Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity

[PrimeJunta]

@Stun, you know why  decided to do that?

 

Because on my first attempt at a BG1 playthrough, I lost every party member I wanted to keep because I didn't complete their personal quests on time. When Nalia reminded me about hers, I beelined for the keep because I did not want that to happen again. Then I got hit by the poisoned guy thing, and had to go back to Athkatla so he wouldn't die on me. Got hit by random encounters with every travel. Then I headed back to de'Arnise keep, and then I lost Aerie. 

 

I had already used all my Cure spells. It is true that I should have had her glug a couple potions, because I did have a quite a few of those. Yes, mistake.

 

As to the encounter itself, I already said I lost it because I was sitting there drooling like an idiot instead of hitting pause. (I don't like auto-pause. It messes with my flow. I want to be the one determining when the game pauses or not.)

 

Also: I tried raising her with Jaheira's Call of the Harpers. Did. Not. Work. 

 

Which is all beside the point. My beef is with the way that particular encounter was set up: with the orogs and the unnamed slaver already in melee with the party. That's lazy.

 

I would not have been annoyed if, say, the orogs had been hiding behind rocks and shot Aerie down. That's a legit ambush setup.

 

I love it by the way that you're such a huge BG2 fan that any criticism of it -- even coming from someone who's having a blast playing the game and says so -- gets your panties all in a twist.

Edited January 9, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[PrimeJunta]

That's a non issue in BG2 and you know it.

 

I know it now because I just Googled the list. I had forgotten it. It's been more than ten years since I last played it, and I remember very well getting bitten by this in IWD because that happend last week.

[Stun]

He's not looking for tips-- he's exploring a game with fresh eyes and a critical mindset.

Correction, he's heaping piles of random absurd judgments on the game based on the point of view of a modern gamer who's using modern gaming mechanics as a benchmark of how all games should be. There's nothing genuine or honest going on here.

 

Which is all beside the point. My beef is with the way that particular encounter was set up: with the orogs and the unnamed slaver already in melee with the party. That's lazy.

No sale. The game lets you walk away from melee range without penalty (ahem, unlike another game around here that shall remain nameless for now) Edited January 9, 2015 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

I just man fight the Umber Hulks in there lol, it's not that hard. You can pull a few of them at a time as well. I think Potion of Mirrored Eyes works too, IIRC.

 

Didn't have a potion of Mirrored Eyes. Nor anything else that counters Confusion. I checked. Easiest way would have been to rest and memorize Chaotic Commands, slap it on Iggy, and solo them (more or less), but I didn't want to.

[PrimeJunta]

Correction, he's heaping piles of random absurd judgments on the game based on the point of view of a modern gamer used to modern game mechanics. There's nothing genuine or honest going on here

 

Screw you, Stun! I am being 100% genuine and honest here. In case you missed it, I am also enjoying the bejeezus out of this, frustrations with stealth, inventory, and some of the maps and all. I'm having way more fun with this than any "modern game" of yours. (Okay, I did get a gigantic kick out of The Witchers, but that was a different kind of kick. Not comparable.) 

 

I might be a little bit extra pointed with my verbiage just to get under your skin, but that's as much troll blood I'm willing to 'fess up to at this point.

[PrimeJunta]

... annnd, time for a rest I think. Flail is assembled (found the forge the servant was blabbing about). Now also got the hammer. Kind of tempting to go after that iron golem and all the XP now, but... hmm. Maybe tomorrow.

[PrimeJunta]

No sale. The game lets you walk away from melee range without penalty (ahem, unlike another game around here that shall remain nameless for now)

 

:sigh:

 

Yes dear. BG2 is perfect in every way. All the encounters, even the random ones with nameless opponents are gems of design and pure gameplay goodness. The writing is positively Shakespearean, and no game before or since can come close to the mechanics. :pat pat: There, happy now?

[Stun]

Yes dear. BG2 is perfect in every way. All the encounters, even the random ones with nameless opponents are gems of design and pure gameplay goodness. The writing is positively Shakespearean, and no game before or since can come close to the mechanics. :pat pat: There, happy now?

It's the stardard I use to judge party-based RPGs, yes.

 

PS, why didn't you just cast cloudkill on the umberhulks? It insta-kills them all.

