So, the plot.

[Stargazer86]

The story gets a tad hard to follow at times, but fro mwhat I've gathered it can be summed up with: Engwithans use animancy to create the gods in order to give people something to believe in and unite them. Thaos spends his entire prolonged life keeping this secret, creating the Leaden Key to make sure no one ever discovers the gods are fake. Since animancy was used to make them, animancers become a threat, so he needs to discredit the whole practice to prevent the secret from being exposed. He does this by siphoning the souls from children and creating an epidemic that they can't solve, using the souls to strengthen Woedica in the process. Eothas notices, marches on Dyrwood, and gets blown up by the Godhammer.

 

So, wait, why was Thaos working with Woedica? Was it Thaos's plan or hers? What part did she add to it, exactly? How does making her stronger help his cause? Was he working with her from the beginning or only enlisted her help after Eothas things and decided to put a stop to them?

 

To me, it only makes sense that Woedica got involved after Eothas started marching an army towards the Dyrwood. Thaos needed help, called on her, and her price was giving her the souls he'd been stealing. But if that's the case, why would Eothas create that much of a mess when another god wasn't even involved yet? From what I've gathered, Eothas only did it to put a stop to Woedica's scheme of gaining more power than the rest of the gods. But that means Thaos was working with Woedica for a while. But why would he when he doesn't need her for his plan to succeed?

 

Create a plague, animancers can't cure it, get blamed, hearings are held, Erl is assassinated by animancers, success is achieved. He doesn't need Woedica for anything except for divine protection from Eothas. Thaos bragged about destroying entire countries to keep his secret and Eothas never intervened before, so why would he now unless Woedica was already working with Thaos?

 

The plot makes my brain hurt just a bit.

[Amberion]

Hey, thanks for not using spoiler tags. I really appreciate it.

[Stargazer86]

Hey, thanks for not using spoiler tags. I really appreciate it.

 

This whole forum has a spoiler warning on it. Or does the "Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)" forum title not count? I mean, it's a little late for me to edit things now, and I do genuinely apologize, but I figured that if people wanted to avoid spoilers about the story they'd stay clear of the forum that's based around talking about the story. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by Stargazer86

[Gallenger]

Here is how I thought of it.

 

1.  Thaos and the leaden key exist to prevent anybody from figuring out that the Gods aren't organic as such - they're still Gods, they were just created by mortals at some point or another. 

 

2.  As such the leaden key seeks to prevent people from messing with things, looking too deeply, and so forth.  As such, they hate animancy and want to hinder it whenever it gets close to the knowledge that would necessarily imply how to alter gods and souls etc.

 

3.  The reason Woedica comes in at all is because she was the queen of the Gods.  I'm fairly sure that the whole point of that is that the leaden key not only wants to protect the status quo with the Gods as it is, but wants to restore Woedica as ruler of the Gods - because that's how the Engwithans set it up to begin with - the Gods themselves independently stripped Woedica of her power, and that obviously upsets the status quo (not to mention that Woedica's portfolio, if you will, is very much geared towards maintaining the current order of things and so forth). 

 

 

Regarding Eothas/Wiadwen, he's just a substory, it doesn't necessarily mean anything at all.  There's a potential "thing" that it was somehow orchestrated by Woedica to create an excuse for the hallowborn epidemic, but that's never really substantiated by first hand evidence.  It could just be a coincidence or Eothas could've acted alone, or Eothas may've had nothing to do with it all. 

 

As far as the hollowborn epidemic, it was there purely to restore Woedica, and perhaps the Leaden Key needed some sort of cataclysm (the saint's war) to justify the following epidemic, because in the lore these machines that gather/trap souls have been running for a *while* prior to the start of the story - 10 years or more in some cases (since that's when the first hollowborn started appearing according to the story).  The hollowborn are a symptom of the overall plot to restore Woedica - because their gathering of souls has depleted the overall amount of free souls to the point where new children don't have any souls to pick up.  The rest of it - having to do with animancers and so forth - is just a bonus externality as far as the leaden key is concerned.

 

 

That's how I understood it anyways lol. 

[Dinapuff]

Thaos is sworn to Woedica. Not just her ally. His immortal soul is bound to her as surely as she is bound to him. Woedica wants to discredit animancy, and keep her secrets safe, she also wants a large pot of vengeance over the other gods as they rekt her **** (ruined temple in defiance bay backstory).

 

There is a reason they call her "The exiled Queen," and it's not because she's very regal. It's because the other gods made short work of her once she massed too much power.

 

So to your questions. Why is Thaos working with Woedica? Because he is the closest thing she has to an avatar in the world of the living. He is her most trusted minion, the close confidant, the immortal Jason Bourne or 007. A long time sworn ally to her and party to orchestrating the entire "Gods are real" deception scheme they invented. As a reward for his service he doesn't have to struggle with awakening every time he is born. He is born with all his memories and all of his soul remembering everything.

 

Was it Thaos's plan or hers? It is her will, and Engwithan machinery is being used so she probably knows about that too, but it is probably his plan.

 

How does making her stronger help his cause? She is his cause. 

 

Was he working with her from the beginning or only enlisted her help after Eothas things and decided to put a stop to them?

 

-.-  Dude, did you not read the lore? he was working for her since Engwithan times. The sole purpose of his order is to maintain that gods are real, and it worked that way for a long time until the gods turned on Woedica for amassing too much influence and burnt her avatar to a crisp (much like what happend to Eothas's champion).

 

Talk with Durance about Magran and the godhammer. If you completed the Durance quests you should have gotten to the point where you can either convince him that Magran did not want Eothas's champion killed and that he betrayed her, or that she betrayed him.

 

Animancy = stealing fire from the gods. Woedica wants to stamp it out.

Revenge over the other gods / power over them. Woedica wants this.

Thaos = He is Woedica's queen on the chessboard - moving through the centuries to carry out her will, but because he is such a trusted pawn he is left to decide how to carry it out himself. 

Plot to steal souls to give woedica power over the gods, and wipe out Animancy in the region all at once is the work of Thaos, but he is carrying it out for Woedica. She wants him to do all of this.

 

Hopefully that helps.

[Primislas]

Talk with Durance about Magran and the godhammer. If you completed the Durance quests you should have gotten to the point where you can either convince him that Magran did not want Eothas's champion killed and that he betrayed her, or that she betrayed him.

Oh, there's more to it? I have to admit I found it hard following his ramblings and reasoning at times and by the end I just wanted to finally resolve his quest before going after Thaos, but the only option I've had in the dialogue was "I think Magran was working with Woedica against Eothas". So... was there more to this? Are Magran's role and motives actually plainly revealed anywhere or left up for speculation just as Eothas? And while we're at it, why would Skaen suggest to the player to install Woedica as the ultimate big brother master?

