Reorganization and the Wizard class

[Odd Hermit]

Currently I look at this class and this is what I see -

 

 

A grimoire that suggests this is NOT a melee-comfortable class. They are fighting with a book in one hand. A core aspect of the class that by descriptions so far suggests wizards are the dude you want hiding behind everyone else.

 

Yet...many spells requiring the wizard, the most fragile class in the game, to be at close or even melee ranges relative to target. This was made worse with +range being removed from attributes.

 

Many self-buffs that I'm never going to waste time casting because cost/time : benefit ratio is just not favorable. We don't get the DnD situation that made these sort of spells viable, with very long durations so we could meander about glowing from a pile of pre-buffs.

 

Lackluster class-specific talents that add minor abilities rather than enhancing and creating synergies with what's already there. Arcane Veil and Grimoire Slam are pretty weak-sauce if you ask me, anyway, for example.

 

 

So... what could be done about the situation that might be feasible before release date? I recommended some spells becoming passive buffs in a previous thread but that's a tiny bandaid on its own probably.

 

 

[Lillyhime]

I mostly agree, while normally I wouldn't mind the "touch" based spells, I don't plan on being a melee mage type in this game. (cause why use a sword when I can have a pistol <3) 

Buffs don't quiet last long enough or cast fast enough for me to want to use them. I'm not sure how I'd like the spells to be fixed though.

 

I understand that Wizards are suppose to be more like "BOOM" and "FIREY DEATH" then CC, but level 2 of the spells for instance doesn't have many damaging spells I'd like to take. I like to go with themes for what sort of spells someone would know, and level 2 has some fire, and corrosive damage but no shock or freeze, which is okay I guess? There just isn't any spell like particularly like in level 2.

 

I do like the idea of getting more grimoire related skills in general though, especially some more damaging non-melee ones. Maybe a burst like ability that pushes things away from the caster or something.

[Sensuki]

I'd like the Jolting Touch spell to be changed back to a ranged spell like it was in v333 or whatever.

I agree about being required to be too close for a lot of the spells, and the way in which you have to aim cones/rays is a bit annoying too.

 

The gameplay in this game isn't really that similar to the IE games IMO, and a lot of the D&D style Wizard spells just aren't required.

 

I never cast anything that isn't a damage spell or a Crowd Control spell as a Wizard in this game. I use Arcane Veil, because it doesn't take up a spell slot.

 

Stuff like spell range used to be pretty simple to mod out, but Bester's Unity Editor no longer works with v435, as they moved to Unity 4.6.1

Bester's Editor was for Unity 4.5

Edited February 6, 2015 by Sensuki

[DigitalCrack]

Lackluster class-specific talents that add minor abilities rather than enhancing and creating synergies with what's already there. Arcane Veil and Grimoire Slam are pretty weak-sauce if you ask me, anyway, for example.

I like the idea of Grimoire specific skills and they could be a really cool and unique aspect to the class but currently most of them are too weak to be useful. 

[Odd Hermit]

I'd like the Jolting Touch spell to be changed back to a ranged spell like it was in v333 or whatever.

 

I agree about being required to be too close for a lot of the spells, and the way in which you have to aim cones/rays is a bit annoying too.

 

The gameplay in this game isn't really that similar to the IE games IMO, and a lot of the D&D style Wizard spells just aren't required.

 

I never cast anything that isn't a damage spell or a Crowd Control spell as a Wizard in this game. I use Arcane Veil, because it doesn't take up a spell slot.

 

Stuff like spell range used to be pretty simple to mod out, but Bester's Unity Editor no longer works with v435, as they moved to Unity 4.6.1

 

Bester's Editor was for Unity 4.5

 

I used Arcane Veil just because it was on the BB wizard and might as well, but I wouldn't pick it for a wizard I built myself. When my wizard was in trouble I just had my priest save has arse instead. Usually I managed to keep him out of the fray though, once I'd got the right grimoire configuration to avoid any spells that are just too close range for comfort.

 

I ended up playing Wizard similarly - mainly stuck to ranged damage and CC, rarely used any cones or self-buffs. Occasionally I used Eldritch Aim when I was just going to be blasting trash down with an implement but that was about it.

 

I tried to play some different Wizard builds with a PC wizard including a gish, but there was just no way I could make it work in a way that didn't feel like I was adapting my whole party to babysit my wizard. You don't have the time to buff a wizard into a non-liability for melee. Plus monk or chanter have strong conal AoEs and just do the job way better without requiring buffing themselves with multiple spells.

 

The class was mostly defined by a single spell when I really think back on things, and that was slicken. If it weren't for slicken I'd have no place for one in a party.

[BrainMuncher]

I'm only going by what's on the wiki so it might be inaccurate, but the general idea seems to hold that the spells with inconvenient targeting have stronger effects. Level 1 Fan of Flames does more damage than the level 3 fireball. Sunless Grasp does more damage than Minor Missiles, especially after you take DT into account, and it also applies a hefty accuracy debuff.

 

You're not the first person to complain about wizards but I still just don't get what it is you and others think is wrong. Why were you expecting to be able to have an effective low-level melee wizard? This was never a thing in the IE games. Neither were long duration buffs, casting Cat's Grace on yourself would be a complete waste at level 5 when you could Horror or Stinking Cloud instead.

