Ranged versus Melee

[Sensuki]

If you want all ranged weapons to be absolutely trash sh1tty weapons that are worthless using against armor, sure.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Valorian]

If you want all ranged weapons to be absolutely trash sh1tty weapons that are worthless using against armor, sure.

 

Right. 30-50 damage is clearly trashy sheetty banal boring against armor.

 

[Gromnir]

am thinking interrupts is a factor being overlooked... but we cannot tell.  as we noted above, we have frequently seen our firearms users being interrupted. bow users is interrupted far less frequent... maybe-- we can't say for sure. if because o' interrupts we is getting significant more potential attacks with a bow than with a firearm, that is a big consideration. nevertheless, we don't know how to check such.  is not transparent.

 

the combat log gives many numbers, but the combat log is brief, and the numbers aren't attached to specific causes... can become very confusing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sensuki]

Right. 30-50 damage is clearly trashy sheetty banal boring against armor.

 

You're just arguing for the sake of it. You said maybe Crossbows, Arbalests and guns are too good. Arbalests do 30-50 damage which is a lot less DPS at their fire rate than a 2H weapon such as a Morningstar (which is the second best weapon in the game atm behind the Estoc). I would say that currently the Arbalest is around about where it needs to be. If you nerf the Arbalest and Guns to do less DPS than Bows at DT 0 than armor, then they will not be worth using at all. The Ranger will become a ****ty class, and you'll just use everyone else in melee or spellcasting, and *maybe* you'd switch to range weapons for an opening volley at the start of combat or when fighting a single lone enemy that's slow like the Ogre.

 

Is that how you want ranged combat to be? That's not how I want it to be.

 

am thinking interrupts is a factor being overlooked... but we cannot tell.

Not quite. Interrups are dependent on a number of factors. Firstly you have to score at least a graze to qualify for an interrupt. Interrupt rolls are reduced by 50% on a graze and increased by 50% on a crit, making Interrupts reliant on your Accuracy to be effective. A point in Dexterity will add between 0.5% and 1.5% to your Interrupts over a course of time, whereas a point in Perception will add 3%. However this percentage is relative to the Base Interrupt of the weapon or spell you are using, the Defense score of the enemy and their Concentration so it's really hard to quantify how useful Interrupts are but it's safe to say that a point in Perception is weaker than a point in any other attribute. Edited September 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[GreyFox]

Relative to bows, Arbalests and Guns are awesome. I have mainly used the Arbalest and there's zero reason to use any of the lower damage ranged weapons.

 

This is due to DT. I'm not sure how the damage values have been balanced, but a 20% increase in speed is only the same as a 20% increase in damage at 0 DT, at 1DT, the 20% increase in speed falls off because it is now opposing DT 20% more of the time than the 20% damage is. This formula scales with every point of DT as well, so as DT gets higher and higher, pure damage outshines attack speed assuming their DPS at 0 DT is the same.

 

You said you have reduced the damage of bows, likely due to bows being OP in D&D, well it's having quite a negative effect combined with the DT system.

 

This issue also applies to melee weapons. There is not really a reason to use 1H Normal or 1H Fast weapons except Stilettos and Maces (due to the -5 DT) because the DPS is balanced to be roughly the same against 0 DT. I avoid using anything other than two-handers unless I don't have enough two-handed weapons.

 

You'll probably need to alter the damage ranges for melee weapon categories so that there's a quadratic scale of efficacy for all three groups.

 

If you're interested I have a series of videos fighting the Dyrford Crossing beetles on Hard in this thread: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68242-the-insane-beta-battles-crossing/

 

My first video is pretty nooby, but I get better as I go, and in the second video I switch out the Arbalest onto my Rogue.

 

I did this in IWD2 as well. I just equipped all my melee characters with 2 weapons or a 2H weapon and just went to town because defense didn't seem to matter. It was just a race to see who could beat stick who the fastest as no one could really be missed. Seems the issue is somewhat different this time but the need to grab the biggest stick is there.

[Labadal]

I am trying ranged weapons as I am typing this. The arbalest on hard difficulty versus wood beetles: My worst regular attack did 25 damage, most attacks did damage in the 35-50s range. A graze did 13.

 

The fine hunting bow did 7 damage on average. The difference is huge.

 

A regular crossbow did damage in the mid 20s on average.

 

The fine arquebus was comparable to the arbalest in the damage department.

 

I also noticed that the beetle poison takes away 7 hp damage per second. That is a bit much. Half of that would make more sense.

 

I was using a rogue and had reckless assault activated on at all times.

 

An invincibility mode would be nice, so one can test out stuff like this with all spells and weapons.