[PrimeJunta]

Oh, and: somebody here commented on the writing style. My beef with BG2's writing is not that it's not "realistic" or "gritty." It's that it's hackneyed and clumsy. 

 

Terry Pratchett at his best and when he has a good editor slapping him down when needed, writes excellent light-hearted and funny fantasy. He's intelligent, witty, and keeps surprising you. BG2 is... not Terry Pratchett.

 

@Stun: I did cast Cloudkill on the umber hulks. And Web, just in case. Missed one with the AoE. Used up that single-charge Wand of Cloudkill on it, as I didn't have one memorized.

[archangel979]

 

Funny post. First you say Bg1 was not the tutorial and than you say you passed challenges using things you learned from BG1?!

 

Isn't it glorious that Bg2 let you beat challenges in multiple very different ways? Also Bg1 supported it.

 

Will PoE support this?

 

I said "efficiently handle." When they created mage battles, I'd wager BioWare didn't have in mind players standing outside the enemy mage's field of vision, sending one summon at a time to get killed, making the mage waste their powerful offensive spells on sacrifices while their defensive spells slowly wore off, before eventually summoning a Fire Elemental to finish the fight. That was abuse of the AI, not clever design.

 

Who cares about being efficient if you win. And yes, Bioware did also count on that because that was doable in BG1 and I am sure people did do it. Afterall, Bioware turned Imoen into Thief/Mage in BG2 because lots of people did that in BG1 already.

 

It is also not efficient to run straight to fights and hope RNG gods love you and reload if it fails and repeat until it does not fail but they didn't implement hardcore/ironman mode.

Edited January 9, 2015 by archangel979

[Stun]

Also, the Lilarcor puzzle. Other than being completely contrived like most of these things are

True, but that's not fair. That one is a remnant of cut content. It doesn't make sense because they gutted the whole story behind it.

 

Also, hate hate HATE the stealth system. "Hide in shadows failed." Wait. Wait. Wait. Try again. "Hide in shadows failed." Repeat until succeeds. This is why I don't bother scouting until I have a thief with 100% hide in shadows one way or the other, it's just too bleeding tedious.

You'll have the same "problems" with 100% hide in shadows and 100% move silently, junta....until you learn the mechanics. The skill is not a misnomer. It's called Hide in shadows, not: "hide-in-plain-sight-in-broad-daylight-derp". You've got to pay attention to the surrounding environment. If you take advantage of the shadows that certain objects (like bookshelves, porch roofs, rocks and doors) cast, you will succeed and the skill will become useful. Until then, your Thief can enjoy all the backstabbing/scouting goodness of his class by using the bajillions of invisibility potions, spells, scrolls and jewelery that this game tosses at you at almost every turn. Edited January 9, 2015 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

Oh, it actually takes lighting into account? I was not aware of that. I didn't think the engine was smart enough to do so. Cool, I will adjust my playstyle accordingly. Thank you.

 

Consumables don't really cut it for scouting though, you know, as I'd go through them really fast. 

 

...

 

Went back and killed the iron golem. That was unexpectedly easy. My plan was to buff Minsc and Iggy with Haste, Defensive Harmony, and Chant, with an extra Improved Invisibility on Iggy, then pull Mr. Golem to the doorway and clobber him with my shiny new toys, running back to the party for healing if necessary. That turned out to be wild overkill as apparently Mr. Golem can't actually hit through the doorway. Minsc and I ended up dismantling him with complete impunity. Seems he used up all those acid burps earlier too.

 

A bit of an anticlimax, that, actually, but yay, XP, and now I know what I need to do if I meet one in the open (=run screaming and soil my armor).

 

(Or, more accurately, better AC.)

 

I guess that means I'm done with de'Arnise keep, and it's time for bed. 

 

Summary -- I liked the yuan-ti mage encounter; it was exciting to crawl through the place without resting at every turn, and with using potions and other consumables to get out of trouble instead. I really liked it that they put that iron golem there; something that was obviously out of my league, but then put the tools there with which I could beat him anyway, even if the method was a little cheesy. I really really liked the encounter with the charmed captain of the guard and that my magic snapped him out of it. I liked the variety of encounters, and the way they tipped you off all of the three main types of enemy I'd be facing in there. When they brought up the tunneling bug-like things I knew they were gonna be umber hulks, but I didn't want to re-rest to get more spells (still wasn't sure if Nalia's quest counter was running). I liked the "flavor" encounters with the staff; while Nalia is clumsily written, they did at least try to establish her character, which is more than most games do.

