REAL Time... (with pause)

[Surface Reflection]

There is a specific feature i saw in all so far released gameplay videos.

That feature compaunds with a few other ones, one being the way engagement is working now, to create combat gameplay that is not really good, inspiring or engaging.

 

The thing is Obsidian devs,... that you kinda forgot to pay a lot of attention to the REAL TIME part of the combat. There is practically none of it. Its all just pause-pause-pause-pause. You are paying too much attention to pausing and the dry skills and mechanics... that dont visually translate into real time part of the gameplay at all.

If you really want to have a great real time with pause combat and gameplay - you really, really need to invest a lot of time and effort into the REAL TIME section of the combat.

 

By that i specifically mean this: Your characters in this game close the distance to each other and then they just stand there and swing at each other, interupted by frequent pausing - while they just stand woodenly, not moving, not dodging, not doing anything at all. Any action and reaction is simply transfered through stats and calculations. Not through physical movement of the characters or creatures.

Sure they move when the player makes them move around, but thats just walking to a different-same spot and then doing the same thing all over again. Visually.

 

The combat is really hampered by the animations style and overall visual approach. The new mechanics would actually fully blossom only with appropriate visual representation.

PoE currently uses the old DnD "characters stand in place in front of one another and swing away", which pretty much ruins any organic flow a real time combat should exhibit. But there is actually no need for that anymore. That old presentation was there because the technology didnt alow for anything much better. Now it does.

There should be some movement to those bodies, some should be lurching, heaving, stepping around, jumping back and forth etc. Barbarians should be ponderous, swinging with wild swings or strikes, Rogues agile and lean, fast moving, dodging. All combined with swings of attacks and defense moves.

All these new mechanics would play into such new physical moves and animations perfectly. But right now, they simply dont translate into the Real Time part of the "Real Time with Pause".

I had hoped that the game will take such approach when i saw all those guys experimenting with weapons around Obsidian offices in that old update... but it seems you guys were just taking in how the weapons move. Not how the people holding them move in combat.

However, due to incredible amount of work this kind of visual representation would require im thinking this is far from possible, especially at this stage of the game development.

On the other hand... you will not be able to make combat really interesting, engaging or new in any way unless you do it.

 

 

 

[Sensuki]

I agree, this is a problem. It stems from the fact that most of the leads prefer turn-based combat to real-time combat, and really want to make a TB game. This is reflected through several of the designs, and basically ignoring any of the RT-isms that the Infinity Engine games had from being built off an RTS engine.

[Luridis]

I was just talking about this on Disqus the other day. Real time with pause is a compromise I think that unfortunately sacrifices the best of both worlds for a mediocre compromise. I completely understand why they did this, but I personally feel like riding the fence on it diminishes the game.

[Surface Reflection]

It isnt just that some devs may prefer TB which then translates to the game mechanics. I wouldnt really acuse someone so knowledgable about cRPGs as some of the older Devs are of that.

 

Its more the case of it simply being true by itself. As i argued for new Torment game when the time was for arguing, as soon as you have stats in the game, and as soon as you want them to atually matter - Turn Based fits such design much better because it enhances the importance of stats just by itself, naturally.

 Which then fits very, very well with cRPG types of games who provide players with gameplay influenced through character stats, rather then player reaction times.

 

Ofcourse, whether the player should have more influence on gameplay then stats is another matter. RTwP is a design that tries to do that, while still using stats as imprtant part of the gameplay. But, in order for it to really fully function, you really need to invest a lot of time, money and resources to make the real time component really good -  but connected to stats and mechanics, of course.

 

Maybe, since they delayed the game, some of this time can be used to improve the Real Time part of the combat too?

 

Maybe...they just didnt have time to get to it fully yet?

Lets hope so.

 

 

The purpoose of this post is simply to turn attention, to remind everyone about a very important angle to pay attention to, which very understandably may be overlooked due to enormous amounts of other features, related to "Baldurs Gate - D&D" kind of cRPG mechanics, stats, enviroenments, etc and all.

[Quadrone]

I see similar threads pop up from time to time with requests for intricate features or lamenting the absence of the same.

And most of the time I feel the posters of such threads are losing sight of the scope of this game.

This is a Kickstarter game. For a paltry 4 mil. we already get a game the size of, at least, Baldurs Gate 1 made from scratch.

Asking for such detailed combat animations is not only too late now, but probably out of the question ever. Though I'm certain Obsidian would be happy to provide if there was another million or two to employ some extra full time animators.

 

PS: I'm actually surprised you agree with the OP Sensuki. I would have sworn you'd say that a.) that isn't the way IE games did it and b.) that all the uncontrolable movement would harm combat readability.

[Surface Reflection]

I see similar threads pop up from time to time with requests for intricate features or lamenting the absence of the same.

And most of the time I feel the posters of such threads are losing sight of the scope of this game.

This is a Kickstarter game. For a paltry 4 mil. we already get a game the size of, at least, Baldurs Gate 1 made from scratch.

