Combat Guide for New Players [Youtube series]

[Sensuki]

The combat in Pillars of Eternity is currently a bit off-putting to players unfamiliar with the Infinity Engine games, who may not be used to isometric combat that requires more active input from the player. There is also the fact that the content in the beta is from the middle of the game, and you are expected to know how to play five characters at once and all of their abilities which can be a bit overwhelming at first.

 

While I don't think that combat in Pillars of Eternity is necessarily difficult, there's a few roadbumps before it becomes smooth sailing, and this can lead to full party wipes early on and the illusion of difficulty. The character creation screens, level up screens and user interface does not do a very good job at engaging new players with the mechanics and the speed that combat begins and ends in Pillars of Eternity is very fast. The key mistake I see new players making is not pausing or slowing the game down and actively controlling all of their characters.

So I have decided to make a new series of videos aimed at helping new and casual players avoid the gotchas of character creation and leveling up, explain how the mechanics work so that they can make informed decisions on character building choices and help them through the roadbumps of combat.

 

My first video in this series focuses on leveling up a Barbarian and combat against a group of beetles with the standard BB party and gear. I go into details about Attribute selection, Ability selection, Talent selection, Optimizing party gear, the importance of pausing (or using slow), the combat opening, strategical decisions, tactical decisions and the importance of regularly assigning characters new actions.

 

 

One of the things I forgot to go into in the video is the Engagement system, which I think will catch new players unawares due to the nature of the invisible disengagement attacks - anyone who hasn't played D&D or a Neverwinter Nights game is going to be unfamiliar with the concept. I believe the engagement system makes combat in Pillars of Eternity less tactical due to the restriction of movement in melee and isn't very fun. I'll make sure I include that in the next video.

It is up to the developers to improve combat and make it enjoyable, as well as improve the intuitiveness of the user interface screens before release.

 

_{Edit: Barbaric Blow is also a really good talent for Barbarians as well, but it's not grouped with the other ones in the Talent list so I forgot to mention it.}
 

Edited November 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

I don't think the reason people don't like combat is that we have 5th level party, it's because the combat is really bad in PoE.

 

I agree and I am going to focus pretty much all of my efforts over the coming months to identify problems and solutions with combat. I will keep doing these videos though so that new players who want to play the beta can play through the game while having an easier time with the combat.

 

I'm currently writing a PE Beta Preview for the RPGCodex and there will be a big section on combat, why it's bad and how it might be able to be improved before release, and I've got a bunch of other ideas for threads coming up as well.

 

The speed of combat (it's quick to commence and quick to end) is the main problem, other than that I think part of the problem is that a lot of the decisions made for combat have been made in a turn-based mindset. One of those is the idea that movement and non-movement actions must come from the same 'resource pool' like they do in turn-based (actions and action points). This is not how it is in real-time (and also it doesn't have to be like that in turn-based either, as there are games that split actions into movement points and action points) and while thankfully they've removed recovery time pause while moving - there's a few more things holding the game back from remotely feeling like an Infinity Engine game.

 

There are reasons why people like Kotaku are saying "why isn't this turn-based?", but the answer is not to make it turn-based, it's to turn the design more towards real-time. 

Edited November 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Guest 4ward]

this is easily the best video on PoE i've seen. Great also for us who don't have beta access.

you make it sound simple it's easy to understand and is helpful to all players. More of this please. It gives hope after the horror and drama of your Sensuki vs Medreth videos

Combat has lots of potential i think. Hopefully they'll add the accuracy values for the weapons. An attack resolution calculation on enemy mouseover taking into consideration your gear would be great (if that isn't already in the game, i couldn't figure that out from your video).

[Sensuki]

The calculations can be shown in the combat log if you mouse over the entry, it will bring up the math. In the Infinity Engine games you could turn the math on so that it would give you the raw numbers instead of just a "A hit B for x damage". I would prefer to see the raw numbers by default myself.

Got some stuff coming up for ideas how to improve combat, some of it in collaboration with other backers, probably over the next few weeks. 

Edited November 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[prodigydancer]

Thanks Sensuki! As always, any effort to make things better is appreciated but there's one thing that is deeply worrying me.