[Dinapuff]

 

Talk with Durance about Magran and the godhammer. If you completed the Durance quests you should have gotten to the point where you can either convince him that Magran did not want Eothas's champion killed and that he betrayed her, or that she betrayed him.

Oh, there's more to it? I have to admit I found it hard following his ramblings and reasoning at times and by the end I just wanted to finally resolve his quest before going after Thaos, but the only option I've had in the dialogue was "I think Magran was working with Woedica against Eothas". So... was there more to this? Are Magran's role and motives actually plainly revealed anywhere or left up for speculation just as Eothas? And while we're at it, why would Skaen suggest to the player to install Woedica as the ultimate big brother master?

 

Theres more to what? Yes - there is more to Magran and the Godhammer. She was definitively not working with Woedica against Eothas. It's more that Eothas's avatar was overstepping his bounds by a great deal, and stepping into the territory of war (Magrans territory). Durance only got half a soul left, and there are two ways you can interpret this.

 

1) He acted against her will, and the dozen used too much power when wielding the godhammer to do more damage than what was intended, and thus lost her favor. There is much talk about trials of the flesh, and the trials of Durance (one of many interpretations of Magrans teachings).

 

2) He was intended to die on that bridge, and Magran does not care about the most devout of her worshippers.

 

The gods are more like corporations than anything else, and they have to act through mortals mostly. Their wills are hard to make clear because it's never a direct order. Durance and the dozen wanted to fight Eothas's champion. He and the others were blessed with the Godhammer, and she had to trust he was going to remain true to her teachings.

 

That is the problem of having your will being carried out by mortals. They are prone to delude themselves / act out of self interest, or act in ways counter to the nature of the god because there are dozens of different teachings of the same god. Mortals pick up the god that they already have dispositions towards, and the gods make sure to promote certain attitudes and take on aspects to keep a balance between themselves.

 

Eothas is a kind benevolent god, and as such when he steps into another gods territory (war) then Magran must respond in some way through her followers. Magrans motives are reflected in the conversations you have with durance, and the quest related with the temple of Magran. You can push him towards 2) or 1) respectively which reflects more on your watchers nature than Magran. She would never work with Woedica, but the Leaden Key has no doubt influenced followers of all religions. You can be certain that they were heavily invested in Saint Waidwen.

 

As for Skaen. He is the Quiet Slave, the god of secret hatred, resentment, and violent rebellion. He stands to be second in power should Woedica get her souls as she wants. These gods all act according to their aspects. Where the other gods stand to loose should Woedica succeed he has many followers to gain.

[Primislas]

 

 

Talk with Durance about Magran and the godhammer. If you completed the Durance quests you should have gotten to the point where you can either convince him that Magran did not want Eothas's champion killed and that he betrayed her, or that she betrayed him.

Oh, there's more to it? I have to admit I found it hard following his ramblings and reasoning at times and by the end I just wanted to finally resolve his quest before going after Thaos, but the only option I've had in the dialogue was "I think Magran was working with Woedica against Eothas". So... was there more to this? Are Magran's role and motives actually plainly revealed anywhere or left up for speculation just as Eothas? And while we're at it, why would Skaen suggest to the player to install Woedica as the ultimate big brother master?

 

Theres more to what? Yes - there is more to Magran and the Godhammer. She was definitively not working with Woedica against Eothas. It's more that Eothas's avatar was overstepping his bounds by a great deal, and stepping into the territory of war (Magrans territory). Durance only got half a soul left, and there are two ways you can interpret this.

<snip>

As for Skaen. He is the Quiet Slave, the god of secret hatred, resentment, and violent rebellion. He stands to be second in power should Woedica get her souls as she wants. These gods all act according to their aspects. Where the other gods stand to loose should Woedica succeed he has many followers to gain.

 

Meh, somehow somewhere my dialogues left only "Magran conspired with Woedica" option available, which left me scratching my head: "She's what now? Where did that come from? And I've just convinced Durance of this? [in Sagani's voice] What? What just happened!?   " I should probably go back and re-read that conversation. And definitely should've given Skaen more thought, from this angle his peculiar behaviour makes perfect sense. Oh, the finer subtleties we might miss when rushing towards the end. 

[Dinapuff]

 

 

 

Talk with Durance about Magran and the godhammer. If you completed the Durance quests you should have gotten to the point where you can either convince him that Magran did not want Eothas's champion killed and that he betrayed her, or that she betrayed him.

Oh, there's more to it? I have to admit I found it hard following his ramblings and reasoning at times and by the end I just wanted to finally resolve his quest before going after Thaos, but the only option I've had in the dialogue was "I think Magran was working with Woedica against Eothas". So... was there more to this? Are Magran's role and motives actually plainly revealed anywhere or left up for speculation just as Eothas? And while we're at it, why would Skaen suggest to the player to install Woedica as the ultimate big brother master?

 

Theres more to what? Yes - there is more to Magran and the Godhammer. She was definitively not working with Woedica against Eothas. It's more that Eothas's avatar was overstepping his bounds by a great deal, and stepping into the territory of war (Magrans territory). Durance only got half a soul left, and there are two ways you can interpret this.

<snip>

As for Skaen. He is the Quiet Slave, the god of secret hatred, resentment, and violent rebellion. He stands to be second in power should Woedica get her souls as she wants. These gods all act according to their aspects. Where the other gods stand to loose should Woedica succeed he has many followers to gain.

 

Meh, somehow somewhere my dialogues left only "Magran conspired with Woedica" option available, which left me scratching my head: "She's what now? Where did that come from? And I've just convinced Durance of this? [in Sagani's voice] What? What just happened!?   " I should probably go back and re-read that conversation. And definitely should've given Skaen more thought, from this angle his peculiar behaviour makes perfect sense. Oh, the finer subtleties we might miss when rushing towards the end. 

 

It's a reflection of your watcher's own interpretation based on past dialogue. I think you have some different outcomes before it gets to that point if you act inquisitively enough. I guess it is important to note that whenever we finished a conversation Durance would often rebuff me with insults layered around talk of Wael.

[PsychoBlonde]

 

 

 

 

Talk with Durance about Magran and the godhammer. If you completed the Durance quests you should have gotten to the point where you can either convince him that Magran did not want Eothas's champion killed and that he betrayed her, or that she betrayed him.

Oh, there's more to it? I have to admit I found it hard following his ramblings and reasoning at times and by the end I just wanted to finally resolve his quest before going after Thaos, but the only option I've had in the dialogue was "I think Magran was working with Woedica against Eothas". So... was there more to this? Are Magran's role and motives actually plainly revealed anywhere or left up for speculation just as Eothas? And while we're at it, why would Skaen suggest to the player to install Woedica as the ultimate big brother master?