Asking for such detailed combat animations is not only too late now, but probably out of the question ever. Though I'm certain Obsidian would be happy to provide if there was another million or two to employ some extra full time animators.

 

PS: I'm actually surprised you agree with the OP Sensuki. I would have sworn you'd say that a.) that isn't the way IE games did it and b.) that all the uncontrolable movement would harm combat readability.

Thats because Sensuki read all of my post. I adressed that in it, you should acknowledge it.

Its all simple and obvious.

 

 

Yet - the matter still stands. Its a basic issue with RTwP kind of design. DFor it to really work very well you need both parts of it to be very good, not just one.

 

Furthermore - it wouldnt be any kind of uncontrolable movement. I directly argue for all this vidsuals to be connected to specific feats, abilities and skills.

That is also written in the post above.

[Quetzalcoatl]

If you have such high graphical standards, maybe this game isn't for you? Your post isn't even about the real-time aspect of the game, it's only about visual representation, so your topic title isn't really accurate.

 

And they can't have dodging animations, because dodging depends on your stats, you don't dodge out of the way like you would in an action game. Following your suggestions would mean making an entirely different game.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Osvir]

If you have such high graphical standards, maybe this game isn't for you? Your post isn't even about the real-time aspect of the game, it's only about visual representation, so your topic title isn't really accurate.

 

And they can't have dodging animations, because dodging depends on your stats, you don't dodge out of the way like you would in an action game. Following your suggestions would mean making an entirely different game.

 

Dodging could be an animation sequence, parrying too. Leaping into combat too. Instead of "Combat Log: Edér dodged the attack", you'd also be able to see it. Or swords clashing. The Player doesn't need to have control of the "dodge", but the animation would.

 

What I am trying to say is that it doesn't have to be an "Action Game" just because really good animations (that is out of the question in terms of budget). It is not an entirely different game, if it follows the core game. It'd be an entirely visually presented game, but under the hood, with the dice rolls and the data going through the Combat log, it'd be the same.

 

Instead of just "chop chop" at each other, they could parry, clash shields, and deal deathblows, and dodge out of the way. Under the hood, the characters would be throwing dice left and right, and perhaps even take lots of damage, but visually, an enemy would only be downed after you see a sword penetrating the chest.

 

I usually compare with Assassin's Creed in these discussions (cus it's been a topic before), imagine if it was top-down isometric, realtime with pause. Mouse and keyboard controls. You can click and move your Assassin, and when they engage in combat it's all up to the Character's statistics, how you've built them and so on and forth, of course you'd be able to insert some commands into the combat sequence taking place, to gain advantage and win, to use an ability or a spell. Just like the IE games and PoE functions.

 

The problem with this is that you'd require tons of different animations based on situations. It'd be most easy to make something like this with a boring encounter design (Face 1 enemy at a time, with 1 single player character). Or it'd require some really intelligent code and long pre-production to make it most effective, and templates, and time, so much time.

 

How do you take down a Centaur compared to a Gibberling? Or a dragon even? How would your characters animation work against the dragon? Would they hold up their shields against the flame? Would they be scorched to ash in moments? Would they dodge and eventually chop off the head of the flying lizard?

 

How would it work if you faced 2 enemies? Would they sync or would they abrupt the animations? Would a Dwarf with Hold the Line block and attack and be very active against opponents around him? Would he be losing "Endurance" over time due to his high-exortion of defending against them? Visually not taking a single hit, but visually over-extending his own stamina and getting more and more exhausted (thus, the Player would know why the character is taking Endurance damage).

 

Characters would either be severely injured or killed outright as the sword is laid out on top of them visually, and the Player would get the feedback to know that "Darn, my character got killed". It's not RNG, when you have the "Endurance" shield either, unless a critical hit would take place and break through the "Endurance".

 

From a Player perspective, you'd see the character fight with all their might, losing Endurance because of it, and when it gets low on Endurance you'd also find it making sense when the character is no longer defending as good as initially, and understand why the sword penetrated your character's chest, thus taking health damage and becoming either injured or dead.

 

The Point/TL;DR:

Good/Fluid Animations does not mean "It is now an Action Game". It becomes an Action Game when the Player gets to Control the Animations (Press "A"/"Left-Mouse Button" to attack). Like Assassin's Creed. But if Assassin's Creed only gave the Player control of the "movement" command (Which, in simplistic terms, is what the IE games do), it'd be an amazing looking RTwP game. "Mouse-click" would mean "Go to location", and if there's an enemy, the Character would engage and fight with that enemy, parry, dodge, block etc. all based on dice rolls+allowing the player to "insert" commands or new "animation" sequences mid-combat, or queue them up to take place when "X animation completed".

 

However, all of this is just theoretical and hypothetical, because it's out of the budget for Obsidian. But! All hope is not lost.... Ubisoft does have all the assets already in their Assassin Creed games, their great and fluid animations... they'd just need to want to develop a Realtime with Pause Game.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Osvir

[Nakia]

You can turnoff the pause functions.  You can let your party fight real time, 'course they will probably all die in certain fights but it will be in real time.  True the animations won't be great.