[Valorian]

 

Right. 30-50 damage is clearly trashy sheetty banal boring against armor.

 

....

 

 

How does the 9-16 bow compare to 10-16 melee weapons? 

Is that a factor in your observations or does "bow too weak! change!!" exist in a vacuum?

[Gromnir]

 

 

am thinking interrupts is a factor being overlooked... but we cannot tell.

Not quite. Interrups are dependent on a number of factors. Firstly you have to score at least a graze to qualify for an interrupt. Interrupt rolls are reduced by 50% on a graze and increased by 50% on a crit, making Interrupts reliant on your Accuracy to be effective. A point in Dexterity will add between 0.5% and 1.5% to your Interrupts over a course of time, whereas a point in Perception will add 3%. However this percentage is relative to the Base Interrupt of the weapon or spell you are using, the Defense score of the enemy and their Concentration so it's really hard to quantify how useful Interrupts are but it's safe to say that a point in Perception is weaker than a point in any other attribute.

 

all of which tells us very little about how interrupts are affecting actual combat. am aware o' the relative impact o' perception and dexterity on causing interrupts, but we cannot tell what actions is interrupted and how.

 

*shrug*

 

as we said, firearms have a longer reload time and appear to be getting interrupted more frequent. that is an important factor that is being overlooked.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sensuki]

How does the 9-16 bow compare to 10-16 melee weapons? 

Is that a factor in your observations or does "bow too weak! change!!" exist in a vacuum?

Bows fire slower than melee weapons do, and you will also note if you read my post earlier in the thread replying to Josh that 1H fast and 1H normal weapons are also an inferior choice at the moment against any armor (except Stilettos and Maces) compared to 2H weapons.

 

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

 

as we said, firearms have a longer reload time and appear to be getting interrupted more frequent. that is an important factor that is being overlooked.

What I am saying to you is that the DPS reduction you are inflicting on the enemy (0.5 seconds every interrupt) is not worth as much as the DPS you gain from a point in Might, a point in Dexterity or the extra duration length you get from buffs in Intellect.

 

Your Bow and Bear ranger is one of the only use cases where Interrupts are kinda useful. Shadenuat also managed to have good results with his Dual Stiletto wielding Barbarian. I have to ask, does your Ranger also have a good Dexterity ?

 

edit: oh yeah I don't think Interrupt rolls are shown in the combat log at the moment.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Elerond]

Werent guns supposed to be more powerful than bows? I thought that's what justified the long reload.

 

Yes but currently they do so much more damage that bows don't seem to can keep up with over all damage even with unarmored enemies let alone armored ones. As currently person armed with exceptional war bow does only one third of damage that what person with fine arquebus does, but can't get third shot done before person with arquebus has shot second time. And against heavily armored enemies war bows damage is negated nearly completely, where arquebus loses only one third of it damage.  

[Gromnir]

 

How does the 9-16 bow compare to 10-16 melee weapons? 

Is that a factor in your observations or does "bow too weak! change!!" exist in a vacuum?

Bows fire slower than melee weapons do, and you will also note if you read my post earlier in the thread replying to Josh that 1H fast and 1H normal weapons are also an inferior choice at the moment against any armor (except Stilettos and Maces) compared to 2H weapons.

 

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

 

as we said, firearms have a longer reload time and appear to be getting interrupted more frequent. that is an important factor that is being overlooked.

What I am saying to you is that the DPS reduction you are inflicting on the enemy (0.5 seconds every interrupt) is not worth as much as the DPS you gain from a point in Might, a point in Dexterity or the extra duration length you get from buffs in Intellect.

 

Your Bow and Bear ranger is one of the only use cases where Interrupts are kinda useful. Shadenuat also managed to have good results with his Dual Stiletto wielding Barbarian. I have to ask, does your Ranger also have a good Dexterity ?

 

our ranger has excellent dexterity and perception as its main function is interrupting... maybe. am not certain if we is interrupting and what actions we can interrupt or how successful we is. 

