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Bazy

Let Druids and Priests Choose Spells

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I know probably way too late for this...

 

But it adds so much to be able to choose which spells you have available rather then have them all thrown at you. Ability selection is a big part of RPGing and replayability.

 

Chanter, Cipher, Wizard all have this well implemented. Druid and Priests have 9 thrown at you every two levels.

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This doesn't really matter here because they get access to all of their spells anyway.

 

What would be nice for Priests in the Expansion is Deity-based spells.

 

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I think what  Bazy meant was for them to not get all their spells at once, and have more like a sorcerer who has to pick the spells he can cast with each level. It's something that I would prefer too, if only for roleplaying reasons, but also so that you have a chance to read over all the spells in a nice list or grid rather than having to hover over little icons.

 

And seeing that people have been saying that the druid is stronger than the other classes, it would also help to limit it just a bit and, dare I say it, balance it a tad more, especially when comparing to the wizard, which has a lot more limitations put on it.

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I'd rather have them get all their spells at once, as it adds to their tactical depth. You can only cast a certain amount per rest, and you have a nice selection to choose from.

 

For me, tactical depth in the gameplay is more important than getting to pick something every level.

Edited by Sensuki

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I'd rather have them get all their spells at once, as it adds to their tactical depth. You can only cast a certain amount per rest, and you have a nice selection to choose from.

 

For me, tactical depth in the gameplay is more important than getting to pick something every level.

 

Agree. They should have all possible spells at once.

However i would add ability to hide the spell from main UI. Its not problem with spells, its maybe visibility problem with too many options for a given level.

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I agree with OP. Old post. Old thread.

I don't think there'd be less tactical depth if you picked spells per level instead of getting them all at once. It'd be a more customized and personal tactical depth (Like with the Wizard, Chanter & Cipher, which are not "less" tactical because you get to pick spells per level).

There'd be way more strategical depth if you got to pick spells per level for the Druid & Priest. In combat (the tactical bit) the Player would use their spell picks to their best ability, and use their Character/Class Build to their own enjoyment.

Whilst I understand the philosopy behind the "Generalist Druid's" versatility, I don't agree with the design. Sure, if all magical Classes would be given all of their Spells at level up then I would understand it. But here we have 3 Magical Classes that get to pick spells, and 2 Magical Classes that get all spells.

I don't feel it.

 

Ideas/opinions/suggestions previously posted.
 

Druid
1- Druid gets to pick spells per level
2- Spiritshift would be better as an Optional Talent (Currently it is a "Must have")

 

Priest
1- Priest gets to pick spells per level
or
2- Priest gets all spells per level, but specific spells from those that Obsidian has already created. Examples.

 

I believe that the "Get all" design decisions for Priest & Druid is more or less a remnant of the Infinity Engine mechanics (or rather, the D&D mechanics, which it originally spawned from). There is no other reason to have it, as I think the "tactical depth" argument is a joke. If there'd be more tactical depth to "Get all" then we'd see more people advocate for Wizard, Chanter & Cipher to get all their spells each level as well.

 

"Monks, Paladins and all the Classes, heck give all classes and characters everything every level they level up".

I haven't seen that argument/advocacy even once in these 2+ years. Customization will always have most depth.

Edited by Osvir
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I think it is good as it is, but I wish druid/priest spells were modified by talents, especially priests by their deity. I love how talents work for paladins and their orders - you have two talents per order modifying core paladin abilities what is nice.

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It's actually a shame there isn't any talents that modify casting - kind of like the metamagic feats in D&D

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+1 Casting Improving/Modifying Talents
+1 Diety Spells

That would be awesome too.

Want to also say that it is probably too late for the Druid & Priest to get any customized picks at this point and I would rather Obsidian spend their time fixing bugs and the game than implement Spell Picks for these classes. Ultimately, I'm fine with "Get All", but I think that "Spell Pick" is way better. These posts of mine are remnants of old discussions and ideas.

 

The main problem for me is that expansions, sequels and similar won't be able to fix it, because if the first installment has "Get all", then we'll see sequels have "Get all". Unless Obsidian creates a specific Class Kit or Sub-Class of the Druid or Priest that gets to pick spells per level.

A whole new Druid-inspired Class would fix it... hmm. Nevermind then, I'll continue to advocate for Druid & Priest spell picks :p

Edited by Osvir

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This question comes in my opinion to class differentiation and balance.

 

There is two top tier archetypes in PoE for spell casters, those who have per rest spells and those who have regenerable resource that they use to cast spells

 

In first category there are three classes; druid, priest and wizard. In second category there are two classes chanter and cipher

 

Wizard class in PoE has largest range of spells which they can get, but they are limited by their grimoire and that they can only select limited number of spells during level up, but they also have ability change grimoire which they use which gives them ability to learn new spell outside leveling, which is ability that any other class in PoE don't have.

 

Priest and Druid classes get all their spells during level up, but their range of spells is more limited than what wizard class. Priest and druid classes are differentiated from each other by their different spell selections and additional abilities.