 

Should OE have gone with turn based in the first place?  It is too late now the desc ion has been made.  

 

Expecting OE to change systems or add things like fancy this late is unrealistic.  What they need to do is get the bugs fixed and balance the game.

 

Maybe Osvir is correct but that is up to OE to decide what they can do and can't do.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Nakia

[Sensuki]

PS: I'm actually surprised you agree with the OP Sensuki.

 

I don't agree about the animations, but the design itself. Having re-read what the OP has said it's possible that I don't actually agree with what he is saying, but I do think that Obsidian haven't really taken advantage of the RT side of the game as well as they could have.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Sensuki

[Osvir]

You can turnoff the pause functions.  You can let your party fight real time, 'course they will probably all die in certain fights but it will be in real time.  True the animations won't be great.

 

Should OE have gone with turn based in the first place?  It is too late now the desc ion has been made.  

 

Expecting OE to change systems or add things like fancy this late is unrealistic.  What they need to do is get the bugs fixed and balance the game.

 

Maybe Osvir is correct but that is up to OE to decide what they can do and can't do.

Correct? I'm not trying to be correct (except for the "Great animation does not equal Action Game", but combat would become way more "cinematic" action), I'm just throwing ideas (like always), and this is something I've said really early on how "Awesome it would be!!" regardless if for PoE or future PoE or any other future RTwP game, and OE has already said "That isn't happening anytime soon" or more correctly: "We don't have the budget for this" and even the Centaur example I use is something I think Tim Cain talked about in one of the earlier updates.

 

I'm just reminding whichever developer or journalist might peek in at this board and give some influence to this idea: "Realtime with Amazing Animations+Pause" make it happen, Internet!

 

EDIT:

IF OE had listened to me really early on and developed solely for the purpose of "cool" RTwP animations like both the OP and me are flirting towards, the game as we know it would've probably had 100 (exaggerated guess) times less content, with less enemies, less areas to explore, less narrative depth and less of everything except combat.

 

I am super glad they haven't taken this path, but I do hope they've laid out some groundwork, a base or a pillar for the future. Because this is such a daunting task (the animations that is), which would take an insane amount of time to develop, I'm thinking maybe Pillars of Eternity 3 might have more fluid animations, whilst Pillars of Eternity 2 might experiment with some more fluid animations.

 

I believe the time required to make good animations like this would take about 2-3 years in itself, for all classes, weapon-types, vs enemy-types, blocks, parries, rolls, dodges, jumping, tumbling, slow-paced samurai circling each animations, spell-animations that flows well with everything else and... every single animation working with every single animation, and bug testing. It's a motherload of work and it ain't happening anytime soon...

 

Unless Ubisoft with Assassin's Creed models and animations as templates ;D

Edited December 27, 2014 by Osvir

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

If you have such high graphical standards, maybe this game isn't for you? Your post isn't even about the real-time aspect of the game, it's only about visual representation, so your topic title isn't really accurate.

 

And they can't have dodging animations, because dodging depends on your stats, you don't dodge out of the way like you would in an action game. Following your suggestions would mean making an entirely different game.

 

Dodging could be an animation sequence, parrying too. Leaping into combat too. Instead of "Combat Log: Edér dodged the attack", you'd also be able to see it. Or swords clashing. The Player doesn't need to have control of the "dodge", but the animation would.

You misunderstood the gist of my argument. If it was an animation, that would mean the player would be penalized. They couldn't move/attack/cast in the time it took to play the dodge/parry animation. It would come at the cost of responsiveness.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Osvir]

^and "Recovery Time" isn't "At the cost of responsiveness"?

A dodge roll can take, 1 second, 2 seconds maybe even, if done by a martial artist or in the chaos of combat and adrenaline, and be ready to stand up and fight again, for the same amount of time it takes for that "Recovery Bar" to go to "0".

Edited December 27, 2014 by Osvir

[Quetzalcoatl]

^and "Recovery Time" isn't "At the cost of responsiveness"?

That's something completely different. A dodging animation means all kinds of practical issues. Like dodging while you're attacked, dodging while you're casting, dodging different attacks at around the same time. This isn't a problem in action games where dodging happens manually, but it is in a game where dodging happens passively depending on your stats.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Osvir]

I know, I'm not saying it doesn't cause tons of issues (It's kind of obvious that it would, and again, the development time of it). That doesn't mean I don't want to see it regardless, because I think it'd look and feel amazing.

Combat would become much more scripted. The Player pausing to throw a Fireball, and then it fizzles because your Wizard got attacked and decided to dodge. Or it blows up in the Wizards own face, or the Wizard dodges and throw the Fireball in motion.

Naturally and obviously, that isn't easy to create, and it'd take a really long time to create as well....