 

Theres more to what? Yes - there is more to Magran and the Godhammer. She was definitively not working with Woedica against Eothas. It's more that Eothas's avatar was overstepping his bounds by a great deal, and stepping into the territory of war (Magrans territory). Durance only got half a soul left, and there are two ways you can interpret this.

<snip>

As for Skaen. He is the Quiet Slave, the god of secret hatred, resentment, and violent rebellion. He stands to be second in power should Woedica get her souls as she wants. These gods all act according to their aspects. Where the other gods stand to loose should Woedica succeed he has many followers to gain.

 

Meh, somehow somewhere my dialogues left only "Magran conspired with Woedica" option available, which left me scratching my head: "She's what now? Where did that come from? And I've just convinced Durance of this? [in Sagani's voice] What? What just happened!?   " I should probably go back and re-read that conversation. And definitely should've given Skaen more thought, from this angle his peculiar behaviour makes perfect sense. Oh, the finer subtleties we might miss when rushing towards the end. 

 

It's a reflection of your watcher's own interpretation based on past dialogue. I think you have some different outcomes before it gets to that point if you act inquisitively enough. I guess it is important to note that whenever we finished a conversation Durance would often rebuff me with insults layered around talk of Wael.

 

 

 

Yeah, pretty much anything your character says is just your own interpretation, which is quite interesting.  Nobody ever comes along to tell you "This Is the Official Explanation".  You have to decide what you think on your own, which is the recurring theme of the game--do you take other people's interpretations at face value and do what they say, or do you try and figure out your own path, knowing that the "answers" may never be clear?  All the sub-plots basically revolve around the concept of coming to terms with uncertainty in some fashion.

 

At the end, I basically took it as one thing: the motive of the gods in general is to maintain the status quo.  Woedica and Eothas both upset this at various times and got squashed for it--now Woedica is out for revenge.  She is basically like the Rogue Cop of the gods, breaking the rules and dishing out her own brand of "justice".  You know, it just occurred to me that Waidwen's entire invasion of the Dyrwood may have been an attempt to put an end to Woedica's schemes in some way.  Look at this:

 

1.  Woedica gets uppity and the other gods squash her.

2.  She sends Thaos to gather power for her using ancient Engwithan artifacts.  He forms the Leaden Key toward this end.

3.  Eothas, the god of forgiveness and redemption (and thus most directly opposed to Woedica) gets wind of this and can't figure out a way to counteract Thaos except by creating his own avatar.

4.  Eothas selects Waidwen to be his avatar, possibly because conditions in Raedceras have driven enough people to the worship of Eothas that the god has sufficient power there to accomplish this.

5.  Waidwen frees Raedceras and then, under direction from Eothas to stop Thaos at all costs, invades Dyrwood to try and accomplish this.

6.  Eothas' actions piss off the other gods, particularly Magran, and she inspires her followers to create the Godhammer and blow Waidwen to Kingdom Come, thus leaving Thaos free to finish carrying out his schemes.

 

So, in a sense the Hollowing really IS "Waidwen's Legacy", because this is what Eothas was attempting to prevent by invading the Dyrwood in the first place.

 

That's speculation,  but it does hang together nicely.

[Dinapuff]

 

 

 

 

 

Talk with Durance about Magran and the godhammer. If you completed the Durance quests you should have gotten to the point where you can either convince him that Magran did not want Eothas's champion killed and that he betrayed her, or that she betrayed him.

Oh, there's more to it? I have to admit I found it hard following his ramblings and reasoning at times and by the end I just wanted to finally resolve his quest before going after Thaos, but the only option I've had in the dialogue was "I think Magran was working with Woedica against Eothas". So... was there more to this? Are Magran's role and motives actually plainly revealed anywhere or left up for speculation just as Eothas? And while we're at it, why would Skaen suggest to the player to install Woedica as the ultimate big brother master?

 

Theres more to what? Yes - there is more to Magran and the Godhammer. She was definitively not working with Woedica against Eothas. It's more that Eothas's avatar was overstepping his bounds by a great deal, and stepping into the territory of war (Magrans territory). Durance only got half a soul left, and there are two ways you can interpret this.

<snip>

As for Skaen. He is the Quiet Slave, the god of secret hatred, resentment, and violent rebellion. He stands to be second in power should Woedica get her souls as she wants. These gods all act according to their aspects. Where the other gods stand to loose should Woedica succeed he has many followers to gain.

 

Meh, somehow somewhere my dialogues left only "Magran conspired with Woedica" option available, which left me scratching my head: "She's what now? Where did that come from? And I've just convinced Durance of this? [in Sagani's voice] What? What just happened!?   " I should probably go back and re-read that conversation. And definitely should've given Skaen more thought, from this angle his peculiar behaviour makes perfect sense. Oh, the finer subtleties we might miss when rushing towards the end. 

 

It's a reflection of your watcher's own interpretation based on past dialogue. I think you have some different outcomes before it gets to that point if you act inquisitively enough. I guess it is important to note that whenever we finished a conversation Durance would often rebuff me with insults layered around talk of Wael.

 

 

 

Yeah, pretty much anything your character says is just your own interpretation, which is quite interesting.  Nobody ever comes along to tell you "This Is the Official Explanation".  You have to decide what you think on your own, which is the recurring theme of the game--do you take other people's interpretations at face value and do what they say, or do you try and figure out your own path, knowing that the "answers" may never be clear?  All the sub-plots basically revolve around the concept of coming to terms with uncertainty in some fashion.

 

At the end, I basically took it as one thing: the motive of the gods in general is to maintain the status quo.  Woedica and Eothas both upset this at various times and got squashed for it--now Woedica is out for revenge.  She is basically like the Rogue Cop of the gods, breaking the rules and dishing out her own brand of "justice".  You know, it just occurred to me that Waidwen's entire invasion of the Dyrwood may have been an attempt to put an end to Woedica's schemes in some way.  Look at this:

 

1.  Woedica gets uppity and the other gods squash her.

2.  She sends Thaos to gather power for her using ancient Engwithan artifacts.  He forms the Leaden Key toward this end.

3.  Eothas, the god of forgiveness and redemption (and thus most directly opposed to Woedica) gets wind of this and can't figure out a way to counteract Thaos except by creating his own avatar.

4.  Eothas selects Waidwen to be his avatar, possibly because conditions in Raedceras have driven enough people to the worship of Eothas that the god has sufficient power there to accomplish this.

