I have a bad feeling about KOTOR 2.....

[Ivan the Terrible]

"ask 100 folks who the best character in ps:t was. will see morte and annah and tno and the transcendent one get mentioned... you will even see votes for fall from grace, and she is one of those unfinished and half-baked characters that we was mighty disappointed with. far down the list you may see ravel mentioned. even so, ravel is the one ps:t character we would stack up 'gainst jolee."

 

And Jolee is the one KOTOR who could stack up against any one of the solid PS:T characters. I was impressed with Jolee, but his associates are 'Waahh! The Sith killed my family!' Carth and 'Waaah! The Jedi took me from my daddy!' Bastila.

 

Put simply, if you put the whole set of Torment NPCs against the whole set of KOTOR NPCs, the Torment NPCs would win a decisive victory in regards to interesting backstory and....well, non-annoyance.

 

"korriban were also better developed and better written than a number of areas in ps:t."

 

If you put the strongest areas in KOTOR up against the weakest areas in PS:T, then sure, you're bound to find KOTOR winning. Nevertheless, if you put the strongest areas of PS:T up against the strongest areas of KOTOR, KOTOR loses hands down.

 

"furthermore, as much as chris a was clearly the lead writer and soul of ps:t, he didn't write ps:t all by his lonesome. hell, many of the really good ideas for ps:t was characters, place and situations lifted from underused planescape supplements."

 

Yes, I should be more fair and say 'The KOTOR writing team, as a whole, has nothin' on the Torment writing team.'

 

Since you were characterizing Torment as Chris Avellone's baby, I was putting him in competition with the most recognizable writer of the Bioware team, as individuals representative of their respective projects. I don't mean to suggest that both of these writers dominated those projects.

[Sorwen]

I used Plancescape when milk will not help me go to sleep.

[Ivan the Terrible]

Man. I like Chris Avellone too; but hisa writing skills are sooo overrated. HGe is not some writing God. IWD2 proves this. And, besides, like Grom mentioned, he did NOT write any of the BIS games solo. Jeez. And, giving Dave G all (or most of ) the credit (or engative press) for KOTOR's writing (or other BIO games) is just plain silly since, he like Avellone, did not write the games solo.

 

Geez.. Theya re not Shakespeare, King, or some other fancy writer whow rite their books solo. Silly gooses.

Actually, I've never played IWD2, but I'd say Fallout 2 does a good job of showing Herr Avellone's mortal failings. The whole game is one gigantic freaking pop culture reference, which gets stale quick.

 

In his defense, though, New Reno is the best area of the game.

 

And like I said above, I should be more fair; I used Avellone and Gaider as the representatives of their projects because they're the most recognizable names and because Gromnir characterized Torment as Chris Avellone's baby, but that's a disservice to the rest of the writers for both games.

[Meshugger]

I never tried Planescape: Torment, but from what i've read here, it's seems to be the holy grail in terms of rpg. But how's the gameplay? Is it isometric like Diablo? What made it so great?

[Ivan the Terrible]

The writing in Torment was much better than the writing in KOTOR,

 

I totally disagree. I couldn't even finish Torment where I've complete KoToR twice(started a lot more times). KoToR is the only game I've complete in a long time. Usually I get to a point where I'm bored and I know it is only a matter of sitting there long enough and I'll complete the game. That is about the time I quit and never touch the game again. It was KoToR's story that had me wanting to finish the game. For me if this game lives up to nothing else it has to live up to the story of KoToR. Heck KoToR has had a better story than the last two SW movies.

 

While I find this teams work good they lack something that Bioware seems to have. I can't really say what it is, but it has been just missing in all their games. I bought Fallout 1&2(only completed 1), Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape. I got bored on all except Fallout and only completed because I was bored. They start great concepts, but they just can't follow through with the game/story. I have to say while KoToR2 sounds good(like the others did) I really have my doubts. They don't suck, they just don't live up to their potential.

I think this is a case of 'to each his own.'

 

You thought Torment was boring; I thought it was fantastic. Really, what else can be said?

[Ivan the Terrible]

I never tried Planescape: Torment, but from what i've read here, it's seems to be the holy grail in terms of rpg. But how's the gameplay? Is it isometric like Diablo? What made it so great?