 

Cipher class uses focus resource, which they get by doing damage, to cast spells which they select during leveling. Chanter class selects chants and invocations during leveling, chants are passive modal abilities that over time increase chanter's chant counter which allows them to use their invocations.

 

So if you would limit number of spells that Priest and Druid classes get during level up without making their spells more powerful you would make them weaker compared to other spell casting classes, as they don't have grimoire mechanic like wizards which would give them ability to have access to wider range of spells and they don't have similar abilities to get spell casting resources back like Cipher and Chanter classes. Although there is of course option to give Druid and Priest classes more per encounter spells instead of per rest, but even then their spell selections would need changes as some of their spells are too situational to pick over more generic de/buff or damage spells.

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Priest and Druid classes get all their spells during level up, but their range of spells is more limited than what wizard class. Priest and druid classes are differentiated from each other by their different spell selections and additional abilities.

 

2:07-3:35:

 

The Sword is "Get all", and Jeanne D'Arc, the Priest. I'd be the vision or hallucination, the one questioning this design (:p), the Priest gets a massive hand-out, each different Diety simply... gives all spells. I find it narratively flat. "Your devotion to this Class pick, gives you the ability to cast all spells, no matter which Diety you picked. Have fun yo!".

Again, here's a Priest solution that I think could be done before release if Obsidian gets some extra time, giving different Dieties differing Spell Gains per level (Still "Get all" but at different rates depending on Diety).

 

Priests & Druid wouldn't be less differentiated by allowing them to pick spells either.

 

So if you would limit number of spells that Priest and Druid classes get during level up without making their spells more powerful you would make them weaker compared to other spell casting classes, as they don't have grimoire mechanic like wizards which would give them ability to have access to wider range of spells and they don't have similar abilities to get spell casting resources back like Cipher and Chanter classes. Although there is of course option to give Druid and Priest classes more per encounter spells instead of per rest, but even then their spell selections would need changes as some of their spells are too situational to pick over more generic de/buff or damage spells.

 

Building a Blue Wizard (illusion and debuffing spells) isn't a good build either, but PoE allows me to build such a Wizard. It doesn't allow me to build, or attempt to build, a self-buffing melee Spiritshifter. It allows me to use a Generalist Druid and then never use him for anything other than Spiritshifting and self-buffing. He'll still be a Generalist Druid.

More spells would have to be per encounter as you say as well.

Edited by Osvir

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Well technically you're incorrect there as you'll find lots of Wizard spells throughout the game, and have access to many. If you choose to have illusion and debuffing spells in your Grimoire more often than not - that's your choice, and you're not limited to that choice and you can change your spells to all Fire related spells if you want.

 

It's exactly the same with what Druid spells you select to cast. Just because you can see them all in the UI, doesn't mean that you have to use them.

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So if you would limit number of spells that Priest and Druid classes get during level up without making their spells more powerful you would make them weaker compared to other spell casting classes, as they don't have grimoire mechanic like wizards which would give them ability to have access to wider range of spells and they don't have similar abilities to get spell casting resources back like Cipher and Chanter classes. Although there is of course option to give Druid and Priest classes more per encounter spells instead of per rest, but even then their spell selections would need changes as some of their spells are too situational to pick over more generic de/buff or damage spells.

Building a Blue Wizard (illusion and debuffing spells) isn't a good build either, but PoE allows me to build such a Wizard. It doesn't allow me to build, or attempt to build, a self-buffing melee Spiritshifter. It allows me to use a Generalist Druid and then never use him for anything other than Spiritshifting and self-buffing. He'll still be a Generalist Druid.

 

 

Wizards are able to get all their spells during the game by learning them from scrolls and using other grimoires, in my understanding there is even such spells that they can't get during level up. So building specialist wizards is more like playing druid that don't use certain spells in their repertory. 

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Idea for expansion that could work as some sort spell selection method is to give priest and druid classes modal abilities that limit which spells they are able to cast but buff those spells that they are able to cast, which would give more variations how those classes play and how one builds them and I do think that it could fit with lore of the world and not being too difficult to implement and balance.

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Idea for expansion that could work as some sort spell selection method is to give priest and druid classes modal abilities that limit which spells they are able to cast but buff those spells that they are able to cast, which would give more variations how those classes play and how one builds them and I do think that it could fit with lore of the world and not being too difficult to implement and balance.

That sounds actually... pretty darn good. But would they have to be in that Modal to be able to cast Spells? o.o I don't think that's too bad either.... "Prayer Modals".

 

Tactically: You'd switch Modals between, Supportive, Aggressive or Defensive. In Supportive Modal you'd be able to heal, but can't cast offensive spells. Huh, not too bad in my opinion, not too bad at all.

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So if you would limit number of spells that Priest and Druid classes get during level up without making their spells more powerful you would make them weaker compared to other spell casting classes, as they don't have grimoire mechanic like wizards which would give them ability to have access to wider range of spells and they don't have similar abilities to get spell casting resources back like Cipher and Chanter classes. Although there is of course option to give Druid and Priest classes more per encounter spells instead of per rest, but even then their spell selections would need changes as some of their spells are too situational to pick over more generic de/buff or damage spells.

