The quests/lore/writing in the beta - likes and dislikes

[Sensuki]

Since they are doing a Karma Police review now, why don't you ask them about it ? (IE, send a dev a PM, or ask Josh on tumblr).

[archangel979]

We would hope they also read topics like this one. Quests/story making sense is worth more than any mechanics changes. I would like people to take a nice comb and go through as many quests in beta and report possible problems and inconsistencies. I managed to find one within 15 minutes of watching someone's Lets play. Unfortunately I don't have access to beta to be able to check other quests. 

Edited October 21, 2014 by archangel979

[Sensuki]

@archangel979 have you had a look at the other options available in the dialogue files?

[archangel979]

I just said I don't have beta access. Unless you want me to pirate the beta (not sure if it is even possible) I cannot do that. And I don't plan to watch all lets plays and read all conversations to check all quests. It is easy to check out combat or mechanics through streams or lets plays but for quests I would need to be able to play the game and try all options to find strange options (or lack of those).

[Sensuki]

Oh right, sorry I missed that. I checked the file for you - no option to knock her out is there. Seems like a good point you have though.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Sensuki

[Elerond]

I am not sure if there is a topic about quests but maybe this one can do.

I just watched on youtube the quest where you confront cultists and you only get two choices: let the girl go or kill her. That is not right. Where is knock her out option?!

Then take her unconcious back to Lord and decide there what to do with her.

 

There is more option to deal with girl, but some them are class specific and some depend on your attributes and skills.

 

As cipher you can wipe girls mind somewhat clean so that she don't remember that his father sexually abuse her and you can convince her to go back to him or you can tell her truth or something else. 

With high enough lore and intellect you can understand what is going in the ritual, which gives you more options

You can let cultist finish with ritual and let girl go back to her Lord father as double agent (then you can reveal that fact to Lord so that he can decide what to do and even persuade him to take her to animancer in Defiance Bay so that they can search cure)

And some other options

So there is more than two options to handle that quest, but those options aren't necessary always open as you haven't find necessary information to unlock them or you don't have high enough attributes/skill or you have wrong class.

 

But there is probably options that you as player would want to do/say but game don't offer corresponding option.

[archangel979]

The was it is presented is #1 Kill the girl by automatically snapping her neck or #2 Let her go back and as far as you know she will probably kill the lord by the time you get there (actually that would be the expected outcome of letting her go in case you want her to kill him).

 

#3 option for all classes is sorely lacking here. If players can automatically snap her neck, they can also automatically knock her out and then taking her back to Lord could be counted as if you talked to Lord about it after letting her go (like you described).

[Elerond]

The was it is presented is #1 Kill the girl by automatically snapping her neck or #2 Let her go back and as far as you know she will probably kill the lord by the time you get there (actually that would be the expected outcome of letting her go in case you want her to kill him).

 

#3 option for all classes is sorely lacking here. If players can automatically snap her neck, they can also automatically knock her out and then taking her back to Lord could be counted as if you talked to Lord about it after letting her go (like you described).

 

In that case there is three option, let girl go back (and when you go back to lord you will find him alive and well and girl next to him and you can decide do you tell about ritual to lord or not and so on) nap girl's neck and kill cultist. Option three is not directly shown to player, but if you kill cultists without killing girl it is possible to reverse ritual (all options to this path aren't open in beta).

 

Knocking girl down and letting her go to lord are effectively same as cultist are already cast their spell on her and she don't kill lord before you get to tell him/not tell him about ritual. Although letting player knock her down and carry her to lord would add flavor option for those players who want be bit more brutal in how they handle situations, but consequence wise there would be next to nothing difference to current options. 

[Bryy]

 

The writing is top notch. I cannot get over how the nobles explain the class divide.

Maybe it is, but logical quest options seem to be missing.

 

I agree quest dialogue is a bit wonky and "gamey". It might help if dialogue options were to be separated between "asked" and "have not asked".

[archangel979]

 

The was it is presented is #1 Kill the girl by automatically snapping her neck or #2 Let her go back and as far as you know she will probably kill the lord by the time you get there (actually that would be the expected outcome of letting her go in case you want her to kill him).

 

#3 option for all classes is sorely lacking here. If players can automatically snap her neck, they can also automatically knock her out and then taking her back to Lord could be counted as if you talked to Lord about it after letting her go (like you described).

