Journalism and bias in the gaming industry.

[Amentep]

• There is no truth, only competing agendas.

  1)Nonsense, there are many truths that have been proven and are irrefutable. For example, Russia is actively involved in Ukraine and Nigeria is having an a hotly contested presidential  election tomorrow

 

Well, can you prove that Russia is actively involved in Ukraine and Nigeria is holding elections?

 

Posting news articles doesn't prove it, all that proved is that there are people CLAIMING these things are happening, but there is no proof they are.

 

Heck there's no objective proof that Russia, Ukraine or Nigeria even exist. I can't even prove you posted the response I'm responding to, nor can you prove I posted this.

 

Solipsism FTW!

Edited March 27, 2015 by Amentep

[BruceVC]

 

• There is no truth, only competing agendas.

    1)Nonsense, there are many truths that have been proven and are irrefutable. For example, Russia is actively involved in Ukraine and Nigeria is having an a hotly contested presidential  election tomorrow

 

Well, can you prove that Russia is actively involved in Russia and Nigeria is holding elections?

 

Posting news articles doesn't prove it, all that proved is that there are people CLAIMING these things are happening, but there is no proof they are.

 

Heck there's no objective proof that Russia, Ukraine or Nigeria even exist. I can't even prove you posted the response I'm responding to, nor can you prove I posted this.

 

Solipsism FTW!

 

 This post made me laugh 

 

Well you are quite talented at the art of sophistry..but you don't always debate like that. Like when you asked me during the Mad Men debate if I had actually had confimation about how women were treated in the 1960s ...it made me chuckle 

Edited March 27, 2015 by BruceVC

[Amentep]

 This post made me laugh 

 

Well you are quite talented at the art of sophistry..but you don't always debate like that. Like when you asked me during the Mad Men debate if I had actually had confimation about how women were treated in the 1960s ...it made me chuckle

Mostly trying to inject some humor. Or some solipsism. Whatever.

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

In between playing PoE, i stumbled upon this: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=260

 

 

In a previous post on Suicidalism, I identified some of the most important of the Soviet Union’s memetic weapons. Here is that list again:

• There is no truth, only competing agendas.
• All Western (and especially American) claims to moral superiority over Communism/Fascism/Islam are vitiated by the West’s history of racism and colonialism.
• There are no objective standards by which we may judge one culture to be better than another. Anyone who claims that there are such standards is an evil oppressor.
• The prosperity of the West is built on ruthless exploitation of the Third World; therefore Westerners actually deserve to be impoverished and miserable.
• Crime is the fault of society, not the individual criminal. Poor criminals are entitled to what they take. Submitting to criminal predation is more virtuous than resisting it.
• The poor are victims. Criminals are victims. And only victims are virtuous. Therefore only the poor and criminals are virtuous. (Rich people can borrow some virtue by identifying with poor people and criminals.)
• For a virtuous person, violence and war are never justified. It is always better to be a victim than to fight, or even to defend oneself. But ‘oppressed’ people are allowed to use violence anyway; they are merely reflecting the evil of their oppressors.
• When confronted with terror, the only moral course for a Westerner is to apologize for past sins, understand the terrorist’s point of view, and make concessions.

 

Sound familiar?

 

I'm not sure what that is but its very irritating with its generalizations and flawed logic 

 

 

No one gives a damn if you find it irritating. Either you put up a counter argument on why old Soviet disinformation campaigns have absolutely no resemblance on to how the anti-GGs argue and what kind rhetoric they employ. Even Baroth can come up with counterarguments with great substance if poked enough, so you do have zero excuses.

 

Either you put up or shut up.

 

 

You seem to have misunderstood me , I didn't think  you guys would be interested in what I don't like about those points. Thats why I didn't comment further, its not that I didn't want to 

 

And since you have asked me to respond I gladly will , I thoroughly enjoy these types of debates 

 

• There is no truth, only competing agendas.

