Thoughts from a casual gamer

[YunikoYokai5]

It is so jarringly difficult (on EASY setting!)

 

That is mostly because the difficulty has ramped up significantly between v301 and v333, making it more difficult than normal for that difficulty level as I understand it. Sensuki said that it's part of the 'halving and doubling' method of finding a difficulty level. Medreth has slaughtered me so many times on easy and I try to use positional tactics and opening AoE (although it's more difficult with one of your characters in the way). v301 was so easy I was extremely confused as to why I took down the ogre in the space of 20 seconds. And the Spider Queen after she nearly slaughtered me on the previous version. I am now at the point I am banging my head against a stone wall a little. 

 

But in general, I think this game needs a tutorial option (so experienced players don't need to do it) that leads you through a scripted battle that teaches you the importance of pausing, assigning tasks, position team members, actually taking the time to take you through what spells you priest and wizard have (this is my main and most frustrating cripe with the game just now. They flood you with spells) and other important aspects of combat. My first experience of combat back in v2-whatever it was nearly ended in a wipeout of my entire team since I didn't know how to pause, cast spells properly and was relying on 'Run in and pray it dies before you do'. 

 

Then again, this is my very first isometric RPG. The learning curve for new players is as steep as the Grand Canyon just now. 

[Sensuki]

You won't need a tutorial, if you've seen the E3 Preview of the intro of the game it basically is a tutorial area.

[Kjaamor]

That's bull**** man, and that's only because you think being able to move in melee is wrong/abuse. It's not. I also wasn't talking about rest-spamming, I was talking about abusing mass webs/cloudkills and **** for cheap wins.

 

Why is that bull**** other than your own subjective opinion?

 

So mass webs and cloudkills, then. It makes very little difference to the the point that without any hacking, the game enables and encourages you to do that. It also doesn't make pushing a Yuan-ti around with a Strength 6 Rogue because it wants to reach your wizard any less abusive.

[YunikoYokai5]

But I am also one of these people who likes to enter a game blind, as I did with the BB (never kept up with any of the updates, downloaded the BB and leapt two feet first without knowing what any of the classes were apart from a few etc). If the E3 video takes you through the intro/tutorial area then I'll wait to experience it myself. Call it shooting me in the foot, but I just prefer to dive into a game not knowing what's going to happen if the intro area explains how the play the game, then I'll be satisfied with that. It's my main reason that I haven't read anything/watched trailers for DA:I either. 

[Sensuki]

So mass webs and cloudkills, then. It makes very little difference to the the point that without any hacking, the game enables and encourages you to do that. It also doesn't make pushing a Yuan-ti around with a Strength 6 Rogue because it wants to reach your wizard any less abusive.

Cloudkill and Web spamming is rotten if you combine it with rest spamming, because those are per-rest abilities and you can only do so many of them per day. It's a pretty cheap way of winning though because it doesn't require you to do anything, you cast a spell, sit and wait for the enemies to die from DoT and that's it. I would call that cheap, boring and cowardly gameplay.

 

The Infinity Engine was produced from an isometric RTS engine and tactical movement is part of the heart and soul of the gameplay of the Infinity Engine games, whether that was intentional or not and whether you like it or not (it's clear that it's a not). I believe the designers ended up leveraging it with their encounter design. Blocking a Yuan-Ti with a 6 Strength rogue is unrealistic, but combat is an abstraction, it's not supposed to be realistic. In isometric titles (RT or TB) with collision systems - that is a part of the gameplay. Simulationist arguments as to why that should not be possible are not valid.

 

Unit blocking is also a valid tactic in turn-based. In Expeditions:Conquistador and the Banner saga, when some of my melee units get low I retreat them behind healthy characters and try and block the path to those enemies. The only difference is that it's not in real time so it happens once at a time.

