Dear Obsidian, What really needs to be fixed is not XP...

[Captain Shrek]

 

Also, I get no pleasure from repetitive combat.

Define repetitive combat.

 

I would argue that a game that offers 11 classes, a leveling system that goes from 1-12, and a vast bestiary would, at the very least, not suffer from such a problem, assuming it manages decent encounter placement and design. It's too early to tell with PoE. The beta is too short for a judgment call on this particular issue.

 

I will say this though. There most definitely is such a thing as too much story. When everything is a drama, and everything is tied to a story, you're not doing it right. You're f*cking up the gameflow/pacing just as much as any storyless dungeon crawler does. There's *got* to be a balance between the two, otherwise you'll just cause players to suffer from either narrative fatigue or combat boredom.

 

 

 

Why define something that can be demonstrated?  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaz03ZqzyTE#t=292

 

Enjoy. 

 

Also, too much story is never bad. Or maybe I never had that game where it was. Of course, you could have terrible writing and then it is not a question of too much or too little. Deus Ex is pretty much the game I would say that has almost everything as a plot and it was awesome. 

[PrimeJunta]

I am not saying that. I am just confused that this irrelevant issue has so much relevance that the devs actually decided to change it. Also, there is nothing unreasonable about an XP-less system. Darklands did it, so did Elder scrolls. The former is a game that this one supposedly (lol) takes inspiration from.

 

Not butthurt about XP. Riiiight...

 

Interestingly, these games have a better progression system because: 1) It makes more sense 2) It is actually easier to balance by simply selecting how many instances of a particular skill are allowed in a game. This is, of course, under the reasonable assumption that you can't  Jump like an idiot to improve athletics a la Morrowind.

Do you have a cRPG in mind with a learn-by-doing system that doesn't lead to relentless skill-grinding? Both TES and Darklands certainly do.

[Monte Carlo]

Also, too much story is never bad.

 

That's so badly wrong I don't even know where to start.

 

The fact that there's 'too much' immediately suggests a negative. You can have too much ice cream or pizza or beer... all of that will make you feel sick. A story is like the porridge in the three bears, you can have too much, too little and (that elusive) 'just right.' If your preference is a sadomasochistic level of story then good luck to you but it doesn't mean you're right.

 

In a game this is critical - look at Diablo for example. You can take the story or leave it. If you care about the lore of Sanctuary then wow, there's stacks of it. If you want to kill demons and click on books for XP you can do that too. The story is efficacious for the type of game it seeks to be.

 

On the other end of the axis is Torment. Not my cup of tea, but lots of people here rave about it. For some people that's the ideal level of story and it works for the type of game MCA set out to make.

 

Do you see where I'm going here? Like the porridge in the Three Bears POE needs to be broadly in the middle of these. It needs to engage but not smother, elicit interest but not demand herculean commitment to understanding the lore (unless you feel the need to).

 

So yes, you can have too much story. You really, really can.

[Captain Shrek]

 

I am not saying that. I am just confused that this irrelevant issue has so much relevance that the devs actually decided to change it. Also, there is nothing unreasonable about an XP-less system. Darklands did it, so did Elder scrolls. The former is a game that this one supposedly (lol) takes inspiration from.

 

Not butthurt about XP. Riiiight...

 

Interestingly, these games have a better progression system because: 1) It makes more sense 2) It is actually easier to balance by simply selecting how many instances of a particular skill are allowed in a game. This is, of course, under the reasonable assumption that you can't  Jump like an idiot to improve athletics a la Morrowind.

Do you have a cRPG in mind with a learn-by-doing system that doesn't lead to relentless skill-grinding? Both TES and Darklands certainly do.

 

 

Eh? You seem to be intent to put words in my mouth. I don't care what the XP mechanics is. I just gave an opinion to your erratic thinking that XP less games are confusing. Please enjoy your butthurt elsewhere.  

 

Do you have a cRPG in mind with a learn-by-doing system that doesn't lead to relentless skill-grinding? Both TES and Darklands certainly do.

 

 

 

Also, apparently you can't read. Maybe you should try and see that I already criticised "skill grinding" in the psot you are quotimg? 

 

Also, too much story is never bad.

 

That's so badly wrong I don't even know where to start.

 

The fact that there's 'too much' immediately suggests a negative. You can have too much ice cream or pizza or beer... all of that will make you feel sick. A story is like the porridge in the three bears, you can have too much, too little and (that elusive) 'just right.' If your preference is a sadomasochistic level of story then good luck to you but it doesn't mean you're right.

 

In a game this is critical - look at Diablo for example. You can take the story or leave it. If you care about the lore of Sanctuary then wow, there's stacks of it. If you want to kill demons and click on books for XP you can do that too. The story is efficacious for the type of game it seeks to be.

 

On the other end of the axis is Torment. Not my cup of tea, but lots of people here rave about it. For some people that's the ideal level of story and it works for the type of game MCA set out to make.

 

Do you see where I'm going here? Like the porridge in the Three Bears POE needs to be broadly in the middle of these. It needs to engage but not smother, elicit interest but not demand herculean commitment to understanding the lore (unless you feel the need to).