      1)Nonsense, there are many truths that have been proven and are irrefutable. For example, Russia is actively involved in Ukraine and Nigeria is having an a hotly contested presidential  election tomorrow 

• All Western (and especially American) claims to moral superiority over Communism/Fascism/Islam are vitiated by the West’s history of racism and colonialism.

2) Never..not in a million years. Of course the West has aspects of a checkered past but comparing the West to the purges of Stalin or Hitler is just silly and no serious historian will agree with that, its just hyperbole 

•  
• There are no objective standards by which we may judge one culture to be better than another. Anyone who claims that there are such standards is an evil oppressor.

3)Again wrong, we dont pass judgement on the wealth or education of the citizens in other countries. We generally pass judgement on how they treat there citizens and effectively govern there country. And there are still some  appalling examples of leadership in the world and there is no way they aren't going to get criticized 

• The prosperity of the West is built on ruthless exploitation of the Third World; therefore Westerners actually deserve to be impoverished and miserable.

4 )This is obviously a joke ..and it did make me  laugh

• Crime is the fault of society, not the individual criminal. Poor criminals are entitled to what they take. Submitting to criminal predation is more virtuous than resisting it.

5)No if you break the law there must be consequences.

• The poor are victims. Criminals are victims. And only victims are virtuous. Therefore only the poor and criminals are virtuous. (Rich people can borrow some virtue by identifying with poor people and criminals.)
• For a virtuous person, violence and war are never justified. It is always better to be a victim than to fight, or even to defend oneself. But ‘oppressed’ people are allowed to use violence anyway; they are merely reflecting the evil of their oppressors.

6)Also funny 

 

• When confronted with terror, the only moral course for a Westerner is to apologize for past sins, understand the terrorist’s point of view, and make concessions 

....in fact is this whole thing suppose to be a joke ?

 

 

That's more like it.

 

You do realize what i was trying point out the similarities of the underlying philosophy of the people of anti-GG vs. Soviet KGB subversion methods and not you personally?

[Nonek]

• All Western (and especially American) claims to moral superiority over Communism/Fascism/Islam are vitiated by the West’s history of racism and colonialism.

2) Never..not in a million years. Of course the West has aspects of a checkered past but comparing the West to the purges of Stalin or Hitler is just silly and no serious historian will agree with that, its just hyperbole

 

 

Germany is now no longer part of the west?

Edited March 27, 2015 by Nonek

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

In between playing PoE, i stumbled upon this: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=260

 

 

In a previous post on Suicidalism, I identified some of the most important of the Soviet Union’s memetic weapons. Here is that list again:

• There is no truth, only competing agendas.
• All Western (and especially American) claims to moral superiority over Communism/Fascism/Islam are vitiated by the West’s history of racism and colonialism.
• There are no objective standards by which we may judge one culture to be better than another. Anyone who claims that there are such standards is an evil oppressor.
• The prosperity of the West is built on ruthless exploitation of the Third World; therefore Westerners actually deserve to be impoverished and miserable.
• Crime is the fault of society, not the individual criminal. Poor criminals are entitled to what they take. Submitting to criminal predation is more virtuous than resisting it.
• The poor are victims. Criminals are victims. And only victims are virtuous. Therefore only the poor and criminals are virtuous. (Rich people can borrow some virtue by identifying with poor people and criminals.)
• For a virtuous person, violence and war are never justified. It is always better to be a victim than to fight, or even to defend oneself. But ‘oppressed’ people are allowed to use violence anyway; they are merely reflecting the evil of their oppressors.
• When confronted with terror, the only moral course for a Westerner is to apologize for past sins, understand the terrorist’s point of view, and make concessions.

 

Sound familiar?

 

I'm not sure what that is but its very irritating with its generalizations and flawed logic 

 

 

No one gives a damn if you find it irritating. Either you put up a counter argument on why old Soviet disinformation campaigns have absolutely no resemblance on to how the anti-GGs argue and what kind rhetoric they employ. Even Baroth can come up with counterarguments with great substance if poked enough, so you do have zero excuses.