 

It is a part of the gameplay of all games with this perspective where you can control multiple units and there is collision, and in pretty much all cases (particularly multiplayer) it is considered a skillful action.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Shevek]

Fyi, I just got a melee chanter with a reach weapon instead of a pally, even easier. Again, if the op wants to play passive, it is possible. I had to pause only a few times in the town fight. Very little against the beetles. The spiders were ok. I tank and spanked the ogre. All on normal. If you are hyper pausing on easy, you either made poor choices when crafting your party or you do not realize that max party size is 6 and you can recruit another at the inn.

[Shevek]

Sensuki:

 

I agree. The IE games did reward cheap gameplay. This game plays much more fairly and I feel much more rewarded when I win at it. That is why I am freaking baffled at people who seem to think that combat needs a drastic overhaul.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Shevek

[Sensuki]

There were people that said the last attribute system was fine, or that recovery time should be paused while moving too. Personally I think movement speed, per-hit damage and melee engagement are probably the biggest three issues at the moment. I'm not sure about action speed, I think that's worth leaving until later on to be looked at.

 

Like I said before, it's not difficult at all really (barring a few OP/broken enemies) but it's pretty boring IMO.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Kjaamor]

Cloudkill and Web spamming is rotten if you combine it with rest spamming, because those are per-rest abilities and you can only do so many of them per day. It's a pretty cheap way of winning though because it doesn't require you to do anything, you cast a spell, sit and wait for the enemies to die from DoT and that's it. I would call that cheap, boring and cowardly gameplay.

The Infinity Engine was produced from an isometric RTS engine and tactical movement is part of the heart and soul of the gameplay of the Infinity Engine games, whether that was intentional or not and whether you like it or not (it's clear that it's a not). I believe the designers ended up leveraging it with their encounter design. Blocking a Yuan-Ti with a 6 Strength rogue is unrealistic, but combat is an abstraction, it's not supposed to be realistic. In isometric titles (RT or TB) with collision systems - that is a part of the gameplay. Simulationist arguments as to why that should not be possible are not valid.

 

You speak as if I am somehow suggesting that Kiting and counter-kiting shouldn't exist. I'm not (and not even in the other thread where I'm actually arguing that PoE wanted to try something new and that should be allowed and improved rather than just reverting entirely to IE game mechanics). I'm simply pointing out that despite your cast-iron beliefs in it, there is nothing objectively more rich, exciting, and honourable by choosing to break the pathfinding rather than use the rest mechanic. I'd also point out that such behaviour is no more tactical than off-screen AoE spam is strategic.

 

(Also, for the record on resting, I advocated timed quests in order to prevent rest-spamming, until it became abundantly clear that 99% of players abhorred them)

[Sensuki]

I'm simply pointing out that despite your cast-iron beliefs in it, there is nothing objectively more rich, exciting, and honourable by choosing to break the pathfinding rather than use the rest mechanic.

Yeah there is (in the IE games) because enemies are actively responding to you, whereas if you cloudkill spam from off screen, they just stand there and die.

[Kjaamor]

But they're responding in a manner that also leaves them helpless and at a disadvantage that is no more intended than them being smashed off-screen by AoEs.

[Sensuki]

No it doesn't :/ You can see that in my videos in this thread, neither Yxunomei or Belhifet is helpless when I micro a character off them, they procede to mince the health from my other characters.

 

In Pillars of Eternity this is even more of a big deal because Health isn't (at least wasn't) recoverable, so any damage taken is a strategical resource cost for the party. Your party can remain functional for longer if you spread the damage around.

 

I think they should remove the health healing talents, tbh.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Shevek]

I just dont find it any more boring than any other RTwP rpg. If anything, I enjoy that more classes have stuff they can do if I want to bother myself to do it. The chanter enchants my weapons and sometimes I have him whip out a summon. The tank agros enemies and sometimes I use his knockdown. The rogue kills crap from afar and sometimes I use her dmg clicky. The barbarian kills crap and if he gets agroed I hit the endurance regen. The cypher shoots stuff and sometimes I have him charm. The only class thats a bit boring is the priest but interdiction is kinda cool so I took talents for that.

