A Look at "Endurance"

[Osvir]

With my stumbles in my Solo play, a thought popped up as I wrote that thread. Thoughts I had forgotten from way back when, and I'm unsure if I ever brought it up.

When the "Stamina" (now "Endurance") system was introduced, I thought it was going to be a system that knocked you out, and whilst you're knocked out you'd regenerate some "Endurance" over time, and then get up and get into the fight again. Or even have your Priest have a specific "Endurance Resurrection Heal" to get them back into the fight, or a Fighter pulling the knocked down character up to join the fight.

Admittedly, I haven't looked close enough to see if there are any abilities that can bring back maimed characters into combat, but if there are any I presume only the Priest has the ability to do so.

Naturally, because I am a fountain of ideas: When you get knocked out, down to 0 Endurance, you first take a chunk of damage to your health, then being "maimed" for a while, and regenerating Endurance slowly up to maybe 20%. Whilst being "maimed", enemies would be able to target the maimed character, and all attacks would deal mostly Health damage.

And some Grandia-esque influence: Whilst regenerating from maimed status (in-combat), the enemies hitting you at 15% Endurance, could stall the Character from getting up and keeping them out of the fight longer.

It could introduce more usage for spells such as the Wizards teleport spell (switching targets), or shielding spells on the downed target. It becomes an objective to protect the downed character, and it gives the AI an incentive (a trigger) to go for your downed characters and focus you down (Just like Shevek is focusing down one enemy at a time in his Combat Vid).

The conditions for getting your character up again would be:
A) End the fight/Win
B) Heal the maimed character
C) Regeneration time for the downed character (for longer battles)

Each time a character goes down to a maimed state they would take Health damage, perhaps even an injury, so when they do come back into the fight, they'd be at a weakened state for the duration of the combat.

The reason to why I am, hm, pondering about this mechanic is because of two reasons, I didn't like that I lost the game by being "maimed" whilst I still questionably "won" the fight against the Beetle (See the "Solo Play" link), and I don't like it in a party battle that one of my characters are taken out of the strategy/tactic completely after being "maimed" and I have no way of bringing them back into it (They aren't dead after all, just maimed/hurt/tired).

The perception of the combat and having one character going down gives me the feeling that the character temporarily died, because when they do they are pretty much dead during that encounter, taken out of the game briefly, and there is no in-combat interaction or strategy for when it happens.

EDIT: Or using an item, "Smelling Salt" or similar. A Barbarian "kicking" the "maimed" character (costing some "Health" but gets them up at the very least) and so on.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Osvir

[Mlatimudan]

The thing is that I think your friends are supposed to heal you after battle and if you haven't got any friends you die from your wounds, I think that double K.O-s like the one you experienced would be very rare in the game.

 

Just think about it, If you get stabbed three times in the gut but manage to kill the stabber, you will still die if you don't have someone to get you to a hospital (or to your party medic with bandages or healing spells as it were). It doesn't matter that you "won" since you are still dead.

 

The endurance/health system is an abstraction, you don't really get tired if you get hit with a club, you get your ribs broken, if you have friends around they help you after the fight, if not the wasteland claims you.

 

Also even if you are supposed to be knocked out and not injured/incapacitated why would you regenerate endurance while knocked out on the floor but not while standing, surely taking a breather is better for rejuvenation then a short term koma.

[Captain Shrek]

Just a question Osvir.

 

What does any of the mechanics you propose require an Endurance/HP split? Just a single bar would work there with the injury system. 

[Osvir]

Hm, I'm not quite sure I understand the question...?

[nipsen]

Weren't the high-level resurrection spells supposed to work that way? That you could get a maimed, but still conscious party-member back on their feet before the fight ended. With a certain amount of stamina left, and the same amount of hit-points as when they were knocked down.. And that people who got killed/no hp either were permanently dead or only possible to raise at a dark temple in the woods or something like that?

[Captain Shrek]

Hm, I'm not quite sure I understand the question...?

 

 

It's been puzzling for me, why we need two health bars. 

 

As you point out, just having an injury system that triggers every time when you faint in combat is actually enough motivation for the player to NOT lose all the "endurance".

 

I would suggest removing the stamina system entirely. just replace it with one bar that is affected. And the penalty for emptying that is simple: You have 0 health left AND an injury. Now to recover the health you must either rest or use magic. The game already has healing magic. 

[ISC]

 

It's been puzzling for me, why we need two health bars. 

 

As you point out, just having an injury system that triggers every time when you faint in combat is actually enough motivation for the player to NOT lose all the "endurance".

 

I would suggest removing the stamina system entirely. just replace it with one bar that is affected. And the penalty for emptying that is simple: You have 0 health left AND an injury. Now to recover the health you must either rest or use magic. The game already has healing magic. 

 

 

Well, I think the point is that health will remain from one battle to another, and therefor you have to play more strategically and reserve health/camping supplies than you would have if you could simply rest/heal at any moment.

[Captain Shrek]

I don't get it. The thing I suggest also has a consistent no-regenerating HP. And the injuries remain. Healing should be per rest. Supplies are already limited. So why two bars?

[Osvir]

I kind of look at Endurance/Health as a long-term -1, -2, -3, etc.

Instead of going down to 0 Health, and then -1, -2, -3, etc. You go down to 0 Endurance, then you get a persistant -1. If you get 0 Endurance next fight, you have -2, etc. etc.

EDIT: And to respond to the other thread: It makes sense that if you go down to 0 Endurance, you'd get -2, -3, -4 in Pillars of Eternity if you are a solo character. I understand now that you go down to 0 Endurance 1 fight, and your party members stabilizes you at -1. But if you have no party members, the clock would continue to tick -2, -3 etc.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Osvir

[Osvir]

But, as I was corrected in the other thread, I researched a bit. Both Update #24 and the Wiki (Vitality) and this is what I found under Endurance:

"Some abilities allow to revive an unconscious party members during combat"

These are not in the Backer Beta, or, again, I haven't checked out the abilities in the Beta enough?

EDIT: Also, in light of my post above this one: Having a system where you can Res your characters in combat, one could look at it as the "in-combat tending" to the wounds. The character got 0 Endurance? Got knocked down to -1 Health. You stabilize them, get them back up into the fight with 20%-50% Endurance (depending on strength of ability). If they get knocked down again in the fight, -2 Health.

Of course, it's not meant to be "You have 10/10 Endurance Bars before death!". Critical hits, or damage that goes through the Endurance bar, could hit the character really good, and your Health goes from -1 to -4 etc. etc.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Osvir