 

Either you put up or shut up.

 

 

You seem to have misunderstood me , I didn't think  you guys would be interested in what I don't like about those points. Thats why I didn't comment further, its not that I didn't want to 

 

And since you have asked me to respond I gladly will , I thoroughly enjoy these types of debates 

 

• There is no truth, only competing agendas.

      1)Nonsense, there are many truths that have been proven and are irrefutable. For example, Russia is actively involved in Ukraine and Nigeria is having an a hotly contested presidential  election tomorrow 

• All Western (and especially American) claims to moral superiority over Communism/Fascism/Islam are vitiated by the West’s history of racism and colonialism.

2) Never..not in a million years. Of course the West has aspects of a checkered past but comparing the West to the purges of Stalin or Hitler is just silly and no serious historian will agree with that, its just hyperbole 

•  
• There are no objective standards by which we may judge one culture to be better than another. Anyone who claims that there are such standards is an evil oppressor.

3)Again wrong, we dont pass judgement on the wealth or education of the citizens in other countries. We generally pass judgement on how they treat there citizens and effectively govern there country. And there are still some  appalling examples of leadership in the world and there is no way they aren't going to get criticized 

• The prosperity of the West is built on ruthless exploitation of the Third World; therefore Westerners actually deserve to be impoverished and miserable.

4 )This is obviously a joke ..and it did make me  laugh

• Crime is the fault of society, not the individual criminal. Poor criminals are entitled to what they take. Submitting to criminal predation is more virtuous than resisting it.

5)No if you break the law there must be consequences.

• The poor are victims. Criminals are victims. And only victims are virtuous. Therefore only the poor and criminals are virtuous. (Rich people can borrow some virtue by identifying with poor people and criminals.)
• For a virtuous person, violence and war are never justified. It is always better to be a victim than to fight, or even to defend oneself. But ‘oppressed’ people are allowed to use violence anyway; they are merely reflecting the evil of their oppressors.

6)Also funny 

 

• When confronted with terror, the only moral course for a Westerner is to apologize for past sins, understand the terrorist’s point of view, and make concessions 

....in fact is this whole thing suppose to be a joke ?

 

 

That's more like it.

 

You do realize what i was trying point out the similarities of the underlying philosophy of the people of anti-GG vs. Soviet KGB subversion methods and not you personally?

 

 

I only realized that later

 

I didn't read the  previous posts. But this is just your interpretation of anti-GG right, this is not actually there philosophy...its meant as a joke?

[BruceVC]

 

• All Western (and especially American) claims to moral superiority over Communism/Fascism/Islam are vitiated by the West’s history of racism and colonialism.

2) Never..not in a million years. Of course the West has aspects of a checkered past but comparing the West to the purges of Stalin or Hitler is just silly and no serious historian will agree with that, its just hyperbole

 

 

Germany is now no longer part of the west?

 

 

No it  it is

[Meshugger]

Pray tell, do these phrases sound familiar?

 

-There are no objective truths, just personal experiences

-Feelings matter more than facts

-Listen & Believe

-Patriarchy (western culture, white men) is problematic. Especially in games

 

How are these any different from what the Gramscian example before?

[Nonek]

 

 

• All Western (and especially American) claims to moral superiority over Communism/Fascism/Islam are vitiated by the West’s history of racism and colonialism.

2) Never..not in a million years. Of course the West has aspects of a checkered past but comparing the West to the purges of Stalin or Hitler is just silly and no serious historian will agree with that, its just hyperbole

 

 

Germany is now no longer part of the west?

 

 

No it  it is

 

 

Ah then your statement was utterly wrong and you accept this.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

• All Western (and especially American) claims to moral superiority over Communism/Fascism/Islam are vitiated by the West’s history of racism and colonialism.