Ok, first I should warn you: when people like me praise Torment, we aren't praising it's combat system or whatever, 'cause Gromnir is right about that; it isn't very good. In fact, it sucks; since you're immortal (long story, but suffice it to say when you get killed you come right back to life just a short distance away), you can essentially kill a Demigod with a rusty fork if you're patient enough. We're mostly praising it's storyline, it's characters, it's setting, etc.

 

Meaning, if you want great graphics, flashy combat, etc., you'll be disappointed. If you want a great story with excellent writing and many great characters, you'll probably like it.

 

But if you've played Baldur's Gate or Baldur's Gate II, it uses the same engine. That's how it looks.

 

Torment is not for everyone, but if you don't mind a lot of reading in-game, give it a shot.

[Darque]

Exactly PS:T's strengths were it's story and it's characterization.

[Drakron]

Thats is not true, there are ways to get killed in PS:T ... just piss off the Lady of Pain twice and you get Her Shadow (even if you sould piss her off once to get mazed).

[Ivan the Terrible]

Thats is not true, there are ways to get killed in PS:T ... just piss off the Lady of Pain twice and you get Her Shadow (even if you sould piss her off once to get mazed).

Yes, I know; the Master of Bones can kill you, too.

 

Nonetheless, those moments are few and far between and none involve combat.

[Drakron]

Yep, just pissing off very powerful creatures.

[Meshugger]

I never tried Planescape: Torment, but from what i've read here, it's seems to be the holy grail in terms of rpg. But how's the gameplay? Is it isometric like Diablo? What made it so great?

Ok, first I should warn you: when people like me praise Torment, we aren't praising it's combat system or whatever, 'cause Gromnir is right about that; it isn't very good. In fact, it sucks; since you're immortal (long story, but suffice it to say when you get killed you come right back to life just a short distance away), you can essentially kill a Demigod with a rusty fork if you're patient enough. We're mostly praising it's storyline, it's characters, it's setting, etc.

 

Meaning, if you want great graphics, flashy combat, etc., you'll be disappointed. If you want a great story with excellent writing and many great characters, you'll probably like it.

 

But if you've played Baldur's Gate or Baldur's Gate II, it uses the same engine. That's how it looks.

 

Torment is not for everyone, but if you don't mind a lot of reading in-game, give it a shot.

I am by no means a gfx-whore so that shouldn't be a problem, but after i tried Diablo 1 back in the day, it felt very unconvincing. More or less like LOTR, minus the story. That's why i didn't try one single rpg before KotOR, since the immersion was next to none. Maybe if i find it for a low price somewhere i might it out. It was the story and the characters that got into KotOR afterall

[Ivan the Terrible]

I am by no means a gfx-whore so that shouldn't be a problem, but after i tried Diablo 1 back in the day, it felt very unconvincing. More or less like LOTR, minus the story. That's why i didn't try one single rpg before KotOR, since the immersion was next to none. Maybe if i find it for a low price somewhere i might it out. It was the story and the characters that got into KotOR afterall

Then by all means, see if you can find a copy. It should be dirt cheap by now, and if ever there was a game worth a risk, this is it.

[Darque]

You can probably find it on ebay for about 10 bucks... if not less.

[Volourn]

Ivan: Huh? If anything, FO2 illustratres Avellone' strengths. That game is awesome. Who cares about all the references. there wer e lots in FO1 too. Big whoop. Besdies, New Reno is the best, if not one of the best, towns/urban centers in anyc rpg. Period.

 

As for Avellone vs. gaider. It's silly. Even if one was to give Avellone credit for PST; Gaider doesn't have the handle of it as Avellone. He's just one of a team at Bioware. Just a cog of the machine responsible for certain aspects of Bioware's games.

 

Example: SOU ch1, and Deekin are his.

 

He's nowhere near responsible for the big picture of Bioware's games' stories from what I've seen so if one was to take Avellone = PST; it's not really a valid comaprision unless you comapring th stuff Gaider actually worked on.

[StillLife]

And so it begins.

 

And I'll just go on record and state that after FO2 and PS:T, I wanted to have Chris Avellones nameless ones.

 

Of course, one person from a development team is only responsible for so much. It's the whole that matters. Obsidian is still a different company, and may have a completely different approach to RPGs than BIS did. People need to keep that in mind.