 

So yes, you can have too much story. You really, really can.

 

 

Too much story does not mean no combat. I kind of see what you are thinking. You are thinking that I do not care about combat and just want the story. Well, not really. I have just given up on the combat in this game. For several reasons actually. But that does not mean that it can not at least use that well and not become another NWN/NWN2/IWD2 trash fest. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Captain Shrek

[Stun]

Why define something that can be demonstrated?  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaz03ZqzyTE#t=292

 

Enjoy.

Um...ok. The Eye-gouger lair in NWN2? That doesn't tell us anything, Except maybe it demonstrates how off the mark your arguments are. NWN2 is a ridiculously story-heavy game, and interestingly, this still doesn't prevent its combat from sucking ass in almost every way imaginable. Eliminate 90% of NWN2's combat, and nothing changes.

 

Also, too much story is never bad. Or maybe I never had that game where it was.

Check Bioware. They're getting there. The Dragon Age Series comes to mind. Again, Everything is a drama. And that causes Narrative fatigue. I tried doing another playthrough of DA:O a few months ago. I got about Halfway through then quit. not because the combat bored me (it didn't. it's the best thing about the game), but because I entered Orzammar and immediately remembered the thick, syrupy drama the player must endure to get through that giant section of the game. I then put the game down and fired up BG1 for no reason but to head out to the wilderness and start killing hobgoblins and wolves for the light hearted fun of it. Edited October 13, 2014 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

@Captain Shrek Yes, you did criticize skill-grinding. However, you failed to provide an example of a learn-by-doing game that's not skill-grindy. The two you mentioned certainly are.

 

IMO your proposed solution (severely limit the opportunities for skill use) doesn't sound like much fun, and I fail to see its advantages compared to plain ol' hand-placed quest/objective XP. So I was curious if you know of a game that actually did it that way and succeeded at being fun. Armchair design will only get you so far, you know.

[Captain Shrek]

 

Why define something that can be demonstrated?  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaz03ZqzyTE#t=292

 

Enjoy.

Um...ok. The Eye-gouger lair in NWN2? That doesn't tell us anything, Except maybe it demonstrates how off the mark your arguments are. NWN2 is a ridiculously story-heavy game, and interestingly, this still doesn't prevent its combat from sucking ass in almost every way imaginable. Eliminate 90% of NWN2's combat, and nothing changes.

 

Also, too much story is never bad. Or maybe I never had that game where it was.

Check Bioware. They're getting there.

 

 

Stun. Dude, its like you are ignoring what I am saying bro. 

 

I am saying this:

 

1) Too much of "Good" story is not bad at all. Check the post you quoted earlier. It is *there*. Very very explicitly.

2) This is not equivalent to saying that Too much of good story == bad combat. How does that even make sense? Also, why would I (or anyone else for that matter) *demand* bad combat?

3 )The problem with NWN2 was NOT bad mechanics per se, Well *bad mechanics* was also a problem (resting everywhere, bad AI) but the biggest problem was the encounter design. Too much trash, too much magic, broken economy etc. 

@Captain Shrek Yes, you did criticize skill-grinding. However, you failed to provide an example of a learn-by-doing game that's not skill-grindy. The two you mentioned certainly are.

 

IMO your proposed solution (severely limit the opportunities for skill use) doesn't sound like much fun, and I fail to see its advantages compared to plain ol' hand-placed quest/objective XP. So I was curious if you know of a game that actually did it that way and succeeded at being fun. Armchair design will only get you so far, you know.

Nice moving goalposts there. First you realized you were wrong. And now your argument is "oh noes!!! But limiting is NOT FUNs! Well, I don't profess to know. I never played a game where they did it well. But at least I am willing to find out. But that hardly is the point. You are basically trying to bait me and this will be at an end if you keep posting your bull****. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Captain Shrek

[PrimeJunta]

@Captain Shrek no moving goalposts here, just expanding on the reasons for my original request ("Do you have a cRPG in mind with a learn-by-doing system that doesn't lead to relentless skill-grinding? Both TES and Darklands certainly do.")

 

Again, I asked because I can see a number of serious problems with your proposed solution, and was curious if you knew of a game that had actually pulled it off.

 

Since you don't and were speaking purely theoretically, I have no further questions. Thank you for your time.

[Stun]

1) Too much of "Good" story is not bad at all. Check the post you quoted earlier. It is *there*. Very very explicitly.

2) This is not equivalent to saying that Too much of good story == bad combat. How does that even make sense? Also, why would I (or anyone else for that matter) *demand* bad combat?

3 )The problem with NWN2 was NOT bad mechanics per se, Well *bad mechanics* was also a problem (resting everywhere, bad AI) but the biggest problem was the encounter design. Too much trash, too much magic, broken economy etc.

Aah. Ok. We have a language misunderstanding here. We're talking over each other.