2) Never..not in a million years. Of course the West has aspects of a checkered past but comparing the West to the purges of Stalin or Hitler is just silly and no serious historian will agree with that, its just hyperbole

 

 

Germany is now no longer part of the west?

 

 

No it  it is

 

 

Ah then your statement was utterly wrong and you accept this.

 

Yes I should have worded that sentence better, because what I really meant is that most Western countries don't have the same amount of blood on there hands as your classic dictators like Stalin or Hitler 

[BruceVC]

Pray tell, do these phrases sound familiar?

 

-There are no objective truths, just personal experiences

-Feelings matter more than facts

-Listen & Believe

-Patriarchy (western culture, white men) is problematic. Especially in games

 

How are these any different from what the Gramscian example before?

 

Yes they are similar but all these statements would concern me if someone really used them as form of a political manifesto for any  group. Thats why that Gramscian article distances itself from them 

[Nonek]

No almost every western nation (if not every nation on Earth) has just as much blood on its hands as every other, study history.

[Meshugger]

 

Pray tell, do these phrases sound familiar?

 

-There are no objective truths, just personal experiences

-Feelings matter more than facts

-Listen & Believe

-Patriarchy (western culture, white men) is problematic. Especially in games

 

How are these any different from what the Gramscian example before?

 

Yes they are similar but all these statements would concern me if someone really used them as form of a political manifesto for any  group. Thats why that Gramscian article distances itself from them 

 

 

So you would be concerned about the "Gamers are dead"-articles if, and only if, they all officially abided by an ethos or from a political manifesto?

[BruceVC]

No almost every western nation (if not every nation on Earth) has just as much blood on its hands as every other, study history.

 

No almost every western nation (if not every nation on Earth) has just as much blood on its hands as every other, study history.

 

Oh I have studied history, or rather I have focused on key areas.

 

But your point is really  a moot point, I could say for arguments sake just to be fastidious " in the last 200 years no Western countries have as much blood on there hands as Hitler or Stalin " 

 

The reality is we cannot say with absolute certainty how many people were killed in the last 2000 years due to Western influence because accurate records were not  kept as opposed to lets say the last 200 years 

 

I can say " Stalin killed 20 million of his own people " and I can guarantee you that many people were not killed in the 600 years of the Crusades but that's because  there weren't 20 million people  alive in the region so it would be an unfair comparison 

 

So you wouldn't be able to irrefutably  prove "every western nation (if not every nation on Earth) has just as much blood on its hands as every other, study history."  ?

[BruceVC]

 

 

Pray tell, do these phrases sound familiar?

 

-There are no objective truths, just personal experiences

-Feelings matter more than facts

-Listen & Believe

-Patriarchy (western culture, white men) is problematic. Especially in games

 

How are these any different from what the Gramscian example before?

 

Yes they are similar but all these statements would concern me if someone really used them as form of a political manifesto for any  group. Thats why that Gramscian article distances itself from them 

 

 

So you would be concerned about the "Gamers are dead"-articles if, and only if, they all officially abided by an ethos or from a political manifesto?

 

No not at all, I read any article that is relevant and then react to it based on what the message is, how its getting explained and finally does it resonate with me

 

I will never understand how some of guys reacted to that Leigh Alexander article. It fascinates me that people like me took something positive from it yet many people were really offended which then lead to them getting annoyed

 

I do think the  reaction to the Leigh Alexander article and the creation of GG was really just a result of years of frustration from gamers  by being treated a certain way and being lectured by SJW on what is acceptable in gaming

 

The irony being yes SJ movements are real and influential but not much has changed or will change...so its like you guys reacted more to the suggestion of change than actual change 

[Nonek]

No Bruce I have studied history and geography (because i know where Germany is) and I can state that no nation has moral superiority in terms of murder and warfare, this has been a constant throughout human history and history does not limit itself to the last two centuries. Murder and warfare have never been out of bounds, and a constant altrernative for conquerers. Whether it be the massive losses of life across the world in the Napoleonic Wars, the massive losses of life in the American Civil War which heralded many modern conflict, Massive civilian casualties due to English ineptitude in the Boer War, the huge loss of life and mass migration caused by the Potato Famine in Ireland to ancient conflicts such as Ceasar killing two million in Gaul and enslaving two million more, or the Great Khan commiting genocide in China. Not to mention the massive loss of life in the first World War, just twenty one years before the second.