 

In that case there is three option, let girl go back (and when you go back to lord you will find him alive and well and girl next to him and you can decide do you tell about ritual to lord or not and so on) nap girl's neck and kill cultist. Option three is not directly shown to player, but if you kill cultists without killing girl it is possible to reverse ritual (all options to this path aren't open in beta).

 

Knocking girl down and letting her go to lord are effectively same as cultist are already cast their spell on her and she don't kill lord before you get to tell him/not tell him about ritual. Although letting player knock her down and carry her to lord would add flavor option for those players who want be bit more brutal in how they handle situations, but consequence wise there would be next to nothing difference to current options.

 

No, you misunderstand. The way the conversation goes the player is led to believe if you let the girl go she will get there and kill the Lord. You don't know if you can get back in time to do anything about it. At that point in time, knocking her out is only normal response that does not involve making a hard choice (let girl kill lord or kill girl).

As I was watching that conversation with the Let's Play person we both got the same impression. The youtuber chose to kill the girl to prevent her from killing the Lord.

 

The options are presented in a bad way to players, that it why I am asking for the knock out option to be able to resolve this situation without killing the girl or the lord.

[Elerond]

 

 

The was it is presented is #1 Kill the girl by automatically snapping her neck or #2 Let her go back and as far as you know she will probably kill the lord by the time you get there (actually that would be the expected outcome of letting her go in case you want her to kill him).

 

#3 option for all classes is sorely lacking here. If players can automatically snap her neck, they can also automatically knock her out and then taking her back to Lord could be counted as if you talked to Lord about it after letting her go (like you described).

 

In that case there is three option, let girl go back (and when you go back to lord you will find him alive and well and girl next to him and you can decide do you tell about ritual to lord or not and so on) nap girl's neck and kill cultist. Option three is not directly shown to player, but if you kill cultists without killing girl it is possible to reverse ritual (all options to this path aren't open in beta).

 

Knocking girl down and letting her go to lord are effectively same as cultist are already cast their spell on her and she don't kill lord before you get to tell him/not tell him about ritual. Although letting player knock her down and carry her to lord would add flavor option for those players who want be bit more brutal in how they handle situations, but consequence wise there would be next to nothing difference to current options.

 

No, you misunderstand. The way the conversation goes the player is led to believe if you let the girl go she will get there and kill the Lord. You don't know if you can get back in time to do anything about it. At that point in time, knocking her out is only normal response that does not involve making a hard choice (let girl kill lord or kill girl).

As I was watching that conversation with the Let's Play person we both got the same impression. The youtuber chose to kill the girl to prevent her from killing the Lord.

 

The options are presented in a bad way to players, that it why I am asking for the knock out option to be able to resolve this situation without killing the girl or the lord.

 

 

I didn't get that urgency from the writing, as cultist leader rambles how girl will slowly kill lord and rest of his family 

 

Cultist leader: "I do not wish to destroy Nestor Harond. I wish to end his entire rotten line. His name will become a curse among strangers. The deeds of his house will be eclipsed by his ruin. Foes will hear his name and shudder with pity, and any relatives who should survive him will abandon their fortunes just to rid themselves of the association."

 

He nods. "Return to Dyrford above and see that Harond continues onward with her. Neither of us shall witness Aelys' vengeance, but if all goes as planned, the whole of the Dyrwood will hear of it." He nudges the young woman forward.

 

but as I said girl will not kill lord before you get back so knocking her down option would work only as flavor version if added, as it would not change any consequences that quest has. But of course there is nothing wrong in flavor options as they give player ability to respond more on their liking.

[archangel979]

What you quoted sounds just like I said, like you need to stop her from getting to him. Maybe it is because English is not my first language or because games so far have taught us that letting the girl go would result in death before we can stop it.

Why would a player's character risk it even? You don't even know exactly what are her plans, as far as we know she will poison him immediately with slow acting poison. The game presents you will two options, it is normal to assume that the one that does not kill her will let her accomplish her task. 

 

Put yourself in the shoes of your character there. That is how I did it, as a GM of countless groups for about 17 years I just imagined what many of my players would do or did in similar situations with their characters and they sure as hell would not let her go unless they wanted her to kill the Lord. 

And then the game presents you with automatic death of girl without a chance of failure. If my character can do that, he can also automatically knock her out as that is a logical course of action if you don't want to kill her or let her go to do who knows what before you get back there. 

[Elerond]

What you quoted sounds just like I said, like you need to stop her from getting to him. Maybe it is because English is not my first language or because games so far have taught us that letting the girl go would result in death before we can stop it.

