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After having played the beta, list your main things you want OE feedback on


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Like the title says, here you can list PoE beta build stuff/questions/issues that you want to hear Josh & Co elaborate upon. They can fill us in where they are now (if they even have the time), and set some boundaries for things (so we don't have to debate far and wide). Please, try to list what matters the most to you, and what you think would improve the game in a significant way.

 

I'll go first:

-What's the general plan for creating a well-paced, well-arranged and easy-to-grasp party combat experience?

-How to make the xp system feel rewarding, given that it's still the fuel for all character progression?

-How many talents are there? Are all of them cross-class, or will there be class-only, some classes?

-Individual sneaking would be neat, even necessary. Will it at all be possible?

-To what extent are you able to create a relevant, fun and varied low-level (1-12) itemization that are more than just "Oh, finally a +1 kukri", but rather "Wowzers! A forked tongue swamp hag dagger that grants +4 to damage, but -3 on each attack". 

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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-How to make the xp system feel rewarding, given that it's still the fuel for all character progression?

In relation to this, I'd ask: why the decision for no XP for kills, when the vast majority of spells/abilities/talents are geared towards combat effectiveness? To me this makes little sense. You get a shedload of talents/skills/abilities that are geared towards combat, yet you get no XP awards for... combat. Note that I actually don't mind the XP system in PoE, but I'm wondering what the thinking was on this.

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Ink Blot: Indeed. Hence, many beta players' curiosity regarding how many the talents are and what they are.

Still, I suspect that discussion has plenty of more fitting threads already on these forums. :)

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Ink Blot: Indeed. Hence, many beta players' curiosity regarding how many the talents are and what they are.

Still, I suspect that discussion has plenty of more fitting threads already on these forums. :)

Yep, you're correct. Sorry for derailing this one.

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Here's another one, once again of inspired by great posters and threads in the beta forums and the Combat & Mechanics forum:

-Why so low-impact attributes? Even if you play the game with every attribute point at rock bottom, it's like playing with no-frills. It still works just fine.

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Here's another one, once again of inspired by great posters and threads in the beta forums and the Combat & Mechanics forum:

-Why so low-impact attributes? Even if you play the game with every attribute point at rock bottom, it's like playing with no-frills. It still works just fine.

Funny, I just read that post! (I assume it was the same one - the one about Sucky and Tagalong). Later on it's pointed out that the attributes are not fully balanced yet, so much could change before the final release.

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People who still defends the core mechanics should really try this little experiment...

 

When a PC build with all attributes kept to the minimum (not using the fifty something points awarded at the creation phase) is equally viable than a character with the points well distributed, then there is something fundamentally flawed in the core system, something no amount of re-balancing can easily fix.

 

If you adjusted the bonus scale for D&D's attribute system to go from -1 at 3 and +1 at 20, you would get the same outcome you're talking about, though -- and that would be a balance issue, not a fundamental mechanical issue.  It may be that Might grants too little of a bonus from point to point, it may be that wizards' spells simply do so much damage that a low bonus doesn't have a large impact on their viability, or it could be something else.

 

 

Yay! Feedback is coming, and from Josh, no less! It feels like first day in school! :w00t:

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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More feedback:

 

Is it possible to finish the game without crafting/enchanting? 

 

It should be, yes.  Crafting is really just there to let people fine-tune things.

 

 

 

 

Will there be any weapons that can be crafted by finding pieces of them, like Crom Faeyr in BG2?

 

Yes.  Not many, but a few, and they won't be as powerful as Crom Faeyr given the power spectrum for PoE.

 

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Josh, if you're still reading this thread -- is it possible to recreate any magic item already in the game by crafting?

 

It's not, no.  First, you can only enchant weapons, armor, and shields.  Cloaks, boots, bracers, etc. can't be enchanted.  But even within the boundaries of weapons, armor, and shields, there are currently few (no? I can't remember) recipes for Spellbind and Spell Hold, which tend to be among the more distinguishing features.

 

 

That was a relief, I reckon! :)

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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More sweet Josh-feedback on itemization!

It's very easy for us to remove recipes.  My goal with the system was to allow people to fine-tune their gear over the course of the game.  If the presented list of recipes seems too large or if it makes the unique items feel less unique, we can roll back exactly what's offered -- because there's quite a lot there.  I think the best things to leave in the enchantment recipes are the bread-and-butter upgrades like quality (Fine/Exceptional/Superb), damage procs, and the more common elements.  That way if someone just wants to keep an item competitive and viable throughout the game, they have the means to do that instead of needing to get rid of the item.

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Sounds like they could reduce the Might bonus to 1.5% or lower and that might help a bit with it seeming overpowered.

 

Personally, I don't believe that Might is overpowered, but I do think Dexterity could be improved a bit more.  The difference between 10 and 20 Dex is 10 points of Accuracy, which is only equivalent (sort of -- not exactly due to how Grazes/Crits work) to +2 in D&D terms.

 

This is also feedback that is relevant to some of our questions here.

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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More sweet Josh-feedback on itemization!

It's very easy for us to remove recipes.  My goal with the system was to allow people to fine-tune their gear over the course of the game.  If the presented list of recipes seems too large or if it makes the unique items feel less unique, we can roll back exactly what's offered -- because there's quite a lot there.  I think the best things to leave in the enchantment recipes are the bread-and-butter upgrades like quality (Fine/Exceptional/Superb), damage procs, and the more common elements.  That way if someone just wants to keep an item competitive and viable throughout the game, they have the means to do that instead of needing to get rid of the item.

 

Hm, I think the "bread-and-butter upgrades" are the least interesting. Generally speaking, that is..

Edited by dorkboy

This statement is false.