 

You are factually incorrect as always.

 

Edit: There are and were far more than twenty million people in the lands where Crusades have been declared.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Nonek

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

Pray tell, do these phrases sound familiar?

 

-There are no objective truths, just personal experiences

-Feelings matter more than facts

-Listen & Believe

-Patriarchy (western culture, white men) is problematic. Especially in games

 

How are these any different from what the Gramscian example before?

 

Yes they are similar but all these statements would concern me if someone really used them as form of a political manifesto for any  group. Thats why that Gramscian article distances itself from them 

 

 

So you would be concerned about the "Gamers are dead"-articles if, and only if, they all officially abided by an ethos or from a political manifesto?

 

No not at all, I read any article that is relevant and then react to it based on what the message is, how its getting explained and finally does it resonate with me

 

I will never understand how some of guys reacted to that Leigh Alexander article. It fascinates me that people like me took something positive from it yet many people were really offended which then lead to them getting annoyed

 

I do think the  reaction to the Leigh Alexander article and the creation of GG was really just a result of years of frustration from gamers  by being treated a certain way and being lectured by SJW on what is acceptable in gaming

 

The irony being yes SJ movements are real and influential but not much has changed or will change...so its like you guys reacted more to the suggestion of change than actual change 

 

 

So when we have demonstrated the similarities of destructive lines of thought to one philosophy, but you still think think that one positive and other is not without telling the difference? Oh wow.

[BruceVC]

 

No Bruce I have studied history and geography (because i know where Germany is) and I can state that no nation has moral superiority in terms of murder and warfare, this has been a constant throughout human history and history does not limit itself to the last two centuries. Murder and warfare have never been out of bounds, and a constant altrernative for conquerers. Whether it be the massive losses of life across the world in the Napoleonic Wars, the massive losses of life in the American Civil War which heralded many modern conflict, Massive civilian casualties due to English ineptitude in the Boer War, the huge loss of life and mass migration caused by the Potato Famine in Ireland to ancient conflicts such as Ceasar killing two million in Gaul and enslaving two million more, or the Great Khan commiting genocide in China.

 

You are factually incorrect as always.

 

Edit: There are and were far more than twenty million people in the lands where Crusades have been declared.

 

Nonek you are missing the more relevant point 

 

Lets say you right that  in the last 200 year the West is directly responsible for million of deaths...as in committing genocide or purges

 

This is not relevant to how the West conducts itself now, so when I say "Western countries are the best countries in the world as there citizens have the best quality of like and therefore this proves that Western ideology is the most effective, it  works and can be sustained. Western ideology needs to be emulated to several places around the world that would benefit from its wisdom " I don't expect someone to dispute this by saying "well the American civil war was a brutal affair "

 

You see my point ?

Edited March 27, 2015 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pray tell, do these phrases sound familiar?

 

-There are no objective truths, just personal experiences

-Feelings matter more than facts

-Listen & Believe

-Patriarchy (western culture, white men) is problematic. Especially in games

 

How are these any different from what the Gramscian example before?

 

Yes they are similar but all these statements would concern me if someone really used them as form of a political manifesto for any  group. Thats why that Gramscian article distances itself from them 

 

 

So you would be concerned about the "Gamers are dead"-articles if, and only if, they all officially abided by an ethos or from a political manifesto?