Why would a player's character risk it even? You don't even know exactly what are her plans, as far as we know she will poison him immediately with slow acting poison. The game presents you will two options, it is normal to assume that the one that does not kill her will let her accomplish her task. 

 

Put yourself in the shoes of your character there. That is how I did it, as a GM of countless groups for about 17 years I just imagined what many of my players would do or did in similar situations with their characters and they sure as hell would not let her go unless they wanted her to kill the Lord. 

And then the game presents you with automatic death of girl without a chance of failure. If my character can do that, he can also automatically knock her out as that is a logical course of action if you don't want to kill her or let her go to do who knows what before you get back there. 

 

Player character know is that point of conversation that Lord has abused the girl and lied about who girl is and that he is quite disgusting person overall, so I would question more why player character would care if she immediately will kill/poison/whatever the Lord, especially when player still knows that they have time to collect reward from the lord?

[archangel979]

 

What you quoted sounds just like I said, like you need to stop her from getting to him. Maybe it is because English is not my first language or because games so far have taught us that letting the girl go would result in death before we can stop it.

Why would a player's character risk it even? You don't even know exactly what are her plans, as far as we know she will poison him immediately with slow acting poison. The game presents you will two options, it is normal to assume that the one that does not kill her will let her accomplish her task. 

 

Put yourself in the shoes of your character there. That is how I did it, as a GM of countless groups for about 17 years I just imagined what many of my players would do or did in similar situations with their characters and they sure as hell would not let her go unless they wanted her to kill the Lord. 

And then the game presents you with automatic death of girl without a chance of failure. If my character can do that, he can also automatically knock her out as that is a logical course of action if you don't want to kill her or let her go to do who knows what before you get back there. 

 

Player character know is that point of conversation that Lord has abused the girl and lied about who girl is and that he is quite disgusting person overall, so I would question more why player character would care if she immediately will kill/poison/whatever the Lord, especially when player still knows that they have time to collect reward from the lord?

 

Some player will not care, others will want to roleplay a good guy that does not allow murder. 

And players at that point don't know what happens if you let the girl go. You know because you played that part already. 

 

I came into this topic as a person that didn't know what happens later and the person I watched on Youtube didn't as well. We both assumed letting the girl go would kill the Lord or something else terrible will happen. The Youtuber decided to kill the girl to prevent that. I noticed that if players can automatically succeed killing the girl they should automatically succeed in knocking her out as that is what a good person would do to avoid OR RISK any more unneeded deaths. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by archangel979

[Elerond]

 

 

What you quoted sounds just like I said, like you need to stop her from getting to him. Maybe it is because English is not my first language or because games so far have taught us that letting the girl go would result in death before we can stop it.

Why would a player's character risk it even? You don't even know exactly what are her plans, as far as we know she will poison him immediately with slow acting poison. The game presents you will two options, it is normal to assume that the one that does not kill her will let her accomplish her task. 

 

Put yourself in the shoes of your character there. That is how I did it, as a GM of countless groups for about 17 years I just imagined what many of my players would do or did in similar situations with their characters and they sure as hell would not let her go unless they wanted her to kill the Lord. 

And then the game presents you with automatic death of girl without a chance of failure. If my character can do that, he can also automatically knock her out as that is a logical course of action if you don't want to kill her or let her go to do who knows what before you get back there. 

 

Player character know is that point of conversation that Lord has abused the girl and lied about who girl is and that he is quite disgusting person overall, so I would question more why player character would care if she immediately will kill/poison/whatever the Lord, especially when player still knows that they have time to collect reward from the lord?

 

Some player will not care, others will want to roleplay a good guy that does not allow murder. 

And players at that point don't know what happens if you let the girl go. You know because you played that part already. 

 

I came into this topic as a person that didn't know what happens later and the person I watched on Youtube didn't as well. We both assumed letting the girl go would kill the Lord or something else terrible will happen. The Youtuber decided to kill the girl to prevent that. I noticed that if players can automatically succeed killing the girl they should automatically succeed in knocking her out as that is what a good person would do to avoid OR RISK any more unneeded deaths. 

 

 

Player and character know in that point of time that animancer has made girl so that she will kill lord after they have left from Dyrford and as girl don't get enough head start to give Lord and his retinue to leave from Dyrford before player's party gets there. So from player's character perspective it is quite save let girl go regardless of what they plan to do for lord. Of course player maybe confused if they haven't read all the text and journal updates thoroughly. 