Unless you are Ubisoft and the 3D models and animations of the Assassin Creed games are nearly there already
 

Edited December 27, 2014 by Osvir

[Darkpriest]

I agree, this is a problem. It stems from the fact that most of the leads prefer turn-based combat to real-time combat, and really want to make a TB game. This is reflected through several of the designs, and basically ignoring any of the RT-isms that the Infinity Engine games had from being built off an RTS engine.

 

TB or not it does not really matter, I would argue that TB combat can have much better combat animations, interactions and finishers than real time, because in realtime you wan to have animations fairly plain and played fast so they do not mess too much with the real time animations and multiple calculations ( i will take an example of RTS Dawn of War - where people sometimes complained about too long combat finishers and thus made them unable to change orders efficiently and on the other hand a game like XCOM implemented some nice combat finishers, for example berserker or chryssalid attacks ending with death, or MEC killing mech units and berserkers)

[Darkpriest]

I was just talking about this on Disqus the other day. Real time with pause is a compromise I think that unfortunately sacrifices the best of both worlds for a mediocre compromise. I completely understand why they did this, but I personally feel like riding the fence on it diminishes the game.

 

anyone remember NWN combat animations? wasn't that RTwP?

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

I was just talking about this on Disqus the other day. Real time with pause is a compromise I think that unfortunately sacrifices the best of both worlds for a mediocre compromise. I completely understand why they did this, but I personally feel like riding the fence on it diminishes the game.

 

anyone remember NWN combat animations? wasn't that RTwP?

 

The Neverwinter Nights games used fake animations. They weren't a reflection of what really happened.

 

[Surface Reflection]

I was under the rule to have moderators check my first few posts as a newly registered member so i couldnt reply in time, but now you can see two replies made previously.

That should clarify a few things.

 

 

 

One very important thing i want to emphasize is that i am not arguing for a super awesome mega perfect animations for every possible movement.

I know that was not intentional but thats practically an argument by absurdity falacy.

If you cant make it the most fantastically awesome then you should not do anything at all - kind of a thing.

 

I would think that any improvement in that regard from current state until final release and maybe a few patches after that - would be a plus.

If things get 10% better after a month or two, then after more deveopment they get 15 % better then that. - "we" get a better game. Rght?

Thats my actual reasoning. The update about what crazy amount of resources and time animations require was an eye openning even for me.

 

Im keeping my expectations down to earth. But, this is still a beta with quite some time to go.

 

 

Well... lets go over a few things from the comments anyway.

 

 

If you have such high graphical standards, maybe this game isn't for you? Your post isn't even about the real-time aspect of the game, it's only about visual representation, so your topic title isn't really accurate.

 

And they can't have dodging animations, because dodging depends on your stats, you don't dodge out of the way like you would in an action game. Following your suggestions would mean making an entirely different game.

 

heh... how else would you represent a real time in your video game if not through visuals? telepathically? by sounds over black screen? smoke signals?

 

As i said in the very post that you responded to...

 

• - "paying too much attention to pausing and the dry skills and mechanics... that dont visually translate into real time part of the gameplay at all."

 

• - "The new mechanics would actually fully blossom only with appropriate visual representation."

 

• - "All these new mechanics would play into such new physical moves and animations perfectly. But right now, they simply dont translate into the Real Time part of the "Real Time with Pause"."

 

and also:

 

• - "However, due to incredible amount of work this kind of visual representation would require im thinking this is far from possible, especially at this stage of the game development."

 

 

i think that covers all your subsequent comments too.

 

 

 

 

Dodging could be an animation sequence, parrying too. Leaping into combat too. Instead of "Combat Log: Edér dodged the attack", you'd also be able to see it. Or swords clashing. The Player doesn't need to have control of the "dodge", but the animation would.

What I am trying to say is that it doesn't have to be an "Action Game" just because really good animations (that is out of the question in terms of budget). It is not an entirely different game, if it follows the core game. It'd be an entirely visually presented game, but under the hood, with the dice rolls and the data going through the Combat log, it'd be the same.

Instead of just "chop chop" at each other, they could parry, clash shields, and deal deathblows, and dodge out of the way. Under the hood, the characters would be throwing dice left and right, and perhaps even take lots of damage, but visually, an enemy would only be downed after you see a sword penetrating the chest.

I usually compare with Assassin's Creed in these discussions (cus it's been a topic before), imagine if it was top-down isometric, realtime with pause. Mouse and keyboard controls. You can click and move your Assassin, and when they engage in combat it's all up to the Character's statistics, how you've built them and so on and forth, of course you'd be able to insert some commands into the combat sequence taking place, to gain advantage and win, to use an ability or a spell. Just like the IE games and PoE functions.

 

Well yeah, but thats a hypothetical perfect super awesome execution of this idea thats a bit too fantastical for me, or PoE at this point.

 

 

 

 

The problem with this is that you'd require tons of different animations based on situations. It'd be most easy to make something like this with a boring encounter design (Face 1 enemy at a time, with 1 single player character). Or it'd require some really intelligent code and long pre-production to make it most effective, and templates, and time, so much time.