5.  Waidwen frees Raedceras and then, under direction from Eothas to stop Thaos at all costs, invades Dyrwood to try and accomplish this.

6.  Eothas' actions piss off the other gods, particularly Magran, and she inspires her followers to create the Godhammer and blow Waidwen to Kingdom Come, thus leaving Thaos free to finish carrying out his schemes.

 

So, in a sense the Hollowing really IS "Waidwen's Legacy", because this is what Eothas was attempting to prevent by invading the Dyrwood in the first place.

 

That's speculation,  but it does hang together nicely.

 

 

The only thing i would say to your list is that the leaden key's purpose is to maintain the gods that were set up. Thaos is just running a smaller part of a larger whole towards Woedica's revenge which does not conflict with maintaining the leaden key's primary function, and they have existed for much longer than what you imply.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Dinapuff

[Nerdwing]

It strikes me that Eothas' actions MAY have been some sort of unplanned scenario possibly as well, and Magran reacted in the way she was meant to given her role/portfolio, but against an enemy that wasnt 100% expected from the "conception" of the Gods by Thaos' people.  At creation, nobody expected a scenario to arise in which a God would act in such a way to step outside the bounds of its defined role, but that ended up happening.  After all, they've each got their own role to fill.  They wont really overlap, will they?

 

Magran, sadly, remained in hers and smoked Eothas.

 

I interpret this as a kind of "CODE RED!  CODE RED!" for the Leaden Key and Thaos.  And they had to kick it up a notch to try and cover the potential for someone to notice something which would in turn lead to the whole revealing of the Gods nature.  My interpretation may fall flat though, since it really dehumanizes the Gods to such a degree that they're little more than robots performing their respective "divine" tasks for all eternity even if it has caused an error or flaw to occur that will snowball out of control and reveal their true existance.

 

Perhaps Woedica's resignation/removal from the whole pantheon could have removed a manner of safeguard meant to prevent God on God violence too?  

[Dinapuff]

It strikes me that Eothas' actions MAY have been some sort of unplanned scenario possibly as well, and Magran reacted in the way she was meant to given her role/portfolio, but against an enemy that wasnt 100% expected from the "conception" of the Gods by Thaos' people.  At creation, nobody expected a scenario to arise in which a God would act in such a way to step outside the bounds of its defined role, but that ended up happening.  After all, they've each got their own role to fill.  They wont really overlap, will they?

 

Magran, sadly, remained in hers and smoked Eothas.

 

I interpret this as a kind of "CODE RED!  CODE RED!" for the Leaden Key and Thaos.  And they had to kick it up a notch to try and cover the potential for someone to notice something which would in turn lead to the whole revealing of the Gods nature.  My interpretation may fall flat though, since it really dehumanizes the Gods to such a degree that they're little more than robots performing their respective "divine" tasks for all eternity even if it has caused an error or flaw to occur that will snowball out of control and reveal their true existance.

 

Perhaps Woedica's resignation/removal from the whole pantheon could have removed a manner of safeguard meant to prevent God on God violence too?  

 

See. It wasn't Eothas that did those things. It was his avatar, a mortal fallible man. Waidwen was blessed with the gifts of Eothas for sure, and disposed to doing certain things as pretaining to his gods nature, but he is still mortal, and as such subject to all mortal failings. The reasons Waidwen acted as he did were mortal reasons. Most likely influenced by the leaden key / Thaos, but also by his own arrogance and conceited interpretation of how Eothas wants him to behave.

 

Like Thaos says when confronted at the shrine to Woedica. He can commune with her there. But that is the ways of a man who has had decades to cement himself in Woedica's favor, and even he has to enter her most sacred of places to properly get messages across. Thaos's soul is touched and blessed thousand ways backwards to sunday whereas Waidwen was a peasant, and nobody knows how Waidwen would commune with Eothas. No doubt the logistics of the thing would be horrible given the amount of followers a god of rebirth and benevolence has.

 

The gods themselves are subject to mortal interpretation, and when those mortals die, there's always second hand interpretation, or third hand, or the words of this or that particularly blessed saint (not to mention conquered peoples adopting a new god and putting in their own traditions and take on things). These gods and the faith mortals put in them is as  multifaceted as it can get, and not one of them is the right answer to how any of them actually behaves. Try to do the mission for Magrans high priest in defiance bay, and listen closely on the discussion when you turn the quest in. Do try some of the multiple answers that exist. You can force her to resign her post because she sent an adventurer in her place to complete the trial Magran put before her, or you can make her believe all manner of varying degrees of self delusion / ignorance which Durance will comment on.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Dinapuff

[Voss]

 

 

 

 

 

Talk with Durance about Magran and the godhammer. If you completed the Durance quests you should have gotten to the point where you can either convince him that Magran did not want Eothas's champion killed and that he betrayed her, or that she betrayed him.

Oh, there's more to it? I have to admit I found it hard following his ramblings and reasoning at times and by the end I just wanted to finally resolve his quest before going after Thaos, but the only option I've had in the dialogue was "I think Magran was working with Woedica against Eothas". So... was there more to this? Are Magran's role and motives actually plainly revealed anywhere or left up for speculation just as Eothas? And while we're at it, why would Skaen suggest to the player to install Woedica as the ultimate big brother master?

 

Theres more to what? Yes - there is more to Magran and the Godhammer. She was definitively not working with Woedica against Eothas. It's more that Eothas's avatar was overstepping his bounds by a great deal, and stepping into the territory of war (Magrans territory). Durance only got half a soul left, and there are two ways you can interpret this.

<snip>

As for Skaen. He is the Quiet Slave, the god of secret hatred, resentment, and violent rebellion. He stands to be second in power should Woedica get her souls as she wants. These gods all act according to their aspects. Where the other gods stand to loose should Woedica succeed he has many followers to gain.

 

Meh, somehow somewhere my dialogues left only "Magran conspired with Woedica" option available, which left me scratching my head: "She's what now? Where did that come from? And I've just convinced Durance of this? [in Sagani's voice] What? What just happened!?   " I should probably go back and re-read that conversation. And definitely should've given Skaen more thought, from this angle his peculiar behaviour makes perfect sense. Oh, the finer subtleties we might miss when rushing towards the end. 

 

It's a reflection of your watcher's own interpretation based on past dialogue. I think you have some different outcomes before it gets to that point if you act inquisitively enough. I guess it is important to note that whenever we finished a conversation Durance would often rebuff me with insults layered around talk of Wael.