 

I am not sure if good person who wants avoid unneeded death would knock girl down before the cultist, because that would cause confrontation with them and risk girls life, as knocking people out is quite risky business as is fight over their unconscious body especially with bunch of magic users, who don't regard girls life very high. In my opinion such option needs more ruthless character that don't really care about people than good character that don't want anybody to die (like for example niece raping pedophile lord that tries to make sure that said niece and her part of family will not take over family's heritage over his blood)

[archangel979]

You don't know that at the moment. You know what they said, but you don't know how they will do it, when exactly and what they programmed the girl to do in case their and her plans are discovered. As far as you know you just sent her to stick a knife in his throat immediately upon arrival. Getting killed by his niece is already a much bigger thing than just being killed by a random person.
You are still using here your knowledge of the whole quest to present your point.

As for knocking her out in front of them causing them to fight you, that is the point. Just like killing her causes them to fight you, but you also try to save her life. And you are right that it is risky as she might die during spellcasting battles.

And as a result I change my suggestion into: If you knock her out at end of battle you find her dead with a description similar to what you said. It is good that quests have options where player plans don't always end up as expected.
But, add another conversation option for high enough Stealth skill where you let the girl go but send one party member unnoticed after her to knock her out. Then if you decide to fight these guys you got one guy less for the fight (maybe the door closes behind you and that person is on the other side of the door).
And also keep the current option of just letting her go as normal for the people that want to roleplay those that want the girl to finish her mission or those don't want her but are less wise about the risks.

As for what good people would do here, that is a conversation for another topic/post.

Edited October 22, 2014 by archangel979

[Elerond]

You don't know that at the moment. You know what they said, but you don't know how they will do it, when exactly and what they programmed the girl to do in case their and her plans are discovered. As far as you know you just sent her to stick a knife in his throat immediately upon arrival. Getting killed by his niece is already a much bigger thing than just being killed by a random person.

You are still using here your knowledge of the whole quest to present your point.

 

As for knocking her out in front of them causing them to fight you, that is the point. Just like killing her causes them to fight you, but you also try to save her life. And you are right that it is risky as she might die during spellcasting battles.

 

And as a result I change my suggestion into: If you knock her out at end of battle you find her dead with a description similar to what you said. It is good that quests have options where player plans don't always end up as expected.

But, add another conversation option for high enough Stealth skill where you let the girl go but send one party member unnoticed after her to knock her out. Then if you decide to fight these guys you got one guy less for the fight (maybe the door closes behind you and that person is on the other side of the door).

And also keep the current option of just letting her go as normal for the people that want to roleplay those that want the girl to finish her mission or those don't want her but are less wise about the risks.

 

As for what good people would do here, that is a conversation for another topic/post.

 

As far as you character knows cultist have planned to make girl as their inside puppet in the family (because that is only information they give you about their plans), otherwise you try to guess if they have lied to you or if they try to deceive you, but I would argue that such thoughts aren't thoughts that character who is worried for the girl would have. Especially when you in that point of time know that lord has lied you about who the girl is and that girl was pregnant for the lord and that girl tried to run away from the lord and so on details.

 

As I said that I think that your character has to be quite ruthless if they think that they can knock down girl and kill cultists so that they will not put girl in more danger than what you would put that lord if you let girl go. And I would also argue that character may not be the most good spirited person if they put safety of that lord front of safety of that girl.  

 

Put still end of day knocking her down using stealth to take her "safe" (although I am not sure how well that kind thing would work with their conversation system) will only work as way to add flavor in the conversation, but would not actually change consequences of the quest. But as I said I think that it would be okay to add such options in the conversations (I only argued that in my opinion such options would have different flavor in them than what you described) 

 

I would also point out that letting girl go or killing her aren't only out come options in that conversation, but they are probably most default ones.

[archangel979]

As far as you character knows cultist have planned to make girl as their inside puppet in the family (because that is only information they give you about their plans), otherwise you try to guess if they have lied to you or if they try to deceive you, but I would argue that such thoughts aren't thoughts that character who is worried for the girl would have. Especially when you in that point of time know that lord has lied you about who the girl is and that girl was pregnant for the lord and that girl tried to run away from the lord and so on details.

That is just another reason to not let her go back in this condition alone.

