Combat Mechanics? Attack Speed, Recovery

[Baki]

Hmm.. can you get 0? whats plate? 60%? then you could add another 20% from -5dr shots and the ranger has a talent that adds another 20% malus iirc.

 

Edit: okay i tried -50% armor, -24% dex, -20% penetrating shot, -20% Vicious Aim. It did a slow recover.

 

May its BaseFrames/(1+SpeedBonusMods)*(1+SpeedMalusMods)?

 

Test Results:

Attack: 40

Recovery: 89

Reload: 41

 

Now let's see if we can calculate those values:

 

Attack: 53/(1+0,3)=40,77 -> probably correct

Recovery: 76/(1+0,2+0,3)*/(1+0,5+0,2)=86 -> not so far off anymore

Reload: 101/(1+1)*(1+0,3)=65,65 ->nope

 

i have nbo clue how this is calculated

Edited March 31, 2015 by Baki

[Warden]

@ErlKing:

my understanding is:

first you take default animation speed, lets say some 2h melee wep. which is 30

modify it with dex bonus lets assume we have 20 dex -> 10x3% -> 30% -> 30 speed * (100% - 30%) -> 30 * 0.70 -> 21

now that we have the animation speed we multiply it by 1.2 to get the default recovery speed -> 21 * 1.2 -> 25.2

and now we apply the recovery bonuses -> 25.2 * (100% + (50% 2H - 30% dex + 50% armor)) -> 25.2 * (100% + 70%) -> 25.2 * 1.7 -> 42.84

 

in your case you are just adding % with all 3 -> (100% + (50% 2h + 50% armor + 20% penshot + 40% ??? low dex)) there is no  / 0 .... just 260% -> *2.6

on the other hand you could prolly get to recovery time * 0 or recovery time * -X

 

@Baki:

as you guessed the attack speed chant does NOT stack .... *cry*

and i had such a stylish rifleman squad named Rifleman A-F XD

Edited March 31, 2015 by Warden

[Baki]

warden, that cant be true either.

 

otherwise the x2 reload speed from chant would be +100% -> Reload eliminated?

[Warden]

2x faster reload means reload time/2 which is -50% not +100%

[Baki]

has anybody ever managed to cheat attribute scores? cant get the console command for that to work.

[Baki]

2x faster reload means reload time/2 which is -50% not +100%

 

And what does Rate of Fire x1.2 mean?

 

 

without a doubt you are right that x2 Speed doubles the reload speed / halves the reloadtime.

 

Maybe that means i was intepreting the x1.2 Rate of Fire wrong? 

 

i am confused..

 

If 100% -> 1/(1+1) -> 0,5

then 20% -> 1/(1+0,2) -> 0,83

Edited March 31, 2015 by Baki

[Warden]

i would use the same logic as with the x2

time/1.2 and you will get number which it will be after 1.2 modification

 

in case of x2 its 100%/2 -> 50% which means the modifier is -50%

in case of x1.2 its 100%/1.2 -> 83% which means the modifier is -17%

[Baki]

so actually the modifers were:

 

Dex: 30% Attack and Recovery and Reload Speed?

Penetrating Shot: -20% Recovery

Chant: +17% Recovery, +100% Reload Speed

Armor: -50% Recovery

[Warden]

so actually the modifers were:

 

Dex: 30% Attack and Recovery and Reload Speed?

Penetrating Shot: -20% Recovery

Chant: +17% Recovery, +50% Reload Speed

Armor: -50% Recovery

 

i would switch the +/- because if you want to make something faster you subtract

the in-game descriptions are strange (at least for me anyway), sometimes x2 sometimes % and with armor they write -50% like the armor is making the recovery time to be 50% faster

[Halloween Jack]

Hey guys, did anyone work out or explain why fast melee weapons are a certain speed but all others are equal?

 

Is it really true that an average sword takes as long as a very slow poleaxe (or whatever)?

 

Cheers

[HurrDurr]

Okay, i still dont get it.

 

So, let's see ( and correct me if i'm wrong):

 

Every attack in the game works like this:

attack -> recovery -> attack -> recovery -> .....

with the exception of crossbows and firearms which have added reloadtime in between like this:

attack -> recovery -> reload-> attack -> recovery -> reload -> ....

 

I've read somewhere that recoverytime is doubled while moving. Is this correct?

If it is i would assume that if you start moving after half the recoverytime elapsed (and keep moving until fully recoverd) you would have a recovery time of 1.5x recoveryframes compared to standing still?

What about reload time? Can you even start moving while reloading and if so does it work the same way, or does it cancel or pause the time?

(Sorry for the basic crossbow/firearmes questions, i never paid much attention to it and i can't check right now my self)

 

The game calculates every attack in frames per swing based on 30 frames per second.

Someone said all weapons have the same swingspeed of 30 frames except fast weapons which swing at 20 frames.

First off, is this correct, and if so, does it apply to ranged weapons too? If not, does someone know the correct numbers for each weapon speed?

 

Assuming this is correct, the diffrent weapon speeds would result from diffrent recovery times:

 

first you take default animation speed, lets say some 2h melee wep. which is 30

...

now that we have the animation speed we multiply it by 1.2 to get the default recovery speed -> 21 * 1.2 -> 25.2

 

Now, is "1.2 x animationframes" the default for twohanded weapons, or rather slow weapons (again is there a diffrence between melee and ranged slow?) and what would the multipliers for fast and average weapons be?

Also, in case of crossbows and firearmes, what are the reload times?

 

Also, dexterity is the only way to reduce the frames per swing, and since everyone assumes that recoverytime is based on swingtime it also reduces recovery (and reload?).

Everything else only ever modifies the recovery/reload time.

(Are we even certain that there arent fix recovery(and reload) times based on weaponseed?)

(More on a sidenote, i'm messing around with the time/frame thing here, just to get it right, does the game round frames , for example would 40.1 frames be 41 or 40 frames, or can it acctually calculate 40.1 frames? Well that's rather unimportant but just out of curiosity )

 

For dualwielding, there is no inherent bonus of some sort except that the swingspeed and recoverytimes of each weapon are independent of one antother? (well the first swing of the off-hand weapon starts after the mainhand-swing finshed i guess but thats it)

Edited April 1, 2015 by HurrDurr

[Baki]

yes, recovery time is doubled while moving.

 

you can find my tests for the attack speed of ranged weapons on the first page, last post. beware, im no expert and its hard to tell where an animation begins and ends. so the results will be very inaccurate.

 

recovery=1,2 x attackframes is wrong for ranged weapons. the tests seem to indicate a factor of 1.5

 

reload speed seems to be independent of attack frames but again thats just me interpreting the test results.

 

we know nothing about rounding. 

 

the inherent bonus of dual wield is the lower recovery rate compared to 1h.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Baki

[Slashe]

Ugh. the code they are using are so spagehetti right now.

 

I've found that you can practically set recovery time to 0.5 by doing the switching trick: Get the quick swap talent, excute your attack, before recovery starts and after you hit, cycle the weapons til your desired weapon.

 

What happens is that you will attack -> weapon switch recovery -> attack -> weapn switch recovery -> and so on

 

Its pretty tedious in terms of micro managing, but its great for solo-ers or characters with really high armor.

Pretty sure its a bug/exploit though

 

PS: is 0.5 recovery itme  = 30 frames?

[HurrDurr]

Let me apologize for the double post but somehow i can't edit my last post (or maybe i can't edit it more than once) but i did some test concerning attack rate for ranged weapons, or more specific for the war bow and huntingbow.

 

I did a recording counting the frames for each attack and recovery by pausing the game while my toon was facing away from the enemies and issuing an attack command, this made him turn to the enemy while still paused and i startet counting with the unpause frame.

(For countingpurposes and for anyone intrested, i counted 8 frames before reaching for the quiver for the huntingbow, and 10 for the warbow, which made counting consecutive attacks easier)

I did this with a few attacks for each weapon and the results where quite consistent.

 

 

huntingbow:

attack frames:27   recoveryframes:43

 

warbow:

attackframes:40    recoveryframes:62

 

my toon had 18 dex which results in a 24% increase in attackspeed and recovery time making the basevalues as follow:

 

huntingbow:

attack frames:35,53  recoveryframes:56,58

 

warbow:

attackframes:52,63   recoveryframes:81,58

 

in both cases this resultet in a recovery time ranging from ~1,55 to ~1,59 x attack speed.

 

i also tested the huntingbow with penetrationg shots for which the ingame description stats it reduces attackspeed by 20% but it acctualy increased recoverytime by 20%.

 

Also, the descriptions for weapons ingame have 3 speed values (slow, average, fast) yet for average ranged there are two diffrent attackspeeds (unless ofcourse i completely messed up here :D)  and another for melee again....

 

Hope that helps some people out there.

 

 

@ baki: Thanks for the anwsers.

[Cantousent]

Let me apologize for the double post but somehow i can't edit my last post (or maybe i can't edit it more than once)

It's not really limited by number of edits but rather by time. If you post once and then come back later, you'll probably not be able to edit your post. As long as you're not spamming, a double post from time to time is an age old tradition for online BBSes. :Cant's wry grin icon: Good luck and happy adventuring!

[AlphaMagnum]

Here's another question: how do talents like Two Weapon Style (+20% attack speed) and weapon enchants for +20% attack speed figure in?

 

Do they affect both attack animation and recovery animation? Do they affect just one? If so, which?

[kmbogd]

If my understanding is correct, the base value of recovery speed is 1.2*attack speed. So, if we have an attack animation that takes 30 frames, it would have a recovery of 30*1.2=36 frames. Now if you use the +20% attack speed talent then your attack would have 30 (1-0.2)= 24 frames. Consequently, the recovery will be performed in 1.2*24=28.8 frames. Thus changing the attack speed also has an impact on the recovery speed.

[Baki]

Here's another question: how do talents like Two Weapon Style (+20% attack speed) and weapon enchants for +20% attack speed figure in?

 

Do they affect both attack animation and recovery animation? Do they affect just one? If so, which?

 

it increases only your recovery speed.

[Baki]

Let me apologize for the double post but somehow i can't edit my last post (or maybe i can't edit it more than once) but i did some test concerning attack rate for ranged weapons, or more specific for the war bow and huntingbow.

 

I did a recording counting the frames for each attack and recovery by pausing the game while my toon was facing away from the enemies and issuing an attack command, this made him turn to the enemy while still paused and i startet counting with the unpause frame.

(For countingpurposes and for anyone intrested, i counted 8 frames before reaching for the quiver for the huntingbow, and 10 for the warbow, which made counting consecutive attacks easier)

I did this with a few attacks for each weapon and the results where quite consistent.

 

 

huntingbow:

attack frames:27   recoveryframes:43

 

warbow:

attackframes:40    recoveryframes:62

 

my toon had 18 dex which results in a 24% increase in attackspeed and recovery time making the basevalues as follow:

 

huntingbow:

attack frames:35,53  recoveryframes:56,58

 

warbow:

attackframes:52,63   recoveryframes:81,58

 

in both cases this resultet in a recovery time ranging from ~1,55 to ~1,59 x attack speed.

 

i also tested the huntingbow with penetrationg shots for which the ingame description stats it reduces attackspeed by 20% but it acctualy increased recoverytime by 20%.

 

Also, the descriptions for weapons ingame have 3 speed values (slow, average, fast) yet for average ranged there are two diffrent attackspeeds (unless ofcourse i completely messed up here :D)  and another for melee again....

 

Hope that helps some people out there.

 

 

@ baki: Thanks for the anwsers.

 

thanks for your test but can't you see my post on the first page in this thread? It's a picture with results of that test. Good to get some confirmation though.

[Daemonjax]

 

I noticed that you can change weapon right after arbalest attack without triggering recovery time, not sure if it was intended. With Quick Switch talent switch recovery time is 0.5 sec that is considerably lower than arbalest recovery time, now I wonder if melee 2 great swords switcher is possible  (obvious game bug if it is).

Do not know about melee weapons, but I believe ranged weapons do remember their loaded/unloaded states. Chanter companion reloads his weapon after combat ends, and it should finish reloading before next fight if he intends to shoot and not to reload at the start of next battle.

So, I think, it is possible to take perks for wielding additional weapon sets, and one can carry four rifles or crossbows at a time, then discharge them at the start of battle one after another making good DPS at the beginning of battle, but then he would need to recharge a weapon instead of switching it to another.

 

 

It is the optimal strategy to have both a slow/high damage ranged weapon  equipped on every character.  So, you open combat with that weapon, and then switch to the other weapon to ignore the reload time.  The Quick weapon swap talent makes this strategy work better, but would only be optimal to get for your non-tanks unless your tank(s) also have extra weapon slots.  The only thing I don't like is that there's no easy way to switch weapons for the whole party, so I think the above strategy wasn't playtested and so may not be working as originally intended by the devs.

 

I actually like how the above works mechanically because it adds another layer to how you open combat and expands the meaningful choices to make regarding race and talent selection.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Daemonjax]

I tested attack speed for a dex 10 character wielding one dagger (not dual wielding) attacking a wolf in the tutorial.

 

Used fraps recording at 30 fps, counting frames between hits landing.

 

 

Frame A: Hit landed

58 frames later...

Frame B: Hit landed

59 frames later...

Frame C: Hit landed

58 frames later...

Frame D: Hit landed

59 frames later...

Frame E: Hit landed

 

I expected 56 frames between hits landing (20 animation + 36 recovery)... Maybe there's an additional frame spent at the start of each animation transition (one for starting the attack animation, and another for starting the idle animation)?

 

I'm unable to come up with any explanation for the 58/59 alternating frames between attacks.

 

I'm working on a dps calculator so I want to get the formula right (although I am willing to ignore the 0.5 frame discrepancy).  

 

Edit: after watching the video frame by frame a few more times, the number of frames that the recovery bar displays any yellow is exactly 32, and then 4 frames after it's empty, the attack animation begins again... so that seems to jive with 36  frames as expected... so the extra ~2 frames between attacks landing happen between the end of the attack animation sequence and between the display of the yellow recovery bar -- effectively, the attack animation is 22 frames long and I'll see how that fits (expectedAttackAnimationTime + 2) with other weapons with different attack speeds.

 

Edit2: 1h sword swings alternate between 85 and 87 frames between landed hits. Using the formula: ((expectedAttackAnimationTime + 2) + expectedRecoveryAnimationTime) would equal 86... I'll see how it holds up to bows.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Daemonjax

[Warden]

If my understanding is correct, the base value of recovery speed is 1.2*attack speed. So, if we have an attack animation that takes 30 frames, it would have a recovery of 30*1.2=36 frames. Now if you use the +20% attack speed talent then your attack would have 30 (1-0.2)= 24 frames. Consequently, the recovery will be performed in 1.2*24=28.8 frames. Thus changing the attack speed also has an impact on the recovery speed.

 

all in-game description "attack speeds" are changing the recovery speed

except the DEX

[tnc]

Instead on making another combat mechanics thread, I'll add my question to this.

 

Could someone with better insight than me please explain the wound mechanic on the monk class?

 

I get that you need to take damage, and as far as I understand it (based on what I read about the class in the character creator) goes something like this (numbers as an example):

1) You get hit

2) The hits damages for 10 points of damage

3) The 10 points of damage are reduced by 3 due to armor

4) The remaining 7 points of damage are put into a Wound pool

5) If the Wound pool reaches max you get a Wound counter

6) If the wound pool only needed 5 points of damage to fill, the remaining 2 hit you for 2 endurance damage

 

My question is, am I understanding this right, because it doesn't sound right and to me it seems endurance take all the damage and it's pure chance if I get a wound counter.

I dont know where u got that from. You get 1 wound per 10 endurance damage you take its that simple.

[Akos]

My observations from beating the first two wolves in the game senselessly, over and over again (Sorry PETA), with the main character and Calisca at 10 Dexterity:

'Slow' Weapons (Greatsword, in my testing) have a noticeable amount of delay before and after the red numbers appear that makes the weapon slower than a one handed, 'average' speed variant (Sword, in my testing). The recovery appears to be about the same amount of time as the 'average' speed weapon, but because the animation is lengthier on 'slow' weapon the 'average' weapon was able to apply damage more frequently. 

'Average' and 'fast' weapons (Sword and Dagger, in my testing) appear to have exactly the same animation time; having my character and Calisca hit a wolf at exactly the same time had their red numbers appearing on top of one another with their respective recovery bars starting at roughly same time. The 'fast' weapon's recovery speed was noticeably faster than the 'average' weapon. 

 

This seems to conflict slightly with the data provided by Sensuki, but makes sense given the weapon descriptions in the game. If there wasn't something that made two-handed weapons slower they would have numerically been best melee-weapon in the game without argument. Two-Handed Style would out perform Two-Weapon Style at around 84 frames (or the second time a Greatsword hits) with Two-Weapon style not being able to do anything to close the gap, which would have been an egregious example of poor balancing.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have video recording software installed on this computer to get an accurate count on the frames of animation currently being used in the game. I'd be interested in that information if anyone else has accurate numbers.  

 

-- 

 

For giggles I set my Dexterity to 999 resulting in a +2970% action speed bonus. I can safely confirm then that Dexterity absolutely has an affect on both the animation and recovery speed of an attack as my main character was doing damage faster than the game could play an animation, resulting in near-instant death of both wolves with my character twitching very rapidly. 

 

Similarly, lowering my Dexterity to 1 resulting in a -27% action speed malus had a slight affect on both the animation and recovery speed of an average attack weapon; Calisca was hitting slightly sooner than my character when attacks were initiated at the same time. Unfortunately I have no methods of making myself attack any slower that early in the game. 

I'm under the impression, then, that Two Weapon Fighting likely does have an affect on both the recovery and animation speed of weapons, but I would need to test it to be certain. I can't imagine they've coded for different types of weapon speed adjustments, but I could be wrong. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by Akos

[Daemonjax]

I tested attack speed for a dex 10 character wielding one dagger (not dual wielding) attacking a wolf in the tutorial.

 

Used fraps recording at 30 fps, counting frames between hits landing.

 

 

Frame A: Hit landed

58 frames later...

Frame B: Hit landed

59 frames later...

Frame C: Hit landed

58 frames later...

Frame D: Hit landed

59 frames later...

Frame E: Hit landed

 

I expected 56 frames between hits landing (20 animation + 36 recovery)... Maybe there's an additional frame spent at the start of each animation transition (one for starting the attack animation, and another for starting the idle animation)?

 

I'm unable to come up with any explanation for the 58/59 alternating frames between attacks.

 

I'm working on a dps calculator so I want to get the formula right (although I am willing to ignore the 0.5 frame discrepancy).  

 

Edit: after watching the video frame by frame a few more times, the number of frames that the recovery bar displays any yellow is exactly 32, and then 4 frames after it's empty, the attack animation begins again... so that seems to jive with 36  frames as expected... so the extra ~2 frames between attacks landing happen between the end of the attack animation sequence and between the display of the yellow recovery bar -- effectively, the attack animation is 22 frames long and I'll see how that fits (expectedAttackAnimationTime + 2) with other weapons with different attack speeds.

 

Edit2: 1h sword swings alternate between 85 and 87 frames between landed hits. Using the formula: ((expectedAttackAnimationTime + 2) + expectedRecoveryAnimationTime) would equal 86... I'll see how it holds up to bows.

 

Edit3: 2h swords alternate between 86 and 89 frames between landed hits... only 1.5 frames slower than a 1h sword (also verified the attack animation time was in fact 30 frames).  Although I didn't mention it earlier, all tests were done using a naked character.

 

Code incase anyone cares:

double getAnimationTime()
{
		switch(this)
		{
				case FAST:    return 20;
				default:      return 30;
		}
}

double getRecoveryTime()
{
		switch(this)
		{
				case FAST:    return 20 * GLOBAL_RECOVERY_TIME_MULTIPLIER; //1.20
				case AVERAGE: return 30 * GLOBAL_RECOVERY_TIME_MULTIPLIER;
				default:      return 31 * GLOBAL_RECOVERY_TIME_MULTIPLIER; // 31 correct? Seems to work with 2h sword
		}
}

double getDPS()
{
		double damage = 0;
		double time = 0;

		time    += weaponA.animationTime;
		//System.out.println(time);
		damage  += weaponA.averageDamage;

		if (isDualWielding)
		{
				time   += 2 + weaponA.recoveryTime;
				time   += weaponB.animationTime;
				damage += weaponB.averageDamage;
				time   += 2 + weaponB.recoveryTime;
		}
		else
		{
				time += 2 + weaponA.recoveryTime * 1.5;
				//System.out.println(weaponA.recoveryTime * 1.5);
		}

		//System.out.println(time);
	
		return damage * FPS / time; 
                //using fps = 30 by the way
}

Edit4: Hunter's Bow is consistently 84 frames between hits landing.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Daemonjax