 

No not at all, I read any article that is relevant and then react to it based on what the message is, how its getting explained and finally does it resonate with me

 

I will never understand how some of guys reacted to that Leigh Alexander article. It fascinates me that people like me took something positive from it yet many people were really offended which then lead to them getting annoyed

 

I do think the  reaction to the Leigh Alexander article and the creation of GG was really just a result of years of frustration from gamers  by being treated a certain way and being lectured by SJW on what is acceptable in gaming

 

The irony being yes SJ movements are real and influential but not much has changed or will change...so its like you guys reacted more to the suggestion of change than actual change 

 

 

So when we have demonstrated the similarities of destructive lines of thought to one philosophy, but you still think think that one positive and other is not without telling the difference? Oh wow.

 

 

But those are two different things that you are making the same. I had no real issue with the Alexander article but I did find it a little insulting to white gamers because she generalized and didn't explain properly who she was referring to when she said " gamer " so understandably people who were already annoyed reacted a certain way

 

But come on guys...a few generalizations shouldn't effect us and cause us to feel we need to respond in such a dramatic way? 

 

Anyway those other points are ideological statements that applied to Communism...not really the same thing as Leigh Alexanders view on transformation in the gaming industry ?

Edited March 27, 2015 by BruceVC

[Barothmuk]

I'll expand what I mean in relation to modern leftism in a bit. Making dinner.

Expansion.

 

What I mean is the modern (Western) left’s analyses and praxis is highly individualistic and highly submerged in the consumer mentality.

 

Although they’ll certainly pay lip service to X oppressive structure their understanding of it comes from an ultra-liberal idealist perspective so they inevitably always focus on how this effects the individual and more importantly how the individual chooses to respond to this. This is where we get tumblr po-mo nonsense like “agency” and free choices which leads to ridiculous positions like support for institutions such as prostitution or pornography and support for acts like beating and strangling your girl-friend. There are of course those who are somewhat more radical and they’ll highlight that such choices are not free but due to being ignorant of or rejecting the existence of a societal “superstructure” they will then fall back on liberal tactics where they try to challenge them through consumer habits and consumer “shaming”.

 

Another example would be the modern “gender” and “social justice” movements. Gender, rather than being a social construct, a hierarchy or what have you is now a way for the individual to express their own individual style and is an expression of your own agency. Rather than examining what creates and reinforces gender, what purpose it fills and who it harms and benefits the modern leftist instead focuses on “finding which gender fits best” which tends to mean buying a bunch of products and then throwing a label on it. Likewise with “social justice” the emphasis seems to be less concerned hammering out concrete tactics to challenge the existing power structure and more focused on “performance”. I.e. Wearing the right clothes, drinking the right coffees, buying from the right people and shaming those who don’t .

 

Rather than being a movement for liberation and challenging the status-quo modern leftism has reduced itself to a commodity which one can buy to portray an image of uniqueness and individuality.

 

Honestly this is pretty rambley, but what do you expect it’s nearly half past one in the morning here.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Barothmuk

[Nonek]

 

Nonek you are missing the more relevant point 

 

Lets say you right that  in the last 200 year the West is directly responsible for million of deaths...as in committing genocide or purges

 

This is not relevant to how the West conducts itself now, so when I say "Western countries are the best countries in the world as there citizens have the best quality of like and therefore this proves that Western ideology is the most effective, it  works and can be sustained. Western ideology needs to be emulated to several places around the world that would benefit from its wisdom " I don't expect someone to dispute this by saying "well the American civil war was a brutal affair "

 

You see my point ?

 

 

No you are missing the point as always Bruce, no culture or nation can claim moral superiority over another, we have many benefits in the west but there are also aspects that are troublesome or unwanted by some nations. We should be celebrating commonality not telling others to how to think and act, or to listen and believe, the famous quote of Goebbels. Enacting and favouring an agenda of hate and derision is harnmful to everybody.