 

regardless, you is looking at the wrong stat in the present case. you should be asking about resolve. the immediate question is if the relative longer reload time o' firearms is creating a greater window o' opportunity to be interrupted, and how being a Victim o' interrupts is affecting actual damage output o' bow users v. firearms users. our cipher damage with the hunting bow were considerably better than labadal's numbers, but the genuine question is the effective increase in attack frequency we is getting due faster reload time for bows... which o'course needs must take into account Resolve and resistance to interrupts. as has been noted elsewhere, the current ai is a bit wonky in the beta with the bb fighter being mobbed. such will, apparently, be less frequent in the regular game. our ranged combatants will be targeted more frequent. as we noted already, our firearms users is already more noticeable victims o' interrupts.  if that factor will increase in the non beta portion o' the game, bow usefulness further increases... maybe... potentially, don't know. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am still believing the bear companion is busted. haven't played a ranger since the recent update, but the bear typical had an accuracy o' 77 and were doing damage in the 50-70 range. our ranger bow damage were an almost negligible factor in determining our effective dps

Edited September 9, 2014 by Gromnir

[Elerond]

am thinking interrupts is a factor being overlooked... but we cannot tell.  as we noted above, we have frequently seen our firearms users being interrupted. bow users is interrupted far less frequent... maybe-- we can't say for sure. if because o' interrupts we is getting significant more potential attacks with a bow than with a firearm, that is a big consideration. nevertheless, we don't know how to check such.  is not transparent.

 

the combat log gives many numbers, but the combat log is brief, and the numbers aren't attached to specific causes... can become very confusing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Interrupts against ranged characters are currently rare as enemies about always target front liners, but I would guess that better AI could cause interrupts become meaningful factor when one considers which ranged weapons characters will wield, especially if one is such area of game where majority of enemies don't have DT 10 or more.

[Valorian]

 

How does the 9-16 bow compare to 10-16 melee weapons? 

Is that a factor in your observations or does "bow too weak! change!!" exist in a vacuum?

Bows fire slower than melee weapons do, and you will also note if you read my post earlier in the thread replying to Josh that 1H fast and 1H normal weapons are also an inferior choice at the moment against any armor (except Stilettos and Maces) compared to 2H weapons.

 

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

 

 

Sure you have... and bow wielding people won't be interrupted nearly as often as melee characters, or have to turn on defender mode slowing their attack speed to hold more people, or suffer from on-hit status effects as frequently as melee guys, and so on.

 

I appreciate your passion and I understand that you have a specific "me me me / I developer" delusional compulsion, but at least dial it down a notch.

[Sensuki]

Sure you have... and bow wielding people won't be interrupted nearly as often as melee characters, or have to turn on defender mode slowing their attack speed to hold more people, or suffer from on-hit status effects as frequently as melee guys, and so on.

When the AI is improved that won't be the case, and even now they are a trap choice compared to the other weapons except in the specific use cases of applying debuffs or a Bow Ranger that focuses on Interrupt when specifically using the high damage Bear Companion.

 

I believe you are making an incorrect statement about Bows and if people listened to you and bows were not made viable, Bows would remain an underpowered and uncompelling choice for characters from a powergaming perspective.

 

Perhaps your problem is more with me specifically than the argument you are trying to make.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Labadal]

Bows are so useless compared to other long ranged weapons/spells, that there is no point in trying to defend them at this very point. If bows got a much faster attack rate, then maybe.

[Valorian]

 

Sure you have... and bow wielding people won't be interrupted nearly as often as melee characters, or have to turn on defender mode slowing their attack speed to hold more people, or suffer from on-hit status effects as frequently as melee guys, and so on.

When the AI is improved that won't be the case, and even now they are a trap choice compared to the other weapons except in the specific use cases of applying debuffs or a Bow Ranger that focuses on Interrupt when specifically using the high damage Bear Companion.

 

I believe you are making an incorrect statement about Bows and if people listened to you and bows were not made viable, Bows would remain an underpowered and uncompelling choice for characters from a powergaming perspective.

 

 

We can certainly agree on the importance of the AI targeting ranged characters too, from time to time, let's leave it at that. 

[Valorian]

 

Perhaps your problem is more with me specifically than the argument you are trying to make.

 

 

It's not, I don't have anything against you personally.

 

Sometimes I retaliate too hard, I'm sorry. I don't think you're delusional.

[Lephys]

Bows are so useless compared to other long ranged weapons/spells, that there is no point in trying to defend them at this very point. If bows got a much faster attack rate, then maybe.

For what it's worth, Valorian is simply questioning if their relative uselessness actually holds true only within the group "ranged offensive attack options," or if it holds true out of all available attack options.

 

I think it's a fair consideration. It's not simply "defending bows," and he's not just saying "obviously they're fine" or anything. It just looks like the vast majority of in-depth analysis presented has been between bows and other ranged options. It's not unreasonable to seek out further in-depth comparison between bows and non-ranged options.

 

What we don't want to happen is to prematurely deduce that bows need an upgrade, upgrade them, then run into "Okay, bows and arbalests and guns are cool now, but now all melee weapons suck. There's no reason not to use ranged weapons."