 

I didn't like the maps; the constrained corridors plus the pathfinding made going through them feel like I'm herding cats. I didn't like one of the random encounters (the one Stun thinks is absolutely briliant and flawless and not at all lazy). I do not like the inventory system. And I was using stealth wrong (again, thank you Stun, you have just made a major contribution to my enjoyment). And I do not like the party banter. They're repeating the same lines over and over, often at entirely inopportune moments (Nalia complaining about crawling "around here" instead of helping people, when we're tearing through the very damn thing she wanted us to do), and the voice acting is way over the top.

 

Annnd... I am really, REALLY digging the way there are so many ways to do things. Take those umber hulks for example. My solution was a bit brute-force, but I used what I had and it worked. Same thing with that captain of the guard. This is how you should set things up: throw a problem at you, make mechanics that affect things, and let the player loose. This is the same kick I got from the spell battles in the Broken Hand's upper levels: there's not a solution you need to figure out, but many possible solutions, some of which probably even the designers didn't think about.

 

And, 'tis true, "modern games" generally don't do things this way. There are predesigned paths for you to follow, with little scope for creativity. I haven't seen much sign of this in the P:E beta. In fact I can't think of any good example of it from there. I hope there will be some in the full game, because they're the things that make this kind of thing more than the sum of its parts -- however hackneyed, mechanically obscure or clunky, or otherwise flawed those parts may be.

[Stun]

Consumables don't really cut it for scouting though, you know, as I'd go through them really fast.

Pro-tip: Invisibility potions last 12 hours. Or until you perform a real action (like open a chest, or attack someone.)

  

I really really liked the encounter with the charmed captain of the guard and that my magic snapped him out of it.

I'm a munchkin. Instead of charming/dominating him, I usually just kill him. He drops full plate armor (which is rather useful that early in the game), plus 2 fire giant strength potions.

[PrimeJunta]

I'm a munchkin in IWD. In a more open-ended game which has multiple ways to do things, I, um, role-play. I.e. when offered choices, I choose in-character. Iggy the Paladin would not have killed a charmed captain of the guard unless he had no other option, so I looked for one. And it was enormously rewarding that there was. 

 

That makes up for having no choice but to have Jaheira help slaughter those poor caged animals earlier on. It is after a little unreasonable to require that the game accommodates every choice. But it is very cool when it does.

 

(When the choice is "accept quest/do not accept quest" rather than "accept one of A, B, C quests" I usually accept quest, though, role-playing be damned.)

 

Also: BG2 doesn't appear to incentivize munchkinitude all that much. I'm kind of buried in loot as it is. A couple potions more would not have made much difference, although full plate would be very nice. I'm sure there's gonna be something even better later on though.

 

Continuing this tomorrow. And, Stun, seriously, I am having a blast. This is fun in a way that few games manage to be, warts and all.

[archangel979]

Haha. We are going to make a true bg2 fan out of you yet.

 

Later fights where you seem to run into a brick wall but then start experimenting until you find what works are deeply satisfying like no other game.

[Stun]

And he's a Paladin. There's no brick walls that Carsomyr can't smash through.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

Haha. We are going to make a true bg2 fan out of you yet.

 

Maybe. 

 

You'll never get me to admit that the writing isn't terrible though.

[500MetricTonnes]

 

Haha. We are going to make a true bg2 fan out of you yet.

 

Maybe. 

 

You'll never get me to admit that the writing isn't terrible though.

 

Suit yourself. I personally find the writing far more memorable and enjoyable than anything else BioWare put out since then, with the possible exception of KotOR and the first Mass Effect game.

 

 

Note: Gromnir died horribly just seconds after this screenshot was taken due to having six Horrid Wiltings simultaneously directed at him. Chain Contingency for the win!

Edited January 10, 2015 by 500MetricTonnes

[Sensuki]

 

I just man fight the Umber Hulks in there lol, it's not that hard. You can pull a few of them at a time as well. I think Potion of Mirrored Eyes works too, IIRC.