 

Western culture is not sustainable, we massively over consume and there are growing problems with poverty, substance abuse, illiteracy, as well as of course the harmful trade in prostitution which some hypocrital scum still favour even though they lie about believing in SJ issues.  The west is not a promised land, it has many benefits but it is not perfect or sustainable. I'd prefer to live here than in the east, but I will not take the moral high ground over Russia, even if they are trying to do so through political maneuvering.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Nonek

[BruceVC]

 

 

Nonek you are missing the more relevant point 

 

Lets say you right that  in the last 200 year the West is directly responsible for million of deaths...as in committing genocide or purges

 

This is not relevant to how the West conducts itself now, so when I say "Western countries are the best countries in the world as there citizens have the best quality of like and therefore this proves that Western ideology is the most effective, it  works and can be sustained. Western ideology needs to be emulated to several places around the world that would benefit from its wisdom " I don't expect someone to dispute this by saying "well the American civil war was a brutal affair "

 

You see my point ?

 

 

No you are missing the point as always Bruce, no culture or nation can claim moral superiority over another, we have many benefits in the west but there are also aspects that are troublesome or unwanted by some nations. We should be celebrating commonality not telling others to how to think and act, or to listen and believe, the famous quote of Goebbels. Enacting and favouring an agenda of hate and derision is harnmful to everybody.

 

Western culture is not sustainable, we massively over consume and there are growing problems with poverty, substance abuse, illiteracy, as well as of course the harmful trade in prostitution which some hypocrital scum still favour even though they lie about believing in SJ issues.  The west is not a promised land, it has many benefits but it is not perfect or sustainable. I'd prefer to live here than in the west, but I will not take the moral high ground over Russia, even if they are trying to do so through political maneuvering.

 

 

Post

Edited March 27, 2015 by BruceVC

[Barothmuk]

Baro where do you live? I always thought the USA but then realized I was wrong 

Australia.

 

Why?

[BruceVC]

Its funny Nonek but when someone says things like  " I'd prefer to live here than in the west, but I will not take the moral high ground over Russia, even if they are trying to do so through political maneuvering " this usually comes  from someone who lives in a first world country and doesn't really know any other lifestyle. And I'm not judging you, I love the UK and think you are very fortunate to be a citizen of such a progressive and important country. And the UK is also part of the West for purposes of this discussion  But you being a citizen of a first world country has obviously blinded you in some areas if you think Putins actions in Ukraine shouldn't be criticized. They must and should be condemned because you need to understand why the West is passing sanctions on Russia as this could have an impact on the UK on some level in the future so you should at least understand the motivation behind the sanctions 

 

Also can you stop trying to suggest I am a hypocrite because I say I care about womens rights and also go to strip clubs. I am well aware of your constant attempts to get a reaction from me. You actually tend to repeat this point, using innuendo or course, but you have never bothered to actually ask me if I see the "contradiction ". Also I have always considered this flawed criticism from you  to be really petulant and really should be below you intellectually ...at least until you know my official stance 

 

But since you asked me in a more polite way I will answer you so you don't have to keep repeating yourself in the hope I will respond

 

I am going to assume you don't go to strip clubs or have friends that are strippers or escorts ?. Because if you did you would know your average strip club doesn't need to use girls that are victims of human trafficking. The girls that come into countries like the UK through cartels and smuggling rings don't work legally, they normally don't have access to there  passports and almost all money they make goes to the cartel or there pimp. Its a terrible life and I absolutely reject it 

 

The girls I know who work in the industry are there of there own free will, no one controls them and they do that type of work for money to live on

 

I don't judge them at all and there lifestyle choice is completely different to the seedy world of human enslavement you are referring to 

[BruceVC]

 

Baro where do you live? I always thought the USA but then realized I was wrong 

Australia.

 

Why?

 

 

Interesting, well the main reason being often a  persons views on politics is influenced by where he comes from and where he lives. And you are a bit of an enigma because you support equality (SJ issues)  but seem critical of the West..and I'm not saying these two points are automatically interchangeable but you think you would be less critical of Western historical injustice, like Colonialism, and more complementary to all the benefits and values a person gets with living in a first world country like Australia?

 

But I know we also haven't  gone into great detail about your view on the West but from past discussion it doesn't seem that great ?