 

I built my guys passive and its working. I have tactical options I can use when I want them (I focus on buffing the per encounter ones). I can ignore the clickies when I dont want to be bothered or the fight doesnt warrant it.

 

I dunno. I dont find combat super chaotic as some folks say. I dont find it boring. It works. It keeps my attention. It rewards me for being active but it does not force me to on trash mobs.

 

Some minor tweaks to engagement (like lowering the dmg a smidge) or having dex affect movement (and calling it Agility) might be ok or they might not. The point is those are very minor tweaks. The system has good bones.

[Sensuki]

You're talking more about class design there, that's not really related to what I'm talking about. I too like that classes are more active and there's more stuff to do, but I hate that combat just descends into action, new action, action, new action and you don't have to move your characters around or really react to anything the enemies do after the initial combat movements. That's boring - and that's more how the bad RTwP RPGs play.

 

The best RTwP games are the Infinity Engine games and 7.62mm High Caliber. Aarklash Legacy attempts some interesting things but the game is ruined by the fact that characters only have four abilities and in each encounter you basically spam those abilities when they come off cooldown over and over and it becomes a repetitive HP bloat slog, but the tactical movement in it is great.

 

All the others - NWNs, KotORs, Dragon Age have notoriously bad combat IMO. This is an Infinity Engine successor, not a successor to those games.

 

Most games these days are either Action or Turn-based, there's very few RTwP and I think that's because the combat was so bad in the 3D Bioware and Obsidian titles that used them, that people find action combat more fun. It's a shame that that has happened and for once it would be nice if a game actually got it right again.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Kjaamor]

No it doesn't :/ You can see that in my videos in this thread, neither Yxunomei or Belhifet is helpless when I micro a character off them, they procede to mince the health from my other characters.

 

That it doesn't work all the time does not make it any less abusive when it does, any less than the fact that you can still use web and cloudkill in scripted (i.e. not off the screen) fights makes off-screen bombing abusive.

 

Show me a piece of IE gameplay where kiting is dangerous and exciting and I'll show you four where it's safe-as-houses and despite all those extra clicks is no more tactical than not punching yourself in the **** instead of using pause. Again, not that there is anything intrinsically wrong with that, but it is preposterous when you act holier-than-thou for using it over other tactics/strategies.

[Shevek]

Again, the IE games had pretty boring gameplay in my estimation. The class and ability design actually give this game a leg up in my view. Issues arising from combat mobility are relatively minor. I just dont see how running around in circles gulping potions would make combat more exciting. I am sure some relatively small numbers tweaks to engagement can make that possible though.

[Sensuki]

That it doesn't work all the time does not make it any less abusive when it does, any less than the fact that you can still use web and cloudkill in scripted (i.e. not off the screen) fights makes off-screen bombing abusive.

 

Show me a piece of IE gameplay where kiting is dangerous and exciting and I'll show you four where it's safe-as-houses and despite all those extra clicks is no more tactical than not punching yourself in the **** instead of using pause. Again, not that there is anything intrinsically wrong with that, but it is preposterous when you act holier-than-thou for using it over other tactics/strategies.

It would be nice if it was more exciting and the games had better AI, but it's way more enjoyable gameplay than what Pillars of Eternity has with the Melee Engagement system.

 

To make it look more exciting I'd probably have to install the Sword Coast Stratagems or the Tactics mod, or bump the game difficulty up to insane where monsters do double damage or whatever. Or make worse characters.

 

One of the things about the IE game difficulty is it had to accomodate for a wide range of character builds. Pillars of Eternity has made things at least a little bit more even keel I think, so technically they have more opportunity here to produce better gameplay than the IE games did. Like I said, I want to encounters on Hard to be designed around the use of tactical retreating.

 

They have some good headroom here to do some really interesting stuff if they design stickiness around the use of status-effect abilities, that's how other (good) real-time games handle that kind of stuff. Karkarov said that even World of Warcraft did that back in the Burning Crusade days.