 

 

 

Yeah, pretty much anything your character says is just your own interpretation, which is quite interesting.  Nobody ever comes along to tell you "This Is the Official Explanation".  You have to decide what you think on your own, which is the recurring theme of the game--do you take other people's interpretations at face value and do what they say, or do you try and figure out your own path, knowing that the "answers" may never be clear?  All the sub-plots basically revolve around the concept of coming to terms with uncertainty in some fashion.

 

At the end, I basically took it as one thing: the motive of the gods in general is to maintain the status quo.  Woedica and Eothas both upset this at various times and got squashed for it--now Woedica is out for revenge.  She is basically like the Rogue Cop of the gods, breaking the rules and dishing out her own brand of "justice".  You know, it just occurred to me that Waidwen's entire invasion of the Dyrwood may have been an attempt to put an end to Woedica's schemes in some way.  Look at this:

 

1.  Woedica gets uppity and the other gods squash her.

2.  She sends Thaos to gather power for her using ancient Engwithan artifacts.  He forms the Leaden Key toward this end.

3.  Eothas, the god of forgiveness and redemption (and thus most directly opposed to Woedica) gets wind of this and can't figure out a way to counteract Thaos except by creating his own avatar.

4.  Eothas selects Waidwen to be his avatar, possibly because conditions in Raedceras have driven enough people to the worship of Eothas that the god has sufficient power there to accomplish this.

5.  Waidwen frees Raedceras and then, under direction from Eothas to stop Thaos at all costs, invades Dyrwood to try and accomplish this.

6.  Eothas' actions piss off the other gods, particularly Magran, and she inspires her followers to create the Godhammer and blow Waidwen to Kingdom Come, thus leaving Thaos free to finish carrying out his schemes.

 

So, in a sense the Hollowing really IS "Waidwen's Legacy", because this is what Eothas was attempting to prevent by invading the Dyrwood in the first place.

 

That's speculation,  but it does hang together nicely.

 

The time line does not work out for your 6 steps there.

 

1) happens quite a while back (her temple in Defiance bay was burned during the rebellion against Aedyr, which was decades before), and background books point to her being squashed awhile back as well.

2) Thaos and the leaden key date back centuries, if not millennia.

thus 3) falls apart

4) is questionable.  There is nothing to suggest gods get anything from worship in this setting.. the forge god abydon (or whatever) seems to be pretty much abandoned.  Souls give them power (and made them in the first place. Worship seems to serve just the basic function of social control.

5) there isn't any indication that thaos is in the dyrwood at this point.  The 'legacy' (brought about by manipulating the machines) happens after the end of the war.

6) I'm not particularly convinced that Magran inspired the bomb.  They may well have done it on their own, which explains several things, including the fires being out at the shrines in Defiance Bay, despite wider worship of Magran.  

 

Talking with Galawain, Magran and Abydon, its pretty clear what motivates Thaos (and therefor the Key), is animancy.  The new science is explaining the world and moving people away from the gods.  Those three accept that, due to their natures, but it makes everything Thaos has ever done pointless, and he can't accept that.  He must keep the world the unchanging ball of misery he created, or every atrocity he ever committed was worth nothing.  

Edited April 3, 2015 by Voss

[PsychoBlonde]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Talk with Durance about Magran and the godhammer. If you completed the Durance quests you should have gotten to the point where you can either convince him that Magran did not want Eothas's champion killed and that he betrayed her, or that she betrayed him.

Oh, there's more to it? I have to admit I found it hard following his ramblings and reasoning at times and by the end I just wanted to finally resolve his quest before going after Thaos, but the only option I've had in the dialogue was "I think Magran was working with Woedica against Eothas". So... was there more to this? Are Magran's role and motives actually plainly revealed anywhere or left up for speculation just as Eothas? And while we're at it, why would Skaen suggest to the player to install Woedica as the ultimate big brother master?

 

Theres more to what? Yes - there is more to Magran and the Godhammer. She was definitively not working with Woedica against Eothas. It's more that Eothas's avatar was overstepping his bounds by a great deal, and stepping into the territory of war (Magrans territory). Durance only got half a soul left, and there are two ways you can interpret this.

<snip>

As for Skaen. He is the Quiet Slave, the god of secret hatred, resentment, and violent rebellion. He stands to be second in power should Woedica get her souls as she wants. These gods all act according to their aspects. Where the other gods stand to loose should Woedica succeed he has many followers to gain.

 

Meh, somehow somewhere my dialogues left only "Magran conspired with Woedica" option available, which left me scratching my head: "She's what now? Where did that come from? And I've just convinced Durance of this? [in Sagani's voice] What? What just happened!?   " I should probably go back and re-read that conversation. And definitely should've given Skaen more thought, from this angle his peculiar behaviour makes perfect sense. Oh, the finer subtleties we might miss when rushing towards the end. 

 

It's a reflection of your watcher's own interpretation based on past dialogue. I think you have some different outcomes before it gets to that point if you act inquisitively enough. I guess it is important to note that whenever we finished a conversation Durance would often rebuff me with insults layered around talk of Wael.

 

 

 

Yeah, pretty much anything your character says is just your own interpretation, which is quite interesting.  Nobody ever comes along to tell you "This Is the Official Explanation".  You have to decide what you think on your own, which is the recurring theme of the game--do you take other people's interpretations at face value and do what they say, or do you try and figure out your own path, knowing that the "answers" may never be clear?  All the sub-plots basically revolve around the concept of coming to terms with uncertainty in some fashion.

 

At the end, I basically took it as one thing: the motive of the gods in general is to maintain the status quo.  Woedica and Eothas both upset this at various times and got squashed for it--now Woedica is out for revenge.  She is basically like the Rogue Cop of the gods, breaking the rules and dishing out her own brand of "justice".  You know, it just occurred to me that Waidwen's entire invasion of the Dyrwood may have been an attempt to put an end to Woedica's schemes in some way.  Look at this:

 

1.  Woedica gets uppity and the other gods squash her.

2.  She sends Thaos to gather power for her using ancient Engwithan artifacts.  He forms the Leaden Key toward this end.

3.  Eothas, the god of forgiveness and redemption (and thus most directly opposed to Woedica) gets wind of this and can't figure out a way to counteract Thaos except by creating his own avatar.

4.  Eothas selects Waidwen to be his avatar, possibly because conditions in Raedceras have driven enough people to the worship of Eothas that the god has sufficient power there to accomplish this.

5.  Waidwen frees Raedceras and then, under direction from Eothas to stop Thaos at all costs, invades Dyrwood to try and accomplish this.

6.  Eothas' actions piss off the other gods, particularly Magran, and she inspires her followers to create the Godhammer and blow Waidwen to Kingdom Come, thus leaving Thaos free to finish carrying out his schemes.