 

 

Any improvement would be a good improvement in this case. As i said above im not suggesting some insane proposition or basically, anything that is out of the reach of Obsidian studios.

 

And frankly, if some guys like Iron Towres studios can make additional and very cool animations for their TB game - all connected to stats, then Obsidian surely can too. If not then they should hire IT sole animator to do it on the side for them. the guy is very good, btw.

 

 

 

How do you take down a Centaur compared to a Gibberling? Or a dragon even? How would your characters animation work against the dragon?

 

 

Why would you need to take down a dragon? Like what...wrestle him down? Tackle gibberlings?

You would do whatever you do usually in the game. With a few extra moves.

 

 

 

Would they hold up their shields against the flame? Would they be scorched to ash in moments? Would they dodge and eventually chop off the head of the flying lizard?

Holding your shield up is certainly something i would hope a modern game can reach.    :stare:

Not sure what you mean by being scorched by flames into ash.... ever played Fallout?

No need for any flying jumps like in peter jackson movies.

 

 

 

How would it work if you faced 2 enemies? Would they sync or would they abrupt the animations? Would a Dwarf with Hold the Line block and attack and be very active against opponents around him? Would he be losing "Endurance" over time due to his high-exortion of defending against them? Visually not taking a single hit, but visually over-extending his own stamina and getting more and more exhausted (thus, the Player would know why the character is taking Endurance damage).

 

 

Its not that complicated. Usual attacks wouldnt have any special animations.  In case a character is holding a shield up - he just gets damaged if he fails his block roll. No need to have a special animation where the weapon is bypassing the shield and actually cutting or making wounds or stabbing anything.

 

When a specific critical or dodge roll suceeds and fires off there would be animation for it. Because thats special.

That animation in turn would not disrupt any other clear hit from other oponents in case of there being more of them. So if you would be performing a dodge, for example, from one enemy... the other would roll his attack against you and either achieve a hit without any additional animations or a miss.

 

If the second enemy would score a critical while you are dodging then that animation would disrupt the dodge animation and execute whatever it needs to in that case. Its not really anything extraordinary to see a character fall or crouch maybe when crited.

 

Its not rocket science.

If the starting idea is actually down to earth and as simple as possible.

 

 

From a Player perspective, you'd see the character fight with all their might, losing Endurance because of it, and when it gets low on Endurance you'd also find it making sense when the character is no longer defending as good as initially,

 

 

Or slowing down visibly, for example.... and maybe making wider lurching attacks which can be borrowed from other classes animations of the same kind.

 

 

 

 

 

PS: I'm actually surprised you agree with the OP Sensuki.

 

I don't agree about the animations, but the design itself. Having re-read what the OP has said it's possible that I don't actually agree with what he is saying, but I do think that Obsidian haven't really taken advantage of the RT side of the game as well as they could have.

 

 

Just read what i am saying instead of what someone else is saying i am saying while under wrong impressions.

 

You might wanna re-read it again maybe.

 

 

 

 

 

Additionally...

 

Lets all take a moment and remember how super cool animaions were in Temple of Elemental Evil when it came out. And that was a TB game that has much less requirements to present real time movement, unlike RTwP.

Yet even in such a case it all looked and felt and played much better then any of the previous such games.

 

 

If only Obsidian had somene from Troika to give them soom bost and good advices in that area too... hey... whadya know? eh?

 

Hats off for mr Cain.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Surface Reflection

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

If you have such high graphical standards, maybe this game isn't for you? Your post isn't even about the real-time aspect of the game, it's only about visual representation, so your topic title isn't really accurate.

 

And they can't have dodging animations, because dodging depends on your stats, you don't dodge out of the way like you would in an action game. Following your suggestions would mean making an entirely different game.

 

heh... how else would you represent a real time in your video game if not through visuals? telepathically? by sounds over black screen? smoke signals?

 

As i said in the very post that you responded to...

 

• - "paying too much attention to pausing and the dry skills and mechanics... that dont visually translate into real time part of the gameplay at all."

 

• - "The new mechanics would actually fully blossom only with appropriate visual representation."

 

• - "All these new mechanics would play into such new physical moves and animations perfectly. But right now, they simply dont translate into the Real Time part of the "Real Time with Pause"."

 

and also:

 

• - "However, due to incredible amount of work this kind of visual representation would require im thinking this is far from possible, especially at this stage of the game development."

 

 

i think that covers all your subsequent comments too.

You didn't address a single thing I wrote, you're just parroting your own arguments which I've already refuted. As I said, this is a game where dodging is passive and happens through your stats. You don't dodge manually (like you would in an action game). Therefore dodging has to be abstracted to an extent. Dragon Age: Origins did this as well and that was a triple-A game with a much bigger budget.

 

And frankly, if some guys like Iron Towres studios can make additional and very cool animations for their TB game - all connected to stats, then Obsidian surely can too. If not then they should hire IT sole animator to do it on the side for them. the guy is very good, btw.