 

Didn't have a potion of Mirrored Eyes. Nor anything else that counters Confusion. I checked. Easiest way would have been to rest and memorize Chaotic Commands, slap it on Iggy, and solo them (more or less), but I didn't want to.

 

 

I don't even do that lol. I just send in one character and let them get confused. Half of the time they are confused they attack the Umber Hulks anyway. Then I come in a bit later with a few more, just have to watch the Umber Hulk aggro though because two characters confused in the same room can get ugly.

 

And, 'tis true, "modern games" generally don't do things this way. There are predesigned paths for you to follow, with little scope for creativity. I haven't seen much sign of this in the P:E beta. In fact I can't think of any good example of it from there. I hope there will be some in the full game, because they're the things that make this kind of thing more than the sum of its parts -- however hackneyed, mechanically obscure or clunky, or otherwise flawed those parts may be.

Kind of strange that the Infinity Engine games have really emergent gameplay especially in the manner of which you can 'solve' encounters, but Josh Sawyer's design style won't really allow for that I don't think.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Sensuki

[Althernai]

Oh, and: somebody here commented on the writing style. My beef with BG2's writing is not that it's not "realistic" or "gritty." It's that it's hackneyed and clumsy.

I'm enjoying your writeup so far, but I disagree with you about the writing. It's true that if you play with the sound off, the text written on the page is not very impressive. However, they did a good job interspersing the voice acting and some of the latter is very good. Furthermore, yes, it's cheesy, but they know they're being cheesy and they enjoy it. It benefits from the same dramatic effect as a cartoonish art style does visually with respect to a photorealistic one: it's much easier to ignore the flaws in something that is deliberately not aiming for perfection. Overall, I think they do a decent job of selling the setting, story and characters.

 

Also, the "writing" in the sense of quest structure is actually better than in most games. Nalia's Keep is one of the less complex examples and even that one has a bunch of ways to do stuff.

 

Some further random comments:

• You think the inventory is bad this early in the game? I'm a hopeless packrat so I manage to fill it up eventually, but not that soon.
• I think Harper's Call failing to bring back Aerie is a bug. Did you click on the corpse or the portrait? I don't remember it ever failing for me, elf or not.
• I loved that Glaicus can be freed and Domination is not the only thing that does it. I killed him the first time through, but on a subsequent playthrough, I wanted to remove his Haste to make it easier so I hit him with Dispel Magic... and he started talking! That was pretty awesome.
• I believe your example of "party banter" is not so much banter as it is the character expressing an opinion regarding your current reputation. Unfortunately, this can sometimes lead to unintentional silliness as you saw with Nalia.

[PrimeJunta]

@Althernai -- The quest design is brilliant, better than anything I can think of other than Fallout 1 and 2. But the writing really is not. Not even compared to later BioWare: KOTOR and Jade Empire were both better-written overall (they 'read' more like competent fanfic than 15-year-old-DM), and while the ME's and DA's are fairly badly-written overall, all of them had some parts that were well-written, even really well-written (Mordin/the Tuchanka arc, the noble dwarf origin story, Varric, Cassandra.)  

 

Some of the voice acting is awesome (Irenicus), some is better than the writing (Minsc), some is brain-scratchingly awful (Aerie). 

 

Interesting if the Harper's Call thing is bugged. I'm pretty sure I clicked on the portrait; I don't even think there was a highlightable corpse to click on, just a pile of inventory. According to AD&D rules though you need Resurrection to bring back an elf so I didn't think it was a bug.

 

As to party banter, barks, whatever, my main beef isn't even that it's inopportune; it's that it's repetitive. Lines that weren't that great to start with do not get better when repeated for the umpteenth time.

[Sensuki]

I really do not mind a lot of the lines - Minsc can say "Cities always teem with evil and decay, let's give it a good shake and SEE WHAT FALLS OUT" as many times as he likes as far as I'm concerned.

 

I didn't like the Noble Dwarf Origin storyline. Didn't like any of them, really. 