 

So, in a sense the Hollowing really IS "Waidwen's Legacy", because this is what Eothas was attempting to prevent by invading the Dyrwood in the first place.

 

That's speculation,  but it does hang together nicely.

 

The time line does not work out for your 6 steps there.

 

1) happens quite a while back (her temple in Defiance bay was burned during the rebellion against Aedyr, which was decades before), and background books point to her being squashed awhile back as well.

2) Thaos and the leaden key date back centuries, if not millennia.

thus 3) falls apart

4) is questionable.  There is nothing to suggest gods get anything from worship in this setting.. the forge god abydon (or whatever) seems to be pretty much abandoned.  Souls give them power (and made them in the first place. Worship seems to serve just the basic function of social control.

5) there isn't any indication that thaos is in the dyrwood at this point.  The 'legacy' (brought about by manipulating the machines) happens after the end of the war.

6) I'm not particularly convinced that Magran inspired the bomb.  They may well have done it on their own, which explains several things, including the fires being out at the shrines in Defiance Bay, despite wider worship of Magran.  

 

Talking with Galawain, Magran and Abydon, its pretty clear what motivates Thaos (and therefor the Key), is animancy.  The new science is explaining the world and moving people away from the gods.  Those three accept that, due to their natures, but it makes everything Thaos has ever done pointless, and he can't accept that.  He must keep the world the unchanging ball of misery he created, or every atrocity he ever committed was worth nothing.  

 

 

 

THAOS dates back a long ways, but the Leaden Key is specifically devoted to restoring Woedica to power.  I didn't find any evidence in the game that the Leaden Key is an ancient organization.  Thaos has created a number of organizations when and as he needed them, but his original group is only referred to as the "Inquisition" in game as far as I could tell.

 

And the gods clearly DO get something out of worship--they apparently can't influence anyone EXCEPT their followers (or people who actively pray to them, at the very least).  I'm somewhat assuming that Eothas couldn't just take over any random person in the world.  It would have had to be someone who followed him (Waidwen), and for his plan to work it would have to be in a place where that person could conceivably raise an army instead of just getting whacked by the locals as a nutcase and a heretic.  Conditions in Raedceras were ideal, so it's possible Eothas seized the opportunity.

 

The machines that Thaos was planning to use to resurrect Woedica were in the Dyrwood, so he *necessarily* had to go to the Dyrwood.  And Eothas, having been created by those same machines, would know this.  There's nothing ELSE there that would inspire Eothas to invade (at least, nothing that was revealed in the game), so if there's a motivation to be found, that's the one.  Whether he knew substantial details of Thaos's *exact* plan is unknown, but all through the game people keep wondering "why did Waidwen come HERE?!" . . . well, there IS a rather solid reason, as you discover.

And animancy isn't a "new science" that could "move people away from the gods".  Animancy CREATED the gods--it's ANCIENT.  Thaos probably doesn't care one way or another about the study of animancy, it's merely a target of convenience to blame the Hollowborn on--possibly an excuse for a good old-fashioned crusade once he gets his goddess back up and running.  His efforts are focused more specifically on getting people *angry* at animancy than on wiping it out--otherwise he would have stuck around in Defiance Bay post-assassination to continue rallying the mob.  But he doesn't, he leaves IMMEDIATELY without even waiting to see what happens, only pausing to take out your biggest source of info on his movements.

[Nerdwing]

Regarding the age of animancy (and not to use this as a counterpoint, just something to note), the Engwithans's were apparently a race that was super advanced in Animancy (obviously ), but not particularly astounding in other fields.  If you inspect their shields and weapons you get off destroyed Anima's for instance you find the metalwork is described as inferior to what you'd see today. 

 

I thought this was interesting, as it helped move away from the "ancient super civilization" trope that plagues alot of settings.  They were pretty normal, just they had this one niche they were unparalleled at.

[abelhabel]

As far as I understand, Waidwen was known as a saint (or avatar of Eothas) and the hollowborn epidemic started at the same (or after) time Waidwen was killed by the godhammer, so it was assumed that the godhammer caused the hollowborn epidemic and the whole thing got the name "Waidwen's Legacy".

 

This, I think, is there as a means to strengthen a theme of the game, which seems to be about "people believe what they want to believe". I think the same goes for animancy, in that animancy became the scape goat to deal with something as confusing as babies being born without souls.

 

In the same way, I also understand the plot about the gods not really being gods but 'created' by Engwithans to be a reinforcement of the aforementioned theme. For example, all companions, in the end, draw conclusions based on their individual biases. .

 

To me, the central story was about Woedica and godhood. She, even though we only know this second hand, takes souls from new borns , also only second hand, to get back into her rightful seat as the Queen. You, at the end get to compete with Woedica and decide what happens to all the souls she has collected. In this way you become a god. The legacy you leave after yourself will become your "portfolio", for lack of a better word. 

 

In the end, you die so you should have no means of knowing what the consequences of your actions are. But we do get to see all the consequences with a narrator speaking to you - the character - which should mean that you have a means to witness the consequences. I can't see this meaning anything else than you being a god.

 

So, the story leaves you (or me at least) with a question: What is a god? (In the context of Pillars of Eternity, not our world), and it seemed to me that everything in the game was centered around this question.

[GreatBeyonder]

I'm actually very curious whether Waidwen was a) directly possessed by Eothas as most assume or b) was Eothas's own Thaos, i.e. a superpowered enforcer interpreting his god's will as well he could. I'm also supportive of the notion Eothas was attempting to stop the Hollowborn crisis before it started, but I'm afraid I don't have any direct evidence.

[Primislas]

In the end, you die so you should have no means of knowing what the consequences of your actions are. But we do get to see all the consequences with a narrator speaking to you - the character - which should mean that you have a means to witness the consequences.

But you don't die. The slides actually talk about PC using the alternative path up to the surface and making it out eventually after days of wondering.

[Dinapuff]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Talk with Durance about Magran and the godhammer. If you completed the Durance quests you should have gotten to the point where you can either convince him that Magran did not want Eothas's champion killed and that he betrayed her, or that she betrayed him.

Oh, there's more to it? I have to admit I found it hard following his ramblings and reasoning at times and by the end I just wanted to finally resolve his quest before going after Thaos, but the only option I've had in the dialogue was "I think Magran was working with Woedica against Eothas". So... was there more to this? Are Magran's role and motives actually plainly revealed anywhere or left up for speculation just as Eothas? And while we're at it, why would Skaen suggest to the player to install Woedica as the ultimate big brother master?

 

Theres more to what? Yes - there is more to Magran and the Godhammer. She was definitively not working with Woedica against Eothas. It's more that Eothas's avatar was overstepping his bounds by a great deal, and stepping into the territory of war (Magrans territory). Durance only got half a soul left, and there are two ways you can interpret this.