Building a Blue Wizard (illusion and debuffing spells) isn't a good build either, but PoE allows me to build such a Wizard. It doesn't allow me to build, or attempt to build, a self-buffing melee Spiritshifter. It allows me to use a Generalist Druid and then never use him for anything other than Spiritshifting and self-buffing. He'll still be a Generalist Druid.

 

 

Wizards are able to get all their spells during the game by learning them from scrolls and using other grimoires, in my understanding there is even such spells that they can't get during level up. So building specialist wizards is more like playing druid that don't use certain spells in their repertory. 

That is not taking into consideration:

- Do you find all Scrolls?

- Do you do all Quests?

- Do you have more than 1 Wizard?

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Well technically you're incorrect there as you'll find lots of Wizard spells throughout the game, and have access to many. If you choose to have illusion and debuffing spells in your Grimoire more often than not - that's your choice, and you're not limited to that choice and you can change your spells to all Fire related spells if you want.

 

It's exactly the same with what Druid spells you select to cast. Just because you can see them all in the UI, doesn't mean that you have to use them.

 

Yes! Wizard, Chanter & Cipher inherently ALLOWS & ENABLES choices. I don't even need to put all Fire-related spells I find into a Single Wizards Grimoire, but I can have many Wizards, one who has only Fire-related spells, one who has only Illusion-related spells, one who has only Self-Cast, one who has only Cold-Related spells etc.

 

Both Priest & Druid have Zero choice, it is DISABLED, in comparison (Regarding Spell Picks).

Edited by Osvir

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No. You're completely missing the point.

By the end of the game, there's a fair chance you will have every Wizard spell in your Grimoire(s) or at least close to. You can cast any of these if you wish.

The difference is that the Wizard requires a spell be stored in a book. The Druid knows all of their spells anyway.

Limiting the Druid spell list and making them less tactically viable is a terrible reason just to add a 'choice' to leveling up. They were designed to be this way.

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And I disagree, because I don't believe it'd be any less tactically viable (because, partially, 6 party members, and tactics is personal. You and me both will tactically overcome the same encounter differently, with or without Spell Picks).

Additionally: Why wouldn't the Druid be able to be built into a Generalist Druid just like the Wizard can be built into a Generalist Wizard? (by the end of the game).

Edited by Osvir

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You can make specialized casters by choosing certain talents that augment various types of spells. However it would be nice if there were more of them.

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The thing about choosing spells as often there are a group of no-brainer, all-around useful spells and the more situational spells just don't end up getting used at all. Having access to all of them gives you more versatility, as well as letting you tinker with different strategies than you might otherwise never bother with.

 

I can understand wanting a more personalized selection though. I think getting some buffed versions of your favorites would be interesting. Like 1-2 spells per tier have higher accuracy, damage, radius, duration or faster cast or whatever. Would feel more personalized than general meta-magic styled talents, plus I feel talent starved on most classes already.

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Druids and Priests have far too many tactical options.

 

At level 12 Priest and Druid will have 50+ abilities to choose from. It doesn't even feel like a class at that point. And removes tactics because they pretty much do everything. 

 

And because they have become such powerful casters... spiritshift is complete trash... again. 

Edited by Bazy

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The thing about choosing spells as often there are a group of no-brainer, all-around useful spells and the more situational spells just don't end up getting used at all. Having access to all of them gives you more versatility, as well as letting you tinker with different strategies than you might otherwise never bother with.

You can make the same argument about wizard, chanter and cipher. I don't feel the need to "tinker" to be a very good justification. Tinkering should come from a new game and creating a different playstyle. 

 

An RPG is supposed to be about tradeoffs and meaningful choices. A better way to add spells is to give the player the option to have more spells available for a tradeoff somewhere else. (Ie talents)

 

Ideally you would be able to create a druid with 50 spells or 0 spells. Depending on how you want to build them. Right now there is no choice. All druids just stand in the back and cast spells. 

Edited by Bazy

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The thing about choosing spells as often there are a group of no-brainer, all-around useful spells and the more situational spells just don't end up getting used at all. Having access to all of them gives you more versatility, as well as letting you tinker with different strategies than you might otherwise never bother with.

You can make the same argument about wizard, chanter and cipher. I don't feel the need to "tinker" to be a very good justification. Tinkering should come from a new game and creating a different playstyle. 

 

An RPG is supposed to be about tradeoffs and meaningful choices. A better way to add spells is to give the player the option to have more spells available for a tradeoff somewhere else. (Ie talents)

 

Ideally you would be able to create a druid with 50 spells or 0 spells. Depending on how you want to build them. Right now there is no choice. All druids just stand in the back and cast spells. 

 

 

Wizard can change around Grimoire pretty much whenever, so you can tinker - although you don't have the full arsenal available every battle admittedly.

 

Chanter and Cipher are more limited, true, but they've got a different, more hybrid feel to them, having to build up to their spells rather than playing like pure casters. Versatility seems like an intended strength of the other casters.

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