 

edit: BUT the Origin stories was a good concept, I just didn't think that any of them were very good, and they were all really short too.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Sensuki

[AndreaColombo]

Cells, umber hulk feeding spot, could probably do something with this but what, hmm,

 

If you had killed the dogs outside the keep, you could've cooked their meat into a stew and put it there. It would have attracted the Umber Hulks, keeping them out of your way.

 

Ugh.... The artstyle of the enhanced edition of BG2 makes my eyes bleed.

 

How so? I really like it!

 

I agree, I really like the IE inventory. That particular version is the BG2:EE one, which is 'better', but doesn't have a nice fullscreen UI

 

Actually there's an option called "Scale User Interface" that does (almost) that.

[Sensuki]

Yeah but it's scaling up 2D assets isn't it ?

[PrimeJunta]

Continuing the Let's Play. I returned to Athkatla, curious to see what the deal with the poisoned man was, to unload my loot from the Keep, and to do Yoshimo's quest. Again, yeah, there's too much content density: the minute I got to Waukeen's Promenade I got accosted by, like, a half-dozen people who all had REALLY URGENT problems they want me to solve. Told everybody yes and will ignore the REALLY URGENT part, doing them whenever I feel up to it.

 

Then I started on Yoshimo's job. Eventually I'm supposed to steal a rather nasty god's priestess's amulet for an even nastier thief. I walk up to her and cast Dominate, expecting to be able to tell her to hand it over. That did not work, although in a perfect game it would have, in a PnP session it would certainly have worked. To pass the time (as it's daytime), I take a quest from the priest of Helm to investigate a cult in the sewers.

 

Man, those are some busy sewers.

 

I get murdered by an unreasonably tough band of adventurers down there -- what's a dragon-killing adventuring band doing in the sewers shaking up passers-by for coin? -- reload, and murder them right back. It was a good fight and one where I had to push to win, but ultimately not all that hard. I got whacked the first time because I honestly did not expect a wizard with Contingency and Finger of Death and what have you.

 

Rather amusingly, one of the band survived my assault and ran away (Horror, I think), and I murdered him later. Some nice loot there. Good encounter, but really out of place IMO. I mean come on, the sewers?

 

Then, still looking for this mystery cult, I stumbled upon Raszius. He's such a good egg that I swapped out Yoshimo for him, and continued exploring. Found a wizard's library (why would a wizard build a library in the sewers? I didn't find any other entrance to that library), nicked a couple of nice spells from him and took a quest to find an imp with a mirror. Did not find him. Instead, I found a rakshasa with some kobolds. (Yeah, man, busy sewers.) Feeling like a really wanted to rest but not having a safe place to do so, I proceeded to the Old Sewers, found an ominous room where a trap caused some ettercaps and shadows to materialize, and beat them up. Also noticed that Yoshimo had all my potions of Health so I had to get a bit creative to keep Jaheira alive; she got poisoned by one of the ettercaps.

 

Now I really need to rest. Out of healing, low on punchy spells, and wrong loadout for what I'm pretty sure is waiting for me with that cult... that much I remember from over ten years ago, although so far the game's only been dropping extremely oblique hints. I think I'll just abuse the system and reload until I'm able.

 

Comments: cool encounters, cool loot, but the area as a whole doesn't make sense. There's a specially locked door I can't get through but I trust that'll sort itself out later. Annoyed at not finding the imp, but not feeling like combing the sewers to find it.

 

If this was P:E, I would blow one of my camping supplies right about now. If I was punishing myself, I'd trek right back to the Copper Coronet to rest, rest, then trek back here. Since I'm not, I intend to rest and reload until I don't get those annoying wandering monsters.

 

I do not care for the resting mechanic here actually. It strongly incentivizes degenerate behavior, namely, what I'm about to do next. I like P:E's camping supplies much better. Area-based resting would also work for me. Unlimited resting + wandering monsters is just an incentive for abuse, and without wandering monsters is an incentive for pure cheese.

 

Running commentary I wrote while playing below.

 

 

 

Anyway, proceeding. Back in Athkatla. Again, content density wow. I show up in Waukeen's Promenade and about a dozen people dump their problems on me. One a time, ladies, please! Somebody wants me to solve a problem in a village somewhere called the Umar Hills (I have no recollection what that's all about, from my previous games), Yoshimo needs to pee see some guy about something, a totally trustworthy-looking type wants to meet me at a graveyard at midnight, and more.

