The Official Romance Thread

[Hiro Protagonist II]

You're going to have to be more specific. There are many reasons they do it. Depends on the NPC in question, and the developer in question, etc. You're right it's not a hard question to answer. It's a hard question to answer correctly, though. I suppose it's easy if you just stereotype developers, and mish-mash all sexy NPCs ever to exist in any video game.

 

 

LMAO. Here we go. You have to be more 'specific'. Another evasive tactic to avoid the question.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

I can't admit something that I don't know for sure.

 

Also, Anita Sarkeesian has videos explaining why anyone who has ