Which Attributes for which class? And how high?

[Giantevilhead]

I guess dex allows you to cast buffs/debuffs faster. Maybe it allows you to use certain abilities faster. But that doesn't seem very significant.

[GreyZ]

Can you give an example of something which profits from dex, but not from might?

Except of a spell which just slows for example, as this of course does not include anything which could be affected by might.

well just a very simplistic example for weapon damage:

 

1 attack per second

10 base damage

+ 20% dmg through some talent

+ 10% through enchantment

= 13 dps

 

1 attack per second

10 base damage

+ 20% dmg through some talent

+ 10% through enchantment

+ 20% through might

= 15 dps

 

1 attack per second

+20% speed bonus (so effectively 1.2 attacks per second )

10 base damage

+ 20% dmg through some talent

+ 10% through enchantment

= 15.6 dps

 

 

Since damage multipliers are additive in poe, the more you stack, the more you end up profiting from an increased attack rate.

Of course this is just theorycraft, but it's just something to keep in mind in regards to recovery bonus scaling. Basically any damage multiplier you have will scale with reduced recovery times, which is not the case with might.

Not trying to say Dex is better or even as good as might, I don't know the game anywhere well enough to make any kind of judgement like that, but it's just important to keep in mind that the math and impact of a damage bonus and a recovery bonus are quite different.

Edited March 20, 2015 by GreyZ

[Azmodiuz]

nearly every fight I've seen only lasted 2-3 "rounds" attacking extra made little difference.  Killing things nearly instantly cause it gets hit by 6 members of the team at once, makes much bigger difference.

Most the members who had extra attacks, were cause they finished killing something and now have nothing to do... extra attacks are only so useful as they are being used. 

Might, always useful. Directly adds more damage.  Maybe you only get one shot ever, in combat with the musket or whatever... might as well do alot of damage.
To make best use of dexterity, you really have to be qeueing up your actions and miss no chance to act IMO.

[GreyZ]

nearly every fight I've seen only lasted 2-3 "rounds" attacking extra made little difference.  Killing things nearly instantly cause it gets hit by 6 members of the team at once, makes much bigger difference.

 

Most the members who had extra attacks, were cause they finished killing something and now have nothing to do... extra attacks are only so useful as they are being used. 

 

Might, always useful. Directly adds more damage.  Maybe you only get one shot ever, in combat with the musket or whatever... might as well do alot of damage.

To make best use of dexterity, you really have to be qeueing up your actions and miss no chance to act IMO.

True, might is very straight forward, can't really go wrong with it.

But looking at it from a endgame min-max perspective you can stack very high amount of damage multipliers in the late game through weapon quality enchants, secondary damage, slaying, modals, talents, sneak attacks, crits etc and might doesnt scale with anything, while recovery scales with everything.

If you for example ended up with a 100% damage bonus through all of that, every % of attack speed increase gives you twice as much dps as every additional % of damage bonus. So the big factor is how much DR you need to expect in the late game, that's a big deciding balance factor.

So for example a high dex rogue with an estoc could be dishing out significantly more overall dps than a high might rogue, depending on available equipment and endgame dr of enemies.

Edited March 20, 2015 by GreyZ

[Failion]

My guess is that dex will be more relevant higher levels and with enchantments. In dnd early game ights are fast later on they tend to be slug fests. Also defenses may be important factor in fights in the game. Ignoring will and reflexes could get you stomped in some encounters. Developers could make mind flayer enemies that attacks ignore deflection and target only will for example. 

Edited March 20, 2015 by Failion

[Giantevilhead]

 

Can you give an example of something which profits from dex, but not from might?

Except of a spell which just slows for example, as this of course does not include anything which could be affected by might.

well just a very simplistic example for weapon damage:

 

1 attack per second

10 base damage

+ 20% dmg through some talent

+ 10% through enchantment

= 13 dps

 

1 attack per second

10 base damage

+ 20% dmg through some talent

+ 10% through enchantment

+ 20% through might

= 15 dps

 

1 attack per second

+20% speed bonus (so effectively 1.2 attacks per second )

10 base damage

+ 20% dmg through some talent

+ 10% through enchantment

= 15.6 dps

 

 

Since damage multipliers are additive in poe, the more you stack, the more you end up profiting from an increased attack rate.

Of course this is just theorycraft, but it's just something to keep in mind in regards to recovery bonus scaling. Basically any damage multiplier you have will scale with reduced recovery times, which is not the case with might.

Not trying to say Dex is better or even as good as might, I don't know the game anywhere well enough to make any kind of judgement like that, but it's just important to keep in mind that the math and impact of a damage bonus and a recovery bonus are quite different.

 

 

But if dex only affects attack/casting speed and not recovery time, then the bonus it gives is really only half of it says. So you'll need a lot of additional effects and damage bonuses to make it worthwhile.

[Namutree]

 

 

But if dex only affects attack/casting speed and not recovery time, then the bonus it gives is really only half of it says. So you'll need a lot of additional effects and damage bonuses to make it worthwhile.

 

It also speeds up actions like drinking a potion so it's not just about attacking.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Namutree

[Kordanor]

 

 

Can you give an example of something which profits from dex, but not from might?

Except of a spell which just slows for example, as this of course does not include anything which could be affected by might.

well just a very simplistic example for weapon damage:

 

1 attack per second

10 base damage

+ 20% dmg through some talent

+ 10% through enchantment

= 13 dps

 

1 attack per second

10 base damage

+ 20% dmg through some talent

+ 10% through enchantment

+ 20% through might

= 15 dps

 

1 attack per second

+20% speed bonus (so effectively 1.2 attacks per second )

10 base damage

+ 20% dmg through some talent

+ 10% through enchantment

= 15.6 dps

 

 

Since damage multipliers are additive in poe, the more you stack, the more you end up profiting from an increased attack rate.

Of course this is just theorycraft, but it's just something to keep in mind in regards to recovery bonus scaling. Basically any damage multiplier you have will scale with reduced recovery times, which is not the case with might.

Not trying to say Dex is better or even as good as might, I don't know the game anywhere well enough to make any kind of judgement like that, but it's just important to keep in mind that the math and impact of a damage bonus and a recovery bonus are quite different.

 

 

But if dex only affects attack/casting speed and not recovery time, then the bonus it gives is really only half of it says. So you'll need a lot of additional effects and damage bonuses to make it worthwhile.

 

Sensuki mentioned in one of his videos that they intended to change that. But I don't know if they did or still intend to do.

[Sensuki]

Dex does affect base recovery time.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Sensuki

[Kordanor]

Cool, thanks!

 

 

So to correct my previous posting - one cycle with 2H weapons would be:

AttackSpeed * (1-DexSpeed) + RecoverSpeed * (1- DexSpeed + ArmorPenalty)

AttackSpeed = 30 Frames -> 1s

RecoverySpeed = 54 Frames ->1.8s

 

With the example of 15 Dex and 20% armor it's

1*0.85 + 1.8 * (1 - 0.15 + 0.2)

= 0.85 + 1.89

= 2.74

 

With 10 Dex and 20% however it's

1*1+1.8*(1+0.2)

=1+2,16

=3.16

 

So it's only taking 87% of the time. Which isn't too bad.

 

(Edit: Multiple math corrections as I always forgot to include something)

 

Also adding the top DPS (by Base Damge) Numbers with 2 fast weapons:

 

 

2*AttackSpeed * (1-DexSpeed) + 2*RecoverSpeed * (1- DexSpeed + ArmorPenalty)

AttackSpeed = 20 Frames -> 0.67s

RecoverySpeed = 24 Frames ->0.8s

 

With the example of 15 Dex and 20% armor it's

1.33*0.85 + 1.6 * (1 - 0.15 + 0.2)

= 1.13 + 1.68

= 2.81

 

With 10 Dex and 20% however it's

1.33*1+1.6*(1+0.2)

=1.33+1.92

=3.25

 

And that's 86% of the normal time.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Kordanor

[Kordanor]

Guess I have to correct my previous post. As the speed boost is probably no deduction. That way with a 100% boost, you had an infinitely high attack speed.

 

So just ignore what I wrote before.

It's more likely that it's calculated:

So to correct my previous posting - one cycle with 2H weapons would be:

AttackSpeed / (1+DexSpeed) + RecoverSpeed*(1+ ArmorPenalty) / (1+ DexSpeed)

AttackSpeed = 30 Frames -> 1s

RecoverySpeed = 54 Frames ->1.8s

 

With the example of 15 Dex and 20% armor it's

1/1.15 + 1.8*1.2 / 1.15

= 0,87 + 1,88

= 2.75

 

With 10 Dex and 20% however it's

1/1+1.8*1.2/1

=1+2,16

=3,16

 

And this would actually mean it only takes 0,87% of the time.

Which is the same result as before, but the formula doesnt go into infinity. ^^

 

But correct me if I am wrong. My last math classes are more then a decade in the past.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Kordanor

[Azmodiuz]

ultimately, dexterity needs a boost too, it needs to "lessen" recovery penalties from armor. That should be a very good place to start.  so say your dexterity is giving 20%, and your in heavy gear -50% recovery.. it would  be 40% recovery. the rest stays the same. From there, I would then make Dexterity also add +1 accuracy/dex   small addition, but also making sense. Now, at 20 dex, you can recovery 10% faster and have +10 accuracy. This makes sense. Its even pretty balanced.

don't forget resolve and constitution need balancing too, they suck even more. 