 

At least on paper, those self buffs seem strong enough. Hardened Veil is a pretty decent deflection bonus, and stacking it with other things like the daze from Arcane Assault, Sunless Grasp accuracy penalty, or Spirit Shield/Mirrored Image should allow you to deal with an ambush or stray attacker well enough. Or just Grimoire Slam, run away and let someone else deal with it. I don't think these things are supposed to turn you into a tank, just there to be useful situationally when they are needed.

 

Eldritch Aim looks to have amazing potential, I wish I had this in the IE games - imagine casting this to add +10 save DC to your Symbol:Stun or Wail of the Banshee. I think I'll be comboing the hell out of this spell. Eldritch Aim, then paralyze everything with Fetid Caress, now your fireball is almost guaranteed to crit and they are sitting ducks for your party's attackers. Using it just boost a few wand attacks seems like a complete waste.

[Sensuki]

The problem is, in application, that buffing yourself as a Wizard is not useful, because ... why? Often you can avoid being targeted in 95% of the encounters, you don't need to buff yourself if you're not getting targeted.

What's more, buffing yourself is not doing anything to kill enemies, and while you're buffing yourself, they are attacking your party members. It's almost always far more effective to spend your actions casting damage spells or crowd control spells.

My first two actions as a Wizard are usually almost always double spamming Arcane Assault, otherwise it would be casting Slicken or something.

 

Eldritch Aim is good though.

 

 

 

I used Arcane Veil just because it was on the BB wizard and might as well, but I wouldn't pick it for a wizard I built myself.

 

Same. I would pick Blast, Penetrating Blast, maybe Weapon Focus and/or Bonus Spells.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Sensuki

[Odd Hermit]

I'm only going by what's on the wiki so it might be inaccurate, but the general idea seems to hold that the spells with inconvenient targeting have stronger effects. Level 1 Fan of Flames does more damage than the level 3 fireball. Sunless Grasp does more damage than Minor Missiles, especially after you take DT into account, and it also applies a hefty accuracy debuff.

 

You're not the first person to complain about wizards but I still just don't get what it is you and others think is wrong. Why were you expecting to be able to have an effective low-level melee wizard? This was never a thing in the IE games. Neither were long duration buffs, casting Cat's Grace on yourself would be a complete waste at level 5 when you could Horror or Stinking Cloud instead.

 

At least on paper, those self buffs seem strong enough. Hardened Veil is a pretty decent deflection bonus, and stacking it with other things like the daze from Arcane Assault, Sunless Grasp accuracy penalty, or Spirit Shield/Mirrored Image should allow you to deal with an ambush or stray attacker well enough. Or just Grimoire Slam, run away and let someone else deal with it. I don't think these things are supposed to turn you into a tank, just there to be useful situationally when they are needed.

 

Eldritch Aim looks to have amazing potential, I wish I had this in the IE games - imagine casting this to add +10 save DC to your Symbol:Stun or Wail of the Banshee. I think I'll be comboing the hell out of this spell. Eldritch Aim, then paralyze everything with Fetid Caress, now your fireball is almost guaranteed to crit and they are sitting ducks for your party's attackers. Using it just boost a few wand attacks seems like a complete waste.

 

 

Thing about IWD and BGII is that your wizard didn't have to start out as a crappy wizard. You could multi or dual class and be very powerful as a melee/caster. Dual class was probably a bit broken, as was the kensai/mage combo in particular but still.

 

And long duration buff spells were fairly good on such builds. My fighter/wizard builds were the most versatile and durable character sans a high level cleric/wizard in BGII due to the craziness of cleric spells on spell contingencies. Even at lower levels a fighter/wizard using armor, cat's grace, mirror image is pretty decent. Then at level 3 and 4 spells you take off when you've got haste and improved invisibility and stoneskin and so on.

 

Regardless pure wizards in general in IE games sucked at low levels, but PoE is a different game where wizards can't multiclass, don't have to suck at low levels, and shouldn't become as insanely powerful at high levels.

 

I don't need wizards in PoE to be melee characters, I just want them to be suited for being a ranged/caster if they're not going to be good at melee. The problem is that too many of their spells don't fit that type of wizard so it ends up feeling like a bland class. If I go through and count the spells I used there's not much variety per spell level because of how many are duds and/or require me to position my wizard where I don't want him to be, or are simply unnecessary self buffs that just amount to a waste of time to cast for reasons Sensuki just gave.

 

Anyway, power-wise wizards in PoE are still "alright" but they're held up by only a few spells out of many, and just aren't as interesting to play as they should be.

 

 

 

As for Eldritch Aim, I haven't found a big need for buffing accuracy for spells which already have accuracy bonuses. I land most of my CCs.

 

It has application and potential but at the lower levels of the BB you don't have any spectacular spells to buff that really needs buffing with eldritch aim. It's nice for getting higher damage maybe, but I didn't use wizard as much for spell damage other than a fireball here and there - mostly I used wizard for CC and let my druid nuke things. Although since they've tweaked/nerfed accuracy across the board, perhaps it's a bigger deal now.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[aeonsim]

With careful positioning the cone spells are very useful and well worth it, especially with engagement once the front line has settled down you can move up exceedingly close and use them to good effect.

 

Eldritch aim is useful not just for increasing damage, but also for increasing the chance and duration of the crowd control effects. Getting a Crit with a CC will increase it's duration by 50% and combines nicely with the bonus from Intellect. It's also really useful for making sure the spell hits the boss monsters.

 

I agree for the most part about the buff spells though about the only one I use is Mirror image, as it works much the same as the IE one and gives you a chance to get several more useful spells off while they're trying to hit the images.