 

 

Also, I don't know how much trouble this would be, but it seems like some sort of arena, or just a test area within the current beta-build maps, with a little menagerie of combat encounters set up ("Here's a group of low-armor foes. Here's a group of medium-armor foes. Here's a group of high-armor foes. Here's a group of high-deflection foes... low-deflection foes..." etc.) would probably be extremely beneficial in gathering this sort of data. *shrug*

Edited September 9, 2014 by Lephys

[Sensuki]

Sometimes I retaliate too hard, I'm sorry. I don't think you're delusional.

No worries, mate.

[Sensuki]

I think it's a fair consideration. It's not simply "defending bows," and he's not just saying "obviously they're fine" or anything. It just looks like the vast majority of in-depth analysis presented has been between bows and other ranged options. It's not unreasonable to seek out further in-depth comparison between bows and non-ranged options.

In case you skimmed over my earlier post. Currently 1H Fast and 1H normal melee weapons are also underpowered, it's not just bows.

 

The fact is that due to DT, slower weapons that deal more per hit damage are far stronger than faster lower damage weapons if they deal roughly the same DPS at 0 DT.

 

This can all be fixed if the damage ranges are changed so that there is a quadratic effect of efficacy where the lower damage weapons outshine the others vs 0 DT and low DT, where middle range speed weapons have the highest DPS vs medium armor and slower, high damage weapons are the best vs high DT.

 

I think this is how it was intended to be, but the ranges were made for DT 0, not taking armor into account.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Sensuki

[Labadal]

 

Bows are so useless compared to other long ranged weapons/spells, that there is no point in trying to defend them at this very point. If bows got a much faster attack rate, then maybe.

For what it's worth, Valorian is simply questioning if their relative uselessness actually holds true only within the group "ranged offensive attack options," or if it holds true out of all available attack options.

 

I think it's a fair consideration. It's not simply "defending bows," and he's not just saying "obviously they're fine" or anything. It just looks like the vast majority of in-depth analysis presented has been between bows and other ranged options. It's not unreasonable to seek out further in-depth comparison between bows and non-ranged options.

 

What we don't want to happen is to prematurely deduce that bows need an upgrade, upgrade them, then run into "Okay, bows and arbalests and guns are cool now, but now all melee weapons suck. There's no reason not to use ranged weapons."

 

I am in-game right now, running through all the beta content. Compared to almost everything else (probably everything) they are not very useful. All ranged weapons have piercing damage. I'm in the Skaen dungeon, and still, bows are not worth it. versus the wolves: not worth it. I am just talking after observing different approaches to different encounters. I'm not trying to argue for or against. I am trying it out and posting approximate results of their usefulness.

[Valorian]

 

Sometimes I retaliate too hard, I'm sorry. I don't think you're delusional.

No worries, mate.

 

 

Mate! And yes, your Australian accent is smexy. 

Coincidentally, I'm currently watching a nice Australian series called Please like me.

[Matt516]

I'll point out that talents are available at level 3, 6, 9 and 12; for a total of 4 talents.

By the time I add some customization spice to my character through talents it will be The End. 

 

OE will likely increase the rate at which we get talents. I'd bet... oh... 100$ on it.

[GreyFox]

 

I'll point out that talents are available at level 3, 6, 9 and 12; for a total of 4 talents.

By the time I add some customization spice to my character through talents it will be The End. 

 

OE will likely increase the rate at which we get talents. I'd bet... oh... 100$ on it.

 

 

Yea..but like Josh was saying this is supposed to be the IWD/BG type of game so it isn't and probably shouldn't be realistic to have a complete character fully fleshed out in this game.

I feel if we get talents too often it will become bloated towards the end and inevitably the talents in PE2 will be less interesting/useful(or flat out over the top).

 

9 or 10 feats from levels 1-20 should work IMO and then whatever they decide to do above 20 if it goes beyond that.

[Matt516]

 

 

I'll point out that talents are available at level 3, 6, 9 and 12; for a total of 4 talents.

By the time I add some customization spice to my character through talents it will be The End. 

 

OE will likely increase the rate at which we get talents. I'd bet... oh... 100$ on it.

 

 

Yea..but like Josh was saying this is supposed to be the IWD/BG type of game so it isn't and probably shouldn't be realistic to have a complete character fully fleshed out in this game.

I feel if we get talents too often it will become bloated towards the end and inevitably the talents in PE2 will be less interesting/useful(or flat out over the top).

 

9 or 10 feats from levels 1-20 should work IMO and then whatever they decide to do above 20 if it goes beyond that.

 

 

Yeah I'd expect they end up going with 1 or 2 talents at lvl 1, then 1 every 2 levels from there.