Because it's turn-based. There is no concept of time. This is a real-time game, if dodging animations happened without the input of the player, this would hurt combat.

 

 

Lets all take a moment and remember how super cool animaions were in Temple of Elemental Evil when it came out. And that was a TB game that has much less requirements to present real time movement, unlike RTwP.

Yet even in such a case it all looked and felt and played much better then any of the previous such games.

 

If only Obsidian had somene from Troika to give them soom bost and good advices in that area too... hey... whadya know? eh?

 

Hats off for mr Cain.

Again, it's turn-based. And you realize Tim Cain is working on this game too? Though I fail to see what it has to do with anything since he's not an animator.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Surface Reflection]

No, its only you parroting your own misunderstood nonsense while failing to understand or actually read a single thing i am saying in direct reply to your incorrect and quite ludicrous assmptions.

What i said makes your strawman arguments and those ridiculous invented assumptions irrelevant.

 

That you cannot understand such a simple and direct answer is not my problem.

 

For christ sake... i even quoted three sentences where i argue that these animations should be depandant on mechanics and serve to make mechanics more invested and integrated into all portions of the game and you reply to me about some real time game like youre talking about some fps action game.

 

 

Because it's turn-based. There is no concept of time. This is a real-time game, if dodging animations happened without the input of the player, this would hurt combat.

 

There is a concept of time in TB. Its represented through TURNS.

 

And... in a REAL TIME WITH PAUSE cRPG games all kinds of animations are constantly happening without direct input of the player.

You dont understand even these basics? ffs..

 

 

 

Again, it's turn-based. And you realize Tim Cain is working on this game too?

 

 

How is it even possible to formulate a question like this adressing a sentence where i say "hey... whadya know? eh?".... "Hats of to mr Cain?" Are you that special?

Also, did a small gnome tell you i somehow dont know where mr Cain is working?

 

Why would i even seriously consider anyone like you at all?

 

 

 

He may not be an animator but he is a legendary grand master of cRPG design, with - of course - direct involvement in ToEE - about which i was talking there.

 

As i said already - the point is that even a turn based game, which doesnt have almost any requirements for real time gameplay animations since there the time is abstracted into TURNS - such animations improved the overall feel of the game.

 

Therefore in Real Time with Pause cRPG it would have even bigger and better effect.

Kids would be able to get this.

 

Unless we are to listen to nonsensical people like you flying off on some tangents that your own head invented based on your ludicrous misunderstanding and even more nonsensical assumptions and lack of basic knowledge about cRPGs of any kind. And then get a game in 2015 where two characters stand infront of each other and swing away.

 

Since you wont be able to understand even this and will reply with more repeatition of nonsense you invent for yourself dont expect any particular answer anymore.

 

 

...

Since this, contrary to any sane reason or common sense will probably mean that other poster will somehow think that you had any point ill nail it down a bit harder by repeating it all a second time.

 

 

If you have such high graphical standards, maybe this game isn't for you? Your post isn't even about the real-time aspect of the game, it's only about visual representation, so your topic title isn't really accurate.

 

How else would you represent a real time in your video game if not through visuals? telepathically? by sounds over black screen? smoke signals?

 

- you are able to understand that real time gameplay can be only represented thorugh visuals, riiiiight?

Its not about graphics, ...genious, but actually improving real time of the game by using all these new and flashy improved mechanics for something actually imbedded into the real time part. - through skills and stats and mechanics!

 

 

 

 

And they can't have dodging animations, because dodging depends on your stats, you don't dodge out of the way like you would in an action game. Following your suggestions would mean making an entirely different game.

 

- in a Real Time WITH PAUSE game of this kind all kinds of animations are constantly happening without direct input of the player. Ever played any DnD game?

Ever played any cRPG?  Ever?

Edited December 28, 2014 by Surface Reflection

[Osvir]

I was under the rule to have moderators check my first few posts as a newly registered member so i couldnt reply in time, but now you can see two replies made previously.

That should clarify a few things.

 

One very important thing i want to emphasize is that i am not arguing for a super awesome mega perfect animations for every possible movement. // Haha, but I am! Industrywise, animations are going to get better and better. Like, I understand that OE doesn't have it for PoE and probably never will have it either, just saying I think there is so much potential in it in a RTwP game. I'm speaking broadly and visionarily about it, not where it is or will be.

Im keeping my expectations down to earth. But, this is still a beta with quite some time to go.

// Of course. It's not what I expect, demand or even suggest, it's just dreams of what would be my dream system

 

Dodging could be an animation sequence, parrying too. Leaping into combat too. Instead of "Combat Log: Edér dodged the attack", you'd also be able to see it. Or swords clashing. The Player doesn't need to have control of the "dodge", but the animation would.

 

What I am trying to say is that it doesn't have to be an "Action Game" just because really good animations (that is out of the question in terms of budget). It is not an entirely different game, if it follows the core game. It'd be an entirely visually presented game, but under the hood, with the dice rolls and the data going through the Combat log, it'd be the same.