<snip>

As for Skaen. He is the Quiet Slave, the god of secret hatred, resentment, and violent rebellion. He stands to be second in power should Woedica get her souls as she wants. These gods all act according to their aspects. Where the other gods stand to loose should Woedica succeed he has many followers to gain.

 

Meh, somehow somewhere my dialogues left only "Magran conspired with Woedica" option available, which left me scratching my head: "She's what now? Where did that come from? And I've just convinced Durance of this? [in Sagani's voice] What? What just happened!?   " I should probably go back and re-read that conversation. And definitely should've given Skaen more thought, from this angle his peculiar behaviour makes perfect sense. Oh, the finer subtleties we might miss when rushing towards the end. 

 

It's a reflection of your watcher's own interpretation based on past dialogue. I think you have some different outcomes before it gets to that point if you act inquisitively enough. I guess it is important to note that whenever we finished a conversation Durance would often rebuff me with insults layered around talk of Wael.

 

 

 

Yeah, pretty much anything your character says is just your own interpretation, which is quite interesting.  Nobody ever comes along to tell you "This Is the Official Explanation".  You have to decide what you think on your own, which is the recurring theme of the game--do you take other people's interpretations at face value and do what they say, or do you try and figure out your own path, knowing that the "answers" may never be clear?  All the sub-plots basically revolve around the concept of coming to terms with uncertainty in some fashion.

 

At the end, I basically took it as one thing: the motive of the gods in general is to maintain the status quo.  Woedica and Eothas both upset this at various times and got squashed for it--now Woedica is out for revenge.  She is basically like the Rogue Cop of the gods, breaking the rules and dishing out her own brand of "justice".  You know, it just occurred to me that Waidwen's entire invasion of the Dyrwood may have been an attempt to put an end to Woedica's schemes in some way.  Look at this:

 

1.  Woedica gets uppity and the other gods squash her.

2.  She sends Thaos to gather power for her using ancient Engwithan artifacts.  He forms the Leaden Key toward this end.

3.  Eothas, the god of forgiveness and redemption (and thus most directly opposed to Woedica) gets wind of this and can't figure out a way to counteract Thaos except by creating his own avatar.

4.  Eothas selects Waidwen to be his avatar, possibly because conditions in Raedceras have driven enough people to the worship of Eothas that the god has sufficient power there to accomplish this.

5.  Waidwen frees Raedceras and then, under direction from Eothas to stop Thaos at all costs, invades Dyrwood to try and accomplish this.

6.  Eothas' actions piss off the other gods, particularly Magran, and she inspires her followers to create the Godhammer and blow Waidwen to Kingdom Come, thus leaving Thaos free to finish carrying out his schemes.

 

So, in a sense the Hollowing really IS "Waidwen's Legacy", because this is what Eothas was attempting to prevent by invading the Dyrwood in the first place.

 

That's speculation,  but it does hang together nicely.

 

The time line does not work out for your 6 steps there.

 

1) happens quite a while back (her temple in Defiance bay was burned during the rebellion against Aedyr, which was decades before), and background books point to her being squashed awhile back as well.

2) Thaos and the leaden key date back centuries, if not millennia.

thus 3) falls apart

4) is questionable.  There is nothing to suggest gods get anything from worship in this setting.. the forge god abydon (or whatever) seems to be pretty much abandoned.  Souls give them power (and made them in the first place. Worship seems to serve just the basic function of social control.

5) there isn't any indication that thaos is in the dyrwood at this point.  The 'legacy' (brought about by manipulating the machines) happens after the end of the war.

6) I'm not particularly convinced that Magran inspired the bomb.  They may well have done it on their own, which explains several things, including the fires being out at the shrines in Defiance Bay, despite wider worship of Magran.  

 

Talking with Galawain, Magran and Abydon, its pretty clear what motivates Thaos (and therefor the Key), is animancy.  The new science is explaining the world and moving people away from the gods.  Those three accept that, due to their natures, but it makes everything Thaos has ever done pointless, and he can't accept that.  He must keep the world the unchanging ball of misery he created, or every atrocity he ever committed was worth nothing.  

 

 

 

THAOS dates back a long ways, but the Leaden Key is specifically devoted to restoring Woedica to power.  I didn't find any evidence in the game that the Leaden Key is an ancient organization.  Thaos has created a number of organizations when and as he needed them, but his original group is only referred to as the "Inquisition" in game as far as I could tell.

 

And the gods clearly DO get something out of worship--they apparently can't influence anyone EXCEPT their followers (or people who actively pray to them, at the very least).  I'm somewhat assuming that Eothas couldn't just take over any random person in the world.  It would have had to be someone who followed him (Waidwen), and for his plan to work it would have to be in a place where that person could conceivably raise an army instead of just getting whacked by the locals as a nutcase and a heretic.  Conditions in Raedceras were ideal, so it's possible Eothas seized the opportunity.

 

The machines that Thaos was planning to use to resurrect Woedica were in the Dyrwood, so he *necessarily* had to go to the Dyrwood.  And Eothas, having been created by those same machines, would know this.  There's nothing ELSE there that would inspire Eothas to invade (at least, nothing that was revealed in the game), so if there's a motivation to be found, that's the one.  Whether he knew substantial details of Thaos's *exact* plan is unknown, but all through the game people keep wondering "why did Waidwen come HERE?!" . . . well, there IS a rather solid reason, as you discover.

And animancy isn't a "new science" that could "move people away from the gods".  Animancy CREATED the gods--it's ANCIENT.  Thaos probably doesn't care one way or another about the study of animancy, it's merely a target of convenience to blame the Hollowborn on--possibly an excuse for a good old-fashioned crusade once he gets his goddess back up and running.  His efforts are focused more specifically on getting people *angry* at animancy than on wiping it out--otherwise he would have stuck around in Defiance Bay post-assassination to continue rallying the mob.  But he doesn't, he leaves IMMEDIATELY without even waiting to see what happens, only pausing to take out your biggest source of info on his movements.

 

 

The leaden key is a branch of the same organization that set out to preach the work of these false gods at the start of the entire thing. Woedica is the goddess of secrets, and she is merely invested in keeping secrets, and as such has more influence over this ancient organization than the other gods. The primary purpose of that order is to ensure that the status quo is maintained, or at least the ghost you talk to before fighting thaos says as much. That's why the question you ask Thaos when you meet him is "Is it true that there are no gods?" 

 

That is why when you talk in the audience chamber that you blame the leaden key and point to them having a history that spans back far enough to be the only org capable of trapping souls and maintaining the waidens legacy charade.