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-How to make the xp system feel rewarding, given that it's still the fuel for all character progression?

In relation to this, I'd ask: why the decision for no XP for kills, when the vast majority of spells/abilities/talents are geared towards combat effectiveness? To me this makes little sense. You get a shedload of talents/skills/abilities that are geared towards combat, yet you get no XP awards for... combat. Note that I actually don't mind the XP system in PoE, but I'm wondering what the thinking was on this.

 

No XP for kills is a general concept for freedom of gameplay style. If you are only giving away rewards for reaching goals (and subgoals) and not rewarding the steps on the path towards that point every way is at the same "experience value", as long as it´s reaching the goal at all!

 

B2T:

Only played the Beta at Gamescom, so I don´t know if that problem has already been adressed: Characters are flickering a bit and they generally doesn´t have that "perfect" look of the backgrounds.

Could be solved by supersampling the characters. Would be more Power-Efficent then trying to force supersampling onto whole game!

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I forgot this one, and I kept Stun's and Zeckul's posts as well for easier reference:

 

 

 

Now if we could just get them to slow the combat speed down a bit so we can enjoy seeing the effects of our enchanted weapons in action, this game would jump several more spots closer to Ideal.

 

Before we start tuning a lot of values, we need to get the basic bugs fixed.  The next update to the BB should clear out the most frustrating aspects of simply selecting, moving, and executing commands reliably.  Then we can look at overall combat speed tuning, among other things.

Yup, this is why after playing 30 minutes with this I thought "I'm reserving judgement on all the systems until it gets minimally playable". Lots of interesting discussions going on, but even with a combat system designed by God himself people would still not be having much fun and try to blame it on the combat system.

 

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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-What's the general plan for creating a well-paced, well-arranged and easy-to-grasp party combat experience?

The "easy-to-grasp" part can be achieved with a comprehensive tutorial. But "well-paced" and "well-arranged" are rather subjective definitions. So I doubt anyone can answer you without knowing what exactly you have in mind.

 

-To what extent are you able to create a relevant, fun and varied low-level (1-12) itemization that are more than just "Oh, finally a +1 kukri", but rather "Wowzers! A forked tongue swamp hag dagger that grants +4 to damage, but -3 on each attack". 

Random drops and random affixes? No thanks. I'm fresh from D:OS (actually I'm still playing it but nearing the home stretch) and random itemization was one of those things that killed all the fun little by little. It's every bit as bad as vanilla NWN and even worse.

Edited by prodigydancer
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prodigydancer: Everything a player does with a game is subjective to one degree or another. Josh has already answered that one, just see his reply in a post above you. :)

 

As for the second quote: You misunderstand something there. I never mention random drops. "Itemization" in a CRPG is something else. See the relevant thread under Combat beta discussion.

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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As for the second quote: You misunderstand something there. I never mention random drops. "Itemization" in a CRPG is something else. See the relevant thread under Combat beta discussion.

I know what itemization is. :) So let me clarify: itemization doesn't exist on its own because what items are theoretically obtainable partially depends on how you can obtain them. Random affixes based itemization implies random drops and random drops are insanely annoying unless the game in question is an ARPG with full on-demand respawn (aka Diablo clone),

 

As long as meaningful items aren't randomly generated it's OK with me. DA:O did it right, for example.

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--the only xp question we have is: why are tasks and quests disappearing from our log? the game is designed to get you to level 10ish (maybe it were 11... don't recall) or so. if the QA guys are actual reaching level 10 and they is gaining levels at predictable and relative stable increments, then we got no idea what possible xp queries we could possibly think o' that would be at all meaningful.

 

-- how does interrupting work, and how is Gromnir 'posed to recognize if we is successful interrupting? there are TWO abilities that are intimately tied to interrupts: resolve and perception. nevertheless, we has no idea when we is interrupting and we only have a slight better chance o' recognizing when we has been interrupted.

 

-- are priests intended to be the only healing class? this game has a plethora o' classes and many unique new casters. unfortunately, the priest appears to be the only healer. unfortunately, this would seem to require that if we have a priest in a party, he/she needs almost by necessity, be a healbot. 

 

-- is there an obvious way to recognize which foes are affected by debuffs? combats can turn into a Charlie Fox very quickly, and one wood beetle looks very much like every other wood beetle. if Gromnir uses marked prey on a wood beetle,is there some kinda obvious visual indicator for letting us know which wood beetle is suffering from marked prey, or any of the other multitude o' possible debuffs? 

 

--am getting that talents is few in number at this point, but is there a reason the talents we do have is so enigmatic. congratulations, our ranger is now proficient with peasant weapons. okie dokie. what does that actual means? 

 

--why is the character record sheet not more dynamic? we change weapon load outs and nothing on character sheet changes. is it better for Gromnir to dual wield stilettos or use that fine arquebus? no matter which weapon load out we activate, our character record sheet revels no changes to inform us o' differences in accuracy or any other possible changes.

 

--are bears s'posed to be so bad arse? State o' Maine is doing ridiculous damage compared to our boar, wolf or stag... also, there doesn't seem to be a way to activate animal special abilities for those that have them, is this intentional? 

 

--the combat log, even when maximized is very brief. scroll up to max is maybe revealing two actions per party member. this is woefully insufficient. is it possible to save more detailed text logs into a PoE file we might review after combats?

 

-- at what point are we going to see more talents? even sucky talents is worth seeing 'cause then we could say, "those talents suck. do it different." the current ability points is admittedly diluting the relative diversity o' class builds. so, when can we start seeing more talents, talents which we hope will expand diversity.

 

we got many other queries, but no sense getting greedy, yes? will wait to add more later.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps one more query before we forget... pixel hunting for rare plants? really? 

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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