 

As I said that I think that your character has to be quite ruthless if they think that they can knock down girl and kill cultists so that they will not put girl in more danger than what you would put that lord if you let girl go. And I would also argue that character may not be the most good spirited person if they put safety of that lord front of safety of that girl.

Your characters might be confident that they can deal with both and come out on top as victors. It has nothing to do with being ruthless.

And you put safety of everyone in front, lord and girl, by doing it this way. It does not mean you put Lord before the girl, you are saving the girl as much here by not letting her leave. What if she murders him and remembers it, she will be mentally damaged for life. What she gone through in Animancer experiments is already bad.

A good person will not let the victim come close to her abuser, especially after a group of crazies did magical experiments on her. A Chaotic good would just take her away and a lawful good would look to bring down the lord through laws. None would look to murder the Lord unless in self defense or to defend life of other innocents.

 

I would also point out that letting girl go or killing her aren't only out come options in that conversation, but they are probably most default ones.

Other outcomes are class locked, while the ones available to all are lacking.

[GrinningReaper659]

Everyone keeps saying that if you can snap her neck, then surely you can just knock her out instead just as easily, but I'm not so sure about that. It seems like it would take a considerably precise application of force to render her unconscious without killing her -- not to mention the fact that she may very well regain consciousness during your fight with the cultist leader and leave anyway, or die during the fight if you use too much force... I mean, what is your fighter doing here that makes it so easy? Is he knocking her in the head with a blunt weapon, giving her a solid upercut? Either way, there's plenty of room for error on either side of unconsciousness. I'd say that just knocking her out for the duration of your battle shouldn't be open to everyone even if it were an option, and even then should involve some risk that she'll regain consciousness or die.

[archangel979]

Snapping a neck just like that takes practice and knowhow. Anyone having that, also can easily make someone unconscious by knocking them on the head of taking away their oxygen. And it is not precise science, and our characters are heroes.

The point of my comment was that if you can snap a neck with 100% success with that NPC not being able to get away she will not get away from being knocked out.

Edited October 23, 2014 by archangel979

[Elerond]

Snapping a neck just like that takes practice and knowhow. Anyone having that, also can easily make someone unconscious by knocking them on the head of taking away their oxygen. And it is not precise science, and our characters are heroes.

The point of my comment was that if you can snap a neck with 100% success with that NPC not being able to get away she will not get away from being knocked out.

 

Making someone unconscious by knocking them in head is actually quite difficult thing to do and and to cause person to lose their consciousness by oxygen deprivation one needs to block their airways for over minute or two.

 

"[Lunge for Aelys and break her neck.]" is much easier and faster to do especially when target of the attack don't resist. But one could argue that there should still be some sort attribute check.

[archangel979]

 

Snapping a neck just like that takes practice and knowhow. Anyone having that, also can easily make someone unconscious by knocking them on the head of taking away their oxygen. And it is not precise science, and our characters are heroes.

The point of my comment was that if you can snap a neck with 100% success with that NPC not being able to get away she will not get away from being knocked out.

 

Making someone unconscious by knocking them in head is actually quite difficult thing to do and and to cause person to lose their consciousness by oxygen deprivation one needs to block their airways for over minute or two.

 

"[Lunge for Aelys and break her neck.]" is much easier and faster to do especially when target of the attack don't resist. But one could argue that there should still be some sort attribute check.

 

Not in movies. Fantasy RPGs are cinematic experience, not realistic because half the mechanics would not work then.

[Sensuki]

I'm with Elerond here tbh.

[Lephys]

I think it's reasonable to say that the design of any given situation in an RPG should be approached with the thought: "What are the various actions a person could feasibly take here?"

 

I'm with archangel in that, especially in a situation as significant as that one, you'd think a pretty high-onthe-list option for a given type of person would be "I don't want to let this girl run off in her current state, but I also don't want to kill her," regardless of whether or not you feel any sympathy for the lord, or it might produce some other undesired results (causing a further conflict), etc.

 

I think every RPG team should hire one guy to just look at all the quests and come up with "Wait... why can't you do this in this situation?!" lists. 8P

 

It's a lot less important when you're not in a dire, people's-lives-are-on-the-line situation. If you come upon a squirrel on a path, I don't need 73 options for how to handle that situation.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Is it even possible to save her completely?

 

With Cipher you get a choice to

purge her mind of the Animancer's taint

, but she seems to always end up dead at the end of the fight anyway -- even when I cast a Withdraw on her she just went *poof* and never came back and the script acted like she had died.