 

Instead of just "chop chop" at each other, they could parry, clash shields, and deal deathblows, and dodge out of the way. Under the hood, the characters would be throwing dice left and right, and perhaps even take lots of damage, but visually, an enemy would only be downed after you see a sword penetrating the chest.

 

I usually compare with Assassin's Creed in these discussions (cus it's been a topic before), imagine if it was top-down isometric, realtime with pause. Mouse and keyboard controls. You can click and move your Assassin, and when they engage in combat it's all up to the Character's statistics, how you've built them and so on and forth, of course you'd be able to insert some commands into the combat sequence taking place, to gain advantage and win, to use an ability or a spell. Just like the IE games and PoE functions.

 

Well yeah, but thats a hypothetical perfect super awesome execution of this idea thats a bit too fantastical for me, or PoE at this point. // Not perfect, just well-developed, it'd probably take several years & cost & tech, to achieve just the system. Something like Assassin's Creed animations in slower non-action-game tempo. If you duel with enemies in Assassin's Creed, and simulate real time pacing of the IE games, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

 

How do you take down a Centaur compared to a Gibberling? Or a dragon even? How would your characters animation work against the dragon?

 

Why would you need to take down a dragon? Like what...wrestle him down? Tackle gibberlings?

You would do whatever you do usually in the game. With a few extra moves.

 

// It was rethorical, like, how would an animation look like of a "cinematic" sequenced fight against a dragon? If done super amazingly, that is. How would the characters act, run, hide, shield, block etc. How would the dragon act? (again, rethorical) How much time would it take to develop such a system? How do you translate the animations/movements seen in CGI from one of the Dragon Age: Origins trailers, into the game space? <- Imagine that in a realtime top-down isometric game, with pausing. Overlooking the battlefield and moving your characters/using abilities. Not happening anytime soon, but hey, just saying, it'd be Fabolous~! 

 

Would they hold up their shields against the flame? Would they be scorched to ash in moments? Would they dodge and eventually chop off the head of the flying lizard?

Holding your shield up is certainly something i would hope a modern game can reach.    :stare:

Not sure what you mean by being scorched by flames into ash.... ever played Fallout?

No need for any flying jumps like in peter jackson movies.

 

//Not even a Monk leaping with foot first into combat from a distance? Or running in real close, dashing up some sand or dust on the ground, and landing a Van Damme Roundhouse kick to the oppressors face? Or a Rogue, first dodging a sword strike, and then using the leverage of the enemy's body to "Leap" or "Jump" (Escape) away from the opponent. A Barbarian "Wild Sprinting", like a Rugby Player, plus swinging his two axes back and forth across like oars, or even "berserker" gung-ho Rambo leaping.

 

How would it work if you faced 2 enemies? Would they sync or would they abrupt the animations? Would a Dwarf with Hold the Line block and attack and be very active against opponents around him? Would he be losing "Endurance" over time due to his high-exortion of defending against them? Visually not taking a single hit, but visually over-extending his own stamina and getting more and more exhausted (thus, the Player would know why the character is taking Endurance damage).

 

Its not that complicated. Usual attacks wouldnt have any special animations.  In case a character is holding a shield up - he just gets damaged if he fails his block roll. No need to have a special animation where the weapon is bypassing the shield and actually cutting or making wounds or stabbing anything.

 

When a specific critical or dodge roll suceeds and fires off there would be animation for it. Because thats special.

That animation in turn would not disrupt any other clear hit from other oponents in case of there being more of them. So if you would be performing a dodge, for example, from one enemy... the other would roll his attack against you and either achieve a hit without any additional animations or a miss.

 

If the second enemy would score a critical while you are dodging then that animation would disrupt the dodge animation and execute whatever it needs to in that case. Its not really anything extraordinary to see a character fall or crouch maybe when crited.

 

Its not rocket science.

If the starting idea is actually down to earth and as simple as possible.

//The "starting idea" is never rocket science either  

 

From a Player perspective, you'd see the character fight with all their might, losing Endurance because of it, and when it gets low on Endurance you'd also find it making sense when the character is no longer defending as good as initially,

 

Or slowing down visibly, for example.... and maybe making wider lurching attacks which can be borrowed from other classes animations of the same kind.

 

//Slowing down "action speed" based on Endurance levels?

[Darkpriest]

 

 

I was just talking about this on Disqus the other day. Real time with pause is a compromise I think that unfortunately sacrifices the best of both worlds for a mediocre compromise. I completely understand why they did this, but I personally feel like riding the fence on it diminishes the game.

 

anyone remember NWN combat animations? wasn't that RTwP?

 

The Neverwinter Nights games used fake animations. They weren't a reflection of what really happened.

 

 

 

but it looked alive and it was fairly accurate. when the character got hit, it got hit.

[Surface Reflection]

Ahh... thats how you quote around here. I was wandering why i cant easily split parts of a quote.

 

That looks weird.

 

Anyone knows why  my spellchecker doesnt work here?