 

This status quo existed until the other gods rekt her ****, and even then Thaos still maintains the balance while carrying out Woedica's vengeance, or else there would be a lot more assassins after the player character.

[Dinapuff]

I'm actually very curious whether Waidwen was a) directly possessed by Eothas as most assume or b) was Eothas's own Thaos, i.e. a superpowered enforcer interpreting his god's will as well he could. I'm also supportive of the notion Eothas was attempting to stop the Hollowborn crisis before it started, but I'm afraid I don't have any direct evidence.

 

I thought the talk about the godhammer revealed enough about such things to safely assume that it's merely divine power linked with the god, and that to destroy these avatars you have to destroy the man so as to sever the link.

[abelhabel]

 

In the end, you die so you should have no means of knowing what the consequences of your actions are. But we do get to see all the consequences with a narrator speaking to you - the character - which should mean that you have a means to witness the consequences.

But you don't die. The slides actually talk about PC using the alternative path up to the surface and making it out eventually after days of wondering.

 

 

I see now. I thought the "sleep" meant that the PC died but I guess it meant that as a watcher you finally got some sleep. But the PC didn't stop being a watcher, as far as I understand, so what in the end changed the "no sleep for the watcher"?

[Atnas]

The thing I find curious about the plot is that three of the Gods actually were in favor of Animancy, and wished the peoples to further delve into it. That seems to go against their function, which is to be mighty dudes praised and worshipped.

 

Also, I'm really curious what the gods actually are. Were they ancient people ascended? Or created out of nothing?

 

Thirdly, why would Skaen out of all deities urge you to aid the Exiled Queen? Doesn't he hate authority figures, and those who'd force their will upon others? He seems more like a trickster god of some kind.

[Osvir]

I think that... all souls are guided by the Gods. All of them.

Into the ether, and then out of it, back into the living flesh. It reminds me of gnostic teachings (or is it agnostic?), somewhat. All souls are washed in the Wheel, before returning to "life". Does the Wheel not have the power to influence Souls that pass through?

In that respect... every action the Player takes, every action that Thaos takes, and every being in Eora, is in some way guided by the Gods. Magran's teachings is that of Trials, and Thaos surely struggles through his trials... for thousands of years. He lives in the shadows, in the mystery of Wael. He is deceitful, lying and backstabbing, not unlike the disciples of Skaen. And he is creative, very creative, and even Hylea praises Pallegina's rage and love for war as a "beauty" that she loves dearly. Is Thaos not creative in his machinations, his forging of his plans, his teachings to his Leaden Key? An aspect of Abydon perhaps?

And is he not on the hunt, in favor of Galawain, for his price of Justice granted to him by Woedica? If I am not entirely mistaken... isn't Thaos Soul an Awakened Soul from the time of the Engwithans? Was he not one of the creators of the Gods himself?

Does not Thaos die, and rebirth, time and time again through the Wheel, greeting Berath time and time again, and then returning back to life through Eothas? And in our final confrontation with Thaos (or, at least in my playthrough) it seemed as if I was trying to convince him of something, something he seemed to have forgotten, something that he perhaps had lost? An aspect of Ondra.

And finally, we as we slay him Thaos, Rymgrand comes to greet him and we can choose to fulfill it, or do all kinds of things with his Soul. All of it a device to present to Thaos a massive amount of bad luck, or, in fact that we manage to get to take a shortcut, and to get down before him, by gaining the favor of the Gods.

Are not the Gods of Eora simply... well... aspects of entities in the world? And each entity, being, creature, man, Orlan, Elf, Aumaua or Godlike, hold various amount of each aspect? Even Durance, a Priest of Magran, withholds his secrets, his mysteries, yet hypocritically (time and time again) blame us to be servants of Wael?

I believe the Gods of Eora are not much different than Od Nua, except tethered to the core of the world, to a larger piece of Adra. Poor Od Nua is trapped in Caed Nua, the Endless Paths. But if his body and soul had been set in the Adra of the world, of the core? Would he have become an aspect of a God as well?

 

Are the Gods simply... Engwithans trapped in adra? Hiveminds of Souls?

The unnamed Master Below, the Adra Dragon, has both a male and a female voice, on top of each other. From sucking in the souls from the Od Nua's Titan, does this support my theory? Or am I simply thinking too deep?

If Thaos holds all aspects, one of the "Gods Favored" (Not just Woedica's Favored), does that not make the Watcher one of the God's Favored as well? One who holds all aspects? After all, we can gain the "favor" of all of the Gods. They approach us all the time during the game. Through the Hunt for Thaos, through the mysteries of uncovering the plot, to enact our Justice, through our Steel and Bones, and we are at a loss, unsure who we actually are, or rather, who the Awakened Soul within us are.

Is Thaos the Watcher, and is the Watcher sub-sequentially thus Thaos? Or is that too paradoxal? If we hold all aspects of the Gods within our "avatar", and Thaos also holds all aspects of the Gods in his "avatar", are we not one and the same?

I thought it odd, for a person who has calculated his way (Thaos) through thousands of years, to not know that this caravan would pass through, that the Glanfathans would not be disturbed or that his Leaden Key agents didn't have this intel. Surely he must've known that Gilded Vale were taking in settlers. That is why I wonder... what if the Watcher is "Thaos"? Sure, "Inquisitor" and "Grand Inquisitor" speaks elsewise, unless that is merely a plot by the aspects of Skaen and Wael. There were some dialogue options I didn't opt for in the discussion with Iovaer(sp?) that felt like they had two meanings...

The world will move on, regardless of Thaos' actions. Regardless of the Watcher's actions. It is simply a matter of how the world will move on for the future. Truly an aspect of Wael. A constant Chaos. Because no matter if you choose Order, there will be Chaos. And even in Chaos, there is Order. A neverending cycle of recycling and renewal between the two. But also one of Change, of Renewal, and of Recycling. Gah, I'm just going around in circles and if I continue I'll just be back at rambling up all the aspects of all the Gods into infinity

Huh... infinity... Adra Pillars of Eternity??

 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Osvir

[Anthony Stark]

Thirdly, why would Skaen out of all deities urge you to aid the Exiled Queen? Doesn't he hate authority figures, and those who'd force their will upon others? He seems more like a trickster god of some kind.

 

Skaen is about vengeance and just desserts more than trickery. He promotes deceit, but only in the interest of eventually striking back against those who wronged you. In that sense, he's a good ally for Woedica, as she wants vengeance against the upstart gods and is willing to take underhanded means to do so. Wael is the trickster figure of Eora who wants nothing more than to see the well-laid schemes of the gods implode, even if that means that he's also weakened for it.