 

You're describing things in terms of "good" and "bad", while I'm describing things as "right" and "wrong". I would never argue that too much story (or too much combat) is "bad" because that would be silly. Some people enjoy playing movie/combat simulators. I'm arguing that too much story is *wrong* for a game like PoE, because that is not the game design philosophy behind its spiritual successors (the IE games). Even planescape torment managed to separate the bulk of its combat from its narrative. (It allowed players to take a break from the drama and just go out and kill things for the sake of killing them and nothing else (Modron cube, Undersigil, Baator, + everything respawns etc.) And of course, the Icewind Dales and the Baldurs Gate games balanced the two gameplay types marvelously.

 

 

Again, its too early to tell how PoE is going to pan out on this issue, but I suspect it's going to feel closer to the BG games in terms of narrative ties to combat....but you apparently don't want this.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Stun

[Captain Shrek]

Frankly speaking, probably I am the odd one out here. I did not particularly enjoy IE non-magic combat at all. I was more fond of the mage battles. They were fun to explore and counter and actually gave you a sense of tactics, even if briefly. The rest was frantic RTwP which I feel, personally ie best replaced by Turn based. 

 

I am hardly against combat. I just like it better when it is implemented the way its meant to be played in the first place. 

[Monte Carlo]

 

Why define something that can be demonstrated?  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaz03ZqzyTE#t=292

 

Enjoy.

Um...ok. The Eye-gouger lair in NWN2? That doesn't tell us anything, Except maybe it demonstrates how off the mark your arguments are. NWN2 is a ridiculously story-heavy game, and interestingly, this still doesn't prevent its combat from sucking ass in almost every way imaginable. Eliminate 90% of NWN2's combat, and nothing changes.

 

Also, too much story is never bad. Or maybe I never had that game where it was.

Check Bioware. They're getting there. The Dragon Age Series comes to mind. Again, Everything is a drama. And that causes Narrative fatigue. I tried doing another playthrough of DA:O a few months ago. I got about Halfway through then quit. not because the combat bored me (it didn't. it's the best thing about the game), but because I entered Orzammar and immediately remembered the thick, syrupy drama the player must endure to get through that giant section of the game. I then put the game down and fired up BG1 for no reason but to head out to the wilderness and start killing hobgoblins and wolves for the light hearted fun of it.

 

 

You're my brother by a different mother.

[Doppelschwert]

*sigh*

 

I do NOT hate "dungeon crawling". I just like it when the combat mechanics is itself tactical. In PoE it is not. Also, I get no pleasure from repetitive combat. If you do, maybe you should be playing Diablo? Also, there is an entire separate building in PoE that allows us to do that. Those who think that cutting out the trash mobs is a bad idea are welcome to spend hours there satisfying their urges. 

 

Which separate building would that be?

It certainly won't be the megadungeon, as it will have puzzles and other stuff besides combat.

[prodigydancer]

The TC needs to understand that if all video games followed the same design document they would all be clones of Pong.

 

Age of Decadence has some very ambitious goals be so does PoE. Those are different goals but that's how you enhance a genre and ultimately set higher standards - through having your own unique vision, through trial and error. I doubt that AoD or PoE will be perfect. But they both have potential to become great games. Being different from each other doesn't inherently diminish either of them.

 

And, dear TC, again and again - you TB fans have a lot of new games already. SO PLEASE DO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE, RTWP FANS, EXIST AND DESERVE TO HAVE GAMES THAT SUIT OUR TASTES.

 

(Caps intended because I'm really, really sick of TB fans coming here and telling me how PoE would be better if it was TB. I played dozens of TB games and I don't like TB. At this point I'm pretty certain I'll never like TB. Sorry.)

Edited October 15, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Lephys]

Tuberculosis is pretty horrible. I don't think anyone likes it.

[Captain Shrek]

Also, there seems to be some kind of weird misunderstanding here:

 

There is NOTHING fundamentally wrong with RTwP as such, as long as it is not  a party based game with a lot of options. Even with a party I have seem RTwP having being done okay-ish by other developers.

 

1) River of time 

2) DA:O

 

RoT is probably the best party based  RtwP game I ever played. DA:O was enjoyable, but it had trash mobs and it eventually failed to supply complexity in mechanics compared to the length of the game. i.e. it got boring midway. 

 

The good thing about them was that the combat was paced slower. That one element made handling the game much more convenient.  RoT is practically 2-3 times more complicated than PoE but was a much better game as it delivered on the combat front. 

 

On the other hand, NWN1 had terrible encounters and a VERY slow paced story, but still was an AMAZING game as demonstrated by several modules. Even NWN2, with its terrible combat pacing, was ana amazing experience if you played it with modules having just one party member. NWN1/2 with TB would have been way way better games because the underlying mechanics IS TB. And I would find it laughable to argue that PoE is NOT inspired heavily from TB game mechanics. PoE would MOST definitely only benefit from TB combat. 

 

 

The point here is that the OP is not about RTwP at all, although it could be argued that TB would serve the game better. But rather the point is, that the overall game enjoyment could be offset by adding good CONTENT where ever the combat can not salvage it. 

Edited October 15, 2014 by Captain Shrek