[Ivan the Terrible]

Ivan: Huh? If anything, FO2 illustratres Avellone' strengths. That game is awesome. Who cares about all the references. there wer e lots in FO1 too. Big whoop. Besdies, New Reno is the best, if not one of the best, towns/urban centers in anyc rpg. Period.

 

As for Avellone vs. gaider. It's silly. Even if one was to give Avellone credit for PST; Gaider doesn't have the handle of it as Avellone. He's just one of a team at Bioware. Just a cog of the machine responsible for certain aspects of Bioware's games.

 

Example: SOU ch1, and Deekin are his.

 

He's nowhere near responsible for the big picture of Bioware's games' stories from what I've seen so if one was to take Avellone = PST; it's not really a valid comaprision unless you comapring th stuff Gaider actually worked on.

Fallout 2 was good, in a lot of ways....but it was also a disappointment. I like to get involved in the storyline of an RPG, and yet over and over again they jerked you right out of the suspension of disbelief by making Monica Lewinski and Dan Quayle jokes, or by having you openly identify yourself as 'the hero of this game.' Funny? Yes, a lot of times. Distracting? Definetely.

 

Fallout mostly confined it's pop-culture references to either things that made sense in-game or to 'special encounters' that were mostly there for fun. Fallout 2 had them from top to bottom, left to right, all over the place until by the end I was sick to death of them.

 

And I already clarified that I was simply using the two most visible writers of those respective projects as their representatives (since both actively involve themselves in the community), and already pointed out that it was unfair of me. What else do you want me to say?

[Volourn]

Stop asking for forgiveness for starters. Move on. No ahrm done. Enjoy life.

[Ivan the Terrible]

Stop asking for forgiveness for starters. Move on. No ahrm done. Enjoy life.

Heh. Well, wasn't really asking for forgiveness so much as making it clear I retracted what I said before.

 

But, as for the moving on and enjoying life part, it's a deal.

[Volourn]

[nightcleaver]

The writing in Torment was much better than the writing in KOTOR,

 

I totally disagree. I couldn't even finish Torment where I've complete KoToR twice(started a lot more times). KoToR is the only game I've complete in a long time. Usually I get to a point where I'm bored and I know it is only a matter of sitting there long enough and I'll complete the game. That is about the time I quit and never touch the game again. It was KoToR's story that had me wanting to finish the game. For me if this game lives up to nothing else it has to live up to the story of KoToR. Heck KoToR has had a better story than the last two SW movies.

 

While I find this teams work good they lack something that Bioware seems to have. I can't really say what it is, but it has been just missing in all their games. I bought Fallout 1&2(only completed 1), Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape. I got bored on all except Fallout and only completed because I was bored. They start great concepts, but they just can't follow through with the game/story. I have to say while KoToR2 sounds good(like the others did) I really have my doubts. They don't suck, they just don't live up to their potential.

Are you talking about their WRITING or their STORY? The two are very different things. Or do you have no idea? I understand that people dislike how vague and surreal torment is, find the dark themes boring even, but that's the story... not the writing.

Technically, KOTOR didn't have the room to be as good in writing as PS: T, because KOTOR didn't have the descriptions of the latter game. The only writing was dialogue or direction for a quest. As well, KOTOR was a much shorter game, and the characters overall were thusly left more incomplete than in PS: T. The writing of the two games was fundamentally different. The writing in KOTOR never gave me chills, nor did it really make anything visualize clearer than the graphics could represent. Maybe you didn't intend it that way, to attack their writing, but in that case,

 

Here's what sounded wrong: You mention potential. They can't follow through. They lack something Bioware seems to have. You're acting like you're judging their work, where, from the vague descriptions you give, you seem only to be giving your personal response.

 

So please, if you meant no offense, be more clear. I'm sure that if you somewhat intended that, you did it to defend your perspective, but I'm sure no one here would really be bothered by it.

[Gromnir]

"And Jolee is the one KOTOR who could stack up against any one of the solid PS:T characters. I was impressed with Jolee, but his associates are 'Waahh! The Sith killed my family!' Carth and 'Waaah! The Jedi took me from my daddy!' Bastila."