[Bryy]

All Casters: Max INT followed by MGT or DEX.

Tanks: Max RES followed by MGT or INT.

Everyone else: Max MGT, DEX or INT, or a combination.

Pretty much. 

[Namutree]

ultimately, dexterity needs a boost too, it needs to "lessen" recovery penalties from armor. That should be a very good place to start.  so say your dexterity is giving 20%, and your in heavy gear -50% recovery.. it would  be 40% recovery. the rest stays the same. From there, I would then make Dexterity also add +1 accuracy/dex   small addition, but also making sense. Now, at 20 dex, you can recovery 10% faster and have +10 accuracy. This makes sense. Its even pretty balanced.

 

don't forget resolve and constitution need balancing too, they suck even more. 

Would it still increase action speed? If so it'd absurdly OP.

 

BTW: DEX doesn't need a boost compared to RES and PER, so before messing with attributes that are fine OE should focus on the weak attributes.

[Sensuki]

you should make your calculations in frames, not seconds because you cannot have a decimal frame, it's either frame 28 or frame 29, you know what I'm saying ?

[Kordanor]

I understand what you mean. And this means that some dex increases with fast weapons will not show the full speed increase, as 3% of 20 frames are not always enough to speed it up by one frame. Which also means by dual wield that in some cases, that this difference will be doubled.

 

But as we don't know how the system rounds up/down and it's almost impossible to test, I don't think there is too much use of going into that detail.

[Kordanor]

I just realized that in the Wiki over here the duration was moved from Intelligence and is now a part of the Resolve Attribute.

[budyn]

how much dex should i pump into my monk?iam going to be some kind of offtank but concentrated on raping mages/rangers/priests.

[Veevoir]

I just realized that in the Wiki over here the duration was moved from Intelligence and is now a part of the Resolve Attribute.

 

On what basis? Press beta?

 

Could anyone, eg. @Sensuki confirm that change has happened?

[Luckmann]

 

I just realized that in the Wiki over here the duration was moved from Intelligence and is now a part of the Resolve Attribute.

 

On what basis? Press beta?

 

Could anyone, eg. @Sensuki confirm that change has happened?

 

Probably ignorance on part of the editor. +Duration used to be part of Resolve, but it was changed to Intellect before BBv435.

[Veevoir]

Funny, because it would actually be better this way. Making Int less of a requirement and res a bit more attractive.

[Luckmann]

Funny, because it would actually be better this way. Making Int less of a requirement and res a bit more attractive.

I've suggested repeatedly that INT should have +Duration while RES gets the +AoE. I really hate how INT is a consolidated caster Attribute that is also powerful for everyone else.

 

 

My current standing suggestion:

Suggested Modifiers:

MGT: +3% Damage & Healing, +2 Interrupt +2 Fortitude.
CON: +1 Endurance & Health, +3% Endurance & Health, +2% Concentration, +2 Fortitude.
DEX: +3% Action Speed, +2 Deflection +2 Reflex.
PER: +1 Accuracy, +4 Interrupt, +2 Reflex.
INT: +6% Duration, +2 Deflection, +2 Will.
RES: +6% AoE, +6% Concentration, +2 Will.

• There would be a greater synergy between some of the Attributes, for focused builds, such as a interrupter (Interrupt) that hits hard (MGT) and precise (PER) with every blow, the intelligent (INT) and nimble (DEX) warrior playing on his defensive strengths (Deflection), or a focused (RES) and athletic (CON) man that pushes through no matter how hard he's hit (Concentration).
• Intellect would now be an option for the intelligent, defensive warrior.
• Intellect would no longer be the one-stop-shop for casters.
• Resolve reaffirms it's position as the Attribute that represents a character's power (or wish) to influence the world or not be influenced by it.
• Constitution is no longer largely meaningless, and slightly less of a dump stat. A small but significant boost, but mostly conceptually. Assuming a Con of 20 ("fully maxed") the flat modifier to Health & Endurance is equal to one extra level's worth for Wizards (10/level), but not near as much to Barbarians (16/level).
• Perception may appear overvalued again, but do note that the bonus to interrupt has been cut in half.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2015 by Luckmann

[Namutree]

INT is the God of all attributes. 

[willdunz]

so for cipher I just need to pump int mig and a little dex?

[Elerond]

so for cipher I just need to pump int mig and a little dex?

 

It depends what you want your character to do, but that will work any build that focuses on damage, although if you decide to use slower weapons like arquebus I would switch might and dex, as dex will add your damage output more as you can shoot more.