 

 

// Haha, but I am! Industrywise, animations are going to get better and better. Like, I understand that OE doesn't have it for PoE and probably never will have it either, just saying I think there is so much potential in it in a RTwP game. I'm speaking broadly and visionarily about it, not where it is or will be.

 

Oh, in that case i completely agree.

But its not a subject i was trying to discuss.

 

Im keeping my expectations down to earth. But, this is still a beta with quite some time to go.

 

// Of course. It's not what I expect, demand or even suggest, it's just dreams of what would be my dream system

 

 

Just clarifying things from my angle to try to avoid thread going into wrong and pointless directions because someone misunderstood something. 

 

 

 

 

// Not perfect, just well-developed, it'd probably take several years & cost & tech, to achieve just the system. Something like Assassin's Creed animations in slower non-action-game tempo. If you duel with enemies in Assassin's Creed, and simulate real time pacing of the IE games, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

 

I already see it. For quite some tme  Its only the sub-genre natural progression and evolution.

Yes, it would need to be very, very well seriously pre planned from ground up. But it wouldnt require anything that doesnt practically exist already.

 

You should see what i have in mind for my (fairly vapurware) imaginary TB game... There would be some serious jaw dropping and drooling if i ever do it.

 

 

 

// It was rethorical, like, how would an animation look like of a "cinematic" sequenced fight against a dragon? If done super amazingly, that is. How would the characters act, run, hide, shield, block etc. How would the dragon act? (again, rethorical) How much time would it take to develop such a system? How do you translate the animations/movements seen in CGI from one of the Dragon Age: Origins trailers, into the game space? <- Imagine that in a realtime top-down isometric game, with pausing. Overlooking the battlefield and moving your characters/using abilities. Not happening anytime soon, but hey, just saying, it'd be Fabolous~! 

 

 

Yeah, the answer was a bit rhetorical too

 

It would be pretty fabolous, especially since it would be all governed by stats and skills and mechanics working under the hood.

Much more fitting for a cRPG game then some ludicrous nonsense of animations that are always under player control...

 

 

Dragon Age...? No! Nooooooo! Aaaarghhh!

 

...

...

 

oh... Origins? Phew...! ok...that one was mostly bearable.

 

Gave me a scare there...

 

 

 

Would they hold up their shields against the flame? Would they be scorched to ash in moments? Would they dodge and eventually chop off the head of the flying lizard?

Holding your shield up is certainly something i would hope a modern game can reach.    :stare:

Not sure what you mean by being scorched by flames into ash.... ever played Fallout?

No need for any flying jumps like in peter jackson movies.

 

//Not even a Monk leaping with foot first into combat from a distance? Or running in real close, dashing up some sand or dust on the ground, and landing a Van Damme Roundhouse kick to the oppressors face? Or a Rogue, first dodging a sword strike, and then using the leverage of the enemy's body to "Leap" or "Jump" (Escape) away from the opponent. A Barbarian "Wild Sprinting", like a Rugby Player, plus swinging his two axes back and forth across like oars, or even "berserker" gung-ho Rambo leaping.

 

 

 

Oh a Monk for sure, we had leg and arm kicks in fallout ffs...right? Here they would just be a bit improved and fully in RTwP. Then you add closing the distance animation or two, avoidance and dodging animation or two, with a few jump combinations. Easy peasy.

Sand or dust in the face could be a Rogue little trick - and you dont even need to have any actual sand or dust modeled at all. You can just use a small spell like visual effect for it.

 

Van damme... im not too sure about that.... ;P

Or any ther way too epic stunts like leaping and cutting off dragons heads in flight. or jumping over someones hands or all around and over Eliphants.... But more plausible and belivable stuff would be cool.

 

I always imagine a barbarian to be looking and moving like Conan the Symerian - the one from original comics, to be sure. But yeah, a few other versions of the type would be very welcome for diversity. Cant always have Conan... damnit...

Just depends on what ratio of strength - agility - stamina you choose in character creation, eh?

 

Dwarves, btw, would just stand and take it. Like a little stone barrels they are in DnD. And dish more back ofcourse.

 

 

//The "starting idea" is never rocket science either  

 

Isnt that the truth. haha...

 

//Slowing down "action speed" based on Endurance levels?

 

 

Oh yeah. Maybe not for PoE itself (although i would like something like that, maybe in some harder mode) but speaking generally, yes. Or whatever other appropriate stat some other cRPG uses for such stuff.

 

 

/

 

 

However... i would prefer if we get back on track of my original suggestion.

which was about how something of this kind could be realistically done in PoE - in a way fitting for PoE specifically.

 

 

Someone mentioned money and kickstarter and this and that before?

 

Im pretty sure they wont just stand there and refuse to invest more of their own money in the game if the situation demands it. I wouldnt be exactly surprised if they already burned through what they got from kictsarter.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Surface Reflection

[Sensuki]

TB games can have better animations because they can have more animation frames to work with - as animations aren't really time critical.

 

Animations in RT are time-critical, so they have to be fairly quick.