 

Karkarov: well to give you an idea in WoW's first expansion a warrior tank spec could.... do single target stuns, single target spell cast interupts/temp silence, single target movement speed slows, melee aoe attack speed slows, reflect some spells on casters, charge moves, and aoe frontal cone stun

That's the kind of stuff I want to see, not bloody automatic free attacks just because you moved one pixel in the game.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Lord Wafflebum]

Heh, this got a bit off topic since I was last here. 

 

@Shevek: Since you're the most vocal against those of us that find this game overly difficult, I guess I have to ask you why you don't want casual gamers to have a more relaxed and easier experience? I believe you said you typically play on normal or hard, yes? All I want is for Easy difficulty to live up to its name. Be easy for those of us that don't want an overly challenging game. Frankly, opinions of difficulty (what I think is difficult vs. what you think is difficult) are going to suffer from relative perspectives. Also, as someone pointed out, I may be using difficulty and fun somewhat interchangeably. I'm essentially stating an opinion/preference I would like to see reflected in the game, and since my sentiments have been echoed by several others here it stands to reason that Easy difficulty could use some tweaking for us. Is that not what these forums are for?

 

@Sensuki: Thanks for the heads up on the Paladins. I didn't know they weren't working as intended. Maybe I'll try a fighter again and see if I can make any more progress that way...

[Sensuki]

You might be talking about a combination of both really. Games can be difficult and fun, games can be difficult and frustrating, games can be easy and fun and games can be easy and frustrating.

[Shevek]

Sensuki:

I dont think this game needs more active ability options. It has plenty. Passive attacks like engagement that reduce micromanagement and punish fool hardy running across the battlefield are fine in principle. Maybe they need to be tweaked a bit dmg wise but they arent some huge issue.

[Shevek]

Waffle:

1. I find normal to be pretty damn easy. I havent bothered with easy but if its easier than normal I dont what to tell you.

2. Super casual gamers may not be the target audience for this game. They stated as much during the kickstarter.

3. Sensuki also said the game was easy. He just doesnt think its fun. He wants more tactical depth. That generally means harder to master, fyi. Reread the thread.

[prodigydancer]

All the others - NWNs, KotORs, Dragon Age have notoriously bad combat IMO.

I disagree about Dragon Age combat. Just because it's rotation-based instead of resource-based doesn't make it bad. It felt different from IE games but I still enjoyed it greatly.

Edited November 9, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Lord Wafflebum]

@Shevek: My ability to comprehend words is just fine. Sensuki also admitted that due to the amount he has played the game his viewpoint might be skewed due to experience. I don't think I addressed my point clearly enough. Why are you so against Easy difficulty being changed to fit better for the casual gamer? It doesn't affect you! You don't play on Easy difficulty.

[Sensuki]

Sensuki:

I dont think this game needs more active ability options. It has plenty. Passive attacks like engagement that reduce micromanagement and punish fool hardy running across the battlefield are fine in principle. Maybe they need to be tweaked a bit dmg wise but they arent some huge issue.

Except the Melee Engagement system is flawed and horrible. It's not going to work, and it makes melee far too passive. Like I said, enemies won't act like the player, once they have determined their targets they will most likely not randomly move around and attack different people, as long as you position your tank(s) properly to begin with then you should be fine. Otherwise with passive/active sticky abilities there will be ways of mitigating that problem.

 

It likely won't make a lick of a difference in how you play if you prefer passively standing there auto attacking.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sensuki]

I disagree about Dragon Age combat. Just because it's rotation-based instead of resource-based doesn't make it bad. It felt different from IE games but I still enjoyed it greatly.

I didn't like it, but it's probably better than Pillars of Eternity at the moment. At least it required me to do some things after the opening even if those things involved Warrior: KNOCKDOWN! TAUNT! KNOCKDOWN! TAUNT! KNOCKDOWN! TAUNT! and stuff like that ~_~. Unfortunately the game was designed around pretty repetitive actions. I generally knew what my next five queues in the action queue were going to be lol ... that's pretty banal to me.

 

Aarklash Legacy would be better if enemies didn't have so much HP bloat.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Sensuki