 

and for better or worse, hk-47 has made just 'bout every magazine's best npc award. bastilla coulda' been better. she never really whinned 'bout her daddy as you suggest, but she was decidedly unlikable. even so, we would take canderous over vaihlor, and if not for sheena easton doing annah's voice, we wouldn't put her much before the god awful writing and character development we seen from fall from grace. yeah, we all get that ffg is the "mystery that is woman" character, but that ain't no excuse for failing to develop at all. taken as a whole, the joinable npcs in kotor stacks up pretty darn well 'gainst ps:t.

 

and we wasn't comparing korriban to just a few lame ps:t parts... was pretty much everything after you leave sigil... and a few things from before.

 

*shrug*

 

ps:t, much like fo, benefits much from a cult following that sees things through the foggy lens o' nostalgia.

 

example:

 

"Technically, KOTOR didn't have the room to be as good in writing as PS: T, because KOTOR didn't have the descriptions of the latter game. The only writing was dialogue or direction for a quest. "

 

most of ps:ts descriptions came via dialogue options... was not great sections of narration for most part. and using more words rarely equates as being better writing. hemingway's "a clean, well-lighted place" is only a few pages long, and he cut out any extraneous descriptive language. was a true minimalist 'fore the movement became popular. am not thinking that ps:t or kotor is in same class as hemingway's story of something like 1,500 words.

 

kotor was not quite as self-indulgent as ps:t... was not forced to listen to cliff's notes for dummies versions of basic philosophical concepts like those spouted by coaxmetal and the transcendent one. ps:t was at its best when it skipped the florid prose and remedial philosophy and when it told simple human stories. ask eldar what he likes best from ps:t. he likes the tiefling storyteller from the brothel, and her simple stories... delivered as dialogue. and what did Gromnir likes best? morte after you encounter the pillar of skulls and the mebbeth/ei-vene/marta/ravel encounter once you return from curst is examples of when ps:t was very, very good... 'cause chris a and the other writers was taking completely unbelievable characters and making 'em more human than any crpg characters we ever met. sure as hell weren

[Cantousent]

...But the fact is you do rate PS:T as superior in the writing contest. Now it just comes down to the details, seen from the perspective of several years for PS:T and a bare year for KotOR, that might explain why you find the writing superior for PS:T. Since, by your own admission, you prefer the writing in PS:T, you have probably spent at least some time considering why you prefer it. At the very least, you had to consider such things to make your post. I believe, however, that you've spent some amount of time considering this question.

 

I don't think it matters. Clearly, both PS:T and KotOR are well designed. I'm not trying to be diplomatic. I firmly believe this. If I had to choose one over the other, it would definitely be PS:T. That's irrelevant. Both served as great entertainment. I can't put my finger exactly on why I like both games as much as I do. I can only hope that whatever mojo MCA has will work it's way into KotOR 2.

 

To me, it's far more useful to discuss why KotOR was a commercial success while PS:T was not. That's a matter for a huge discussion, I'm afraid, and I doubt this thread is the best place for it.

[Cantousent]

To be fair, however, I agree whole heartedly about the story teller. That's dead on. In fact, I thought (don't kill me for this) that PS:T could have used less text. It was the single biggest complaint and, like a lot of good writing, all it need was someone to take an axe and carve out some of the excess weight.

[Volourn]

Yup. That was the PST's biggest weakness as far the writing was concerned. People brag about the amount of text. however, what they forget you probably could have cut a good protion of that and the point would have been just as clear, and it would flowed much better.

[Ivan the Terrible]

and for better or worse, hk-47 has made just 'bout every magazine's best npc award.

Eh. HK-47 was entertaining, but he was pretty much as one note as you can get. Make no mistake, it was a funny one note....but one note nonetheless. An interesting contrast with Torment's comic relief Morte, who really wasn't all that funny but who was much better developed.

 

As for the 'extraneous' dialogue in PS:T, I don't agree; one of the most distinctive features of PS:T for me was the philisophical atmosphere, even if amateur. Obviously, we're not going to have Emmanuel Kant here, so yes, it was basic stuff....but really, it fits well with the mood of Planescape in general, and sets the game apart from 'here's the bad guys, KILL 'EM!', as is practiced in god only knows how many RPGS......KOTOR included.

 

BTW, I also disagree with your assessment of everything after Sigil; Curst was lame, but I loved the Fortress of Regrets....or at least the confrontation with the fragments of yourself. For me, it was the defining moment of the game....especially since I finally got to see the ol' Practical incarnation get what was coming to him for so long.