The issues with combat we've been observing since BB initial release in August have all the telltale signs of developers not using their own product. (And before anyone cries "impossible" - sorry, guys, it's a very common situation in software development.) They are probably good enough at programming and they know how to make things nominally work but they're obviously not gamers and they don't actually play the game much. Chances are (if, for example, they use the test-driven development model) they almost never touch it at all.

What this means for us is that feedback can make certain isolated issues here and there go away but no amount of feedback will help with complex structural problems like combat pacing, inconvenient UI, broken attribute system and useless abilities.

 

At this point I'm quite pessimistic about what can be done.

Edited November 9, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Sensuki]

I think that's why they had an internal playthrough week this week But yeah I agree, if I had to guess I would say many of the staff hadn't played too much of the game and probably haven't even touched an Infinity Engine game before or in a VERY LONG TIME. A lot of the decisions seem to be based on the memory of a memory of the Infinity Engine games, and not actually what's in the game.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sedrefilos]

Transparent morning star kicks ass. Enemies cant's see what you're hitting them with! Should be used as a magical weapon

Edited November 10, 2014 by Sedrefilos

[Lord Wafflebum]

Thanks for this. Much needed. You and Shevek are doing a public service with these guides.

[constantine]

It's 'Alpha Protocol:the espionage rpg' all over again.

[Namutree]

It's 'Alpha Protocol:the espionage rpg' all over again.

What do you mean?

[constantine]

Alpha Pr was successful in story- roleplay elements, but combat was a failure.

[Sensuki]

Sounds like most of Obsidian's games actually. The story is always pretty good. Combat is never really that good.

[Gairnulf]

Nice of you to post this guide. At least I know I haven't missed anything important about how to play the battles more efficiently. Although I can't bring myself to use undressed characters, it just doesn't feel normal

[Sensuki]

If it helps, you can download a mod that gives you the ability to summon items and give them some clothing. I did that for some of my Beetles videos.

[Gairnulf]

If it helps, you can download a mod that gives you the ability to summon items and give them some clothing. I did that for some of my Beetles videos.

It may be fun to try, where are those mods?

Edited November 11, 2014 by Gairnulf

[Sensuki]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/69199-possible-spoilers-modding-thread-a-simple-mod-and-console-commands/?do=findComment&comment=1530388

[Gwyn]

Quite a nice video. Nice job.

[Guest 4ward]

Sounds like most of Obsidian's games actually. The story is always pretty good. Combat is never really that good.

just as a side note, the newest DA (Inquisition) from Bioware got its reviews today. The PC reviewers are lamenting the absence of tactical combat due to few abilities (passive play, no input from the player required except against dragons) and btw also notice that the PC version is better off with gamepad controls than mouse + keyboard. Ahh, Bioware....

[Sensuki]

I dunno if PE is that much better at the moment. Probably a little bit, but eh.

 

Bioware know they can sell copies so it's all about a cheap cash grab

[Gairnulf]

 

Sounds like most of Obsidian's games actually. The story is always pretty good. Combat is never really that good.

 

just as a side note, the newest DA (Inquisition) from Bioware got its reviews today. The PC reviewers are lamenting the absence of tactical combat due to few abilities (passive play, no input from the player required except against dragons) and btw also notice that the PC version is better off with gamepad controls than mouse + keyboard. Ahh, Bioware....

Those reviewers are either twisting facts to attract people who want an easy game, or have gone through the game on easy difficulty themselves. I've watched Laidlaw play on hard on twitch, and he wouldn't get far without pausing.

[MReed]

I read a couple of reviews myself (thanks for mentioning that they were out), and the 3-4 reviews that I read made it clear that there is no reason to pause the game, use the tactical view, or even use active skills on Normal mode.  One pointed out that on Hard or Nightmare these features were indeed required, so YMMV.

[Gairnulf]

I read a couple of reviews myself (thanks for mentioning that they were out), and the 3-4 reviews that I read made it clear that there is no reason to pause the game, use the tactical view, or even use active skills on Normal mode.  One pointed out that on Hard or Nightmare these features were indeed required, so YMMV.

Yep, I only read the Gamespot and Eurogamer reviews, and they both mention that the reviewer was playing on medium difficulty, and then complain it wasn't very difficult. Go figure.

[constantine]

Bioware is all about the casual gamer, so in that basis, they are successful. Their stories are good & the final chapter of Dragon Age is much anticipated.

 

 

Not something I look forward to though, they are dead to me. But I can t deny they succeed in what they offer.