite fond with having to asign a front line and a back line, managing the spells (though most of the time my front line would seal the deal regardless of which spells I land).

 

I really love this game and was just curious about your experiences in this regard. I didnt even finish and yet created another save on Path of the Damned with a whole custom party. This is really challenging, but so far it seems my party is only getting kicked in the ass by a few type of enemies. Most of the time some of them go down, I just try to win every battle without having someone drop, which is really challenging to me. I think on Path of the Damned a character who gets knocked down should immediately be crippled, with the effect only beeing curable by a large fee.

That would be a great idea actually, having unlimted lives is way too easy.

[moonjog]

 

 

"Well, how would that battle have played out if I didnt do any tactics whatsoever?"

 

What level were you mate and with what gear? I had a save around here at level 6 on hard, just had whole party attack Simoc and just had a 6 for 1 trade, him for my whole party.

 

Anyway I'm not going to overstate the importance of tactics in this game but that just never happens for me.

[Emptiness]

Being able to win a fight without tactics doesn't mean that tactics are worthless, it just means your party has outclassed that fight.  Find a tougher fight and you'll need your tactics.

[Zidster]

Well those tough fights sure are hard to find. I have played most subquests, but most likely missed out on some, when coming to Twinelms my party was like level 9. I think this is kinda like you play, if you run to harder areas of the game early on of course they are going to be harder... I just feel like the "normal path", where you take things step by step and do most sidequests, is way to easy. And honestley, hearing that you are able to win this fight with tactics with a level 6 party just proves that. I mean you should get absolutely demolished with a midlevel party in and end level area.

[moonjog]

hearing that you are able to win this fight with tactics with a level 6 party just proves that. I mean you should get absolutely demolished with a midlevel party in and end level area.

 

Doesn't that just prove tactics is more important when you don't grind? In this example if tactics wasn't important then no matter what would've happened I would just have died because I was underleveled, which means you were overleveled.

 

I mean my point should show that because I play as conservatively as possible I can beat a ~lvl 8 (?) fighting from 2 sides. My first playthrough I deliberately did not go do too many quests so on my 2nd playthrough I can finish more of them, and I also completely avoided the other companions besides the starting five. Playing this savegame yes I am getting rekt so hard especially in Noonfrost I have to depend on luck and AI patrol patterns to isolate / get more favorable fights. I'm playing this save and Aloth and Durance keeps getting rekt in 2 - 4 hits; it's a nightmare every time I'm facing any wizards, and there is no counter to confusion but dodging the AI's spell at this point.

 

edit: I got used to it, luring and doing pincer attacks for some harder mobs

Edited April 5, 2015 by moonjog

[Zidster]

I wouldnt call "doing quests" "grinding". It's just that in my first example, the tactics didn't make a big difference. I should've wooped even faster without any problems, but it just took as long as simply clicking the main mob and waiting it out.

 

I just killed the Dragon also, beeing level 10. I mean... have you ever faced a dragon in BG? I wooped their asses at the end but the first dragon I took on needed multiple tries.

 

But on my second playtrough now I'm trying full custom party on path of damned and its pretty hard. I keep getting killed by those Bandits and dont really know what to do lol I guess i keep trying though, just doesnt feel that anything I try against them makes any difference so the simplest answer would be -> leveling

Edited April 5, 2015 by Zidster

[Ohioastro]

I don't get the obsession with difficulty.  If you're over-leveled relative to mobs it's easier.  Scouting and tactics make it easier.  Munchkin character design makes it easier.  Being willing to use "overpowered" combos - which complicated games always have - makes it easier.  These games scratch a different itch, and they're fun.  But I rarely find them overly difficult once I understand the system because of the points above.  That's something that's much easier to find in simple games like Go or Chess.  Failing that, it's entirely legit to use "house rules" if you want more of a challenge; that's really what some of the achievements are for (solo win....triple solo win...etc.)

[PBJam]

I made a chart showing each monster's strengths and weaknesses:

 

Pillars of Eternity: Monster Strengths and Weakenesses

 

Can be used to plan combat more strategically!

[Daemonjax]

I reloaded, started the fight and just made my whole party attack the guild leader... without any further need to instruct my party members, the fight was won only with my pet going down and Durance receiving slightly more damage.

 

I really felt disappointed by that. 

 

That is interesting.

 

We'd need to do that for every fight in the game, and then we'd be able to say something very real about the difficulty of the encounters (percentage of fights that can be won without any tactics).  I don't think I'd ever be so bored to do that unpaid.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Daemonjax

[b0rsuk]

You leave out too many variables. As mentioned, you can be overleveled for a fight. Second, you can prefer passive or active talents and gear for your characters.

[Shorkan]

Well this is not so easy, its depend on your lvl. When you are to hight, you can easy smash trough many battles without the use of anything. When on a lower lvl, you need tactic to beat them. This means, to many sidequests and the game will be on many battles to easy.

 

PotD makes it little harder, but i think with a custom party, it is again too easy. ^^

[Anthony Stark]

My overall feeling on the difficulty is that it's simply too easy to block chokepoints, apply CC/debuffs, and chew through opponents without much danger. The funneling method is both very simple to do, and very effective, as it drastically cuts down on the number of opponents attacking your tanks at once and prevents them from being flanked. Opponents either need more forced movement (so that they can break through a front line), more dangerous ground-targeted spells (to make staying in one area dangerous), or more ways of circumventing defensive lines (e.g. Shades/Shadows).

 

Part of this is, admittedly, a consequence of level design. There are few areas, especially at higher experience levels, where you cannot find a chokepoint to block off. While wilderness areas tend to be more open, there are still frequently sections that you can force opponents to run through and therefore stop them with your tank line. Fixing this is easier said than done, as it either requires some sort of leashing (enemies run back to their starting positions after being dragged X meters away), or specifically defining and enforcing a combat arena for each encounter to prevent the overuse of chokepoints. The structure of PoE as an IE-style game largely prevents the latter, though a case could be made for the former.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Anthony Stark

[b0rsuk]

Chokepoints is an issue with level design. The tactic has always been extremely effective in history, and it's hard to blame player for the most natural choice. If anything, enemy AI could be improved so it can apply it as well, and avoids being stuck in a choke so easily. We know pathfinding AROUND characters in this game is less than stellar. Enemy AI has big problems getting all its pawns into action, for example spiders often block each other and don't fill battlefield space optimally.