 

I did take a few rests at the Keep once the pressure was off, to open any boxes Yoshimo couldn't handle, reshuffle my spells and what have you, but oof.

 

I also want to check out what the deal is with the place I dumped the poisoned guy. There was another totally-not-evil guy there who I think I saw very briefly in BG1, it seemed intriguing. Think I'll be dumping my extra loot, then heading to the Docks District. The mad villagers can wait a bit.

 

Also, not 100% happy with my party composition. I have too much thief and not enough fighter. Yoshimo is a bro and more competent at thieving than Nalia, but I think Nalia's skills will do, even though she won't advance them, and Yoshimo can't do much other than thieve. I'd like to swap him out for a fighter or fighter/something. I'm missing a pure fighter.

 

...

 

Stopped by the Adventurers' Mart. Sold off my loot. I'm rich! RICH! Mmm, sweet looking quarterstaff +4 and full plate armor here... ding! buy. Wait, wasn't I supposed to collect some money for somebody so I could rescue Imoen/punch Irenicus in the nuts? Oh well, that can wait. Onward, then, to the Docks District.

 

... 

 

A'ight, so Iggy has gone undercover, working for one thief to discredit another. His own agenda: to expose both and bring an end to such unlawful activities once and for all. (Somehow I doubt that's gonna work, but hey, gotta try.)  Anyway, had to steal an amulet from the high priestess of a rather nasty god. Marched up to her and Dominated her. I expected that I'd just be able to tell her to hand it over, but no dice. Guess I'll have to be back come nightfall. -- Of course, being Awful Good, I'll have to put it back when I no longer need it. Very cool temple by the way.

 

And still more quests. Now the Helmites want me to investigate a cult. Maybe I'll do that while it's still daytime.  

 

...

 

wait wait wait 

 

Blind Eye... sewers... memories of getting ruthlessly murdered by beholders resurface. Fuu, how did you fight beholders again... don't want to cheese it with the shield of Balduran... must blind them somehow... I know: Glitterdust. That does mean resting to change the spell selection. But what the hey, I'm not supposed to know that yet, so off we go.

 

...

 

Got murdered by another adventuring party in the sewers. That... was tough. Tougher than I expected. They were slinging Finger of Death spells left and right, clearly many levels higher than I am. Not sure what I dig wrong there actually, other than being unsuccessful at suppressing the mage and not having mage-duel spells memorized. What is a dragon-killing-level party doing in the sewers, shaking up passers-by for 1000 GP? Does not make sense. Will try again.

 

...

 

Tried again. This time I broke out the heavy artillery. Opened up with a Cloak of Fear, a Fireball, and a couple of wands. Then everything was very hectic for a while, and the other party stopped moving. Don't even remember what I did but it was intense. Must've blown half my best spells here, but hey. ... Some NICE loot! Okay, gotta get back somewhere to get all this identified and unloaded, but I'll proceed for just a little bit more before that.

 

...

 

Hey, it's Razsius! Another Inquisitor! Awesome! But who will I dump? Eeny-meeny-miney-moe, Yoshimo's the one to go. Would've preferred a pure fighter, but maybe there's someone later.

 

...

 

Poking around, I found some kind of library with mephits in it. Who builds a library in a sewer, anyway? -- Ah, a wizard. Heh, wizards. Nicked some of his spells, Lawful Good paladin that I am, took another quest, and back to the sewers I go... unless, wait, can I rest up here? -- Nope, not safely, so heading back to the sewers. -- A raksasha, with kobolds? This is one busy sewer! -- more nice loot.

--

Also, impassable door. Must be the one with the cult? Let's keep looking, maybe I'll find some way to get through. Did not find the imp and mirror for the wizard, so continuing to the Old Sewers. Would really like to rest some time soon, but hey.

...

I have a bad feeling about this.

...

Ominous room. Trap. Untrap it. Ettercaps and shadows appear. Beat them up. Jaheira gets poisoned. Oops, looks like my potions of Health were with Yoshimo. Drop a Slow Poison on her instead and have her glug a potion of Healing to keep her alive. Now I really need to rest... so, save, quit, and go walk the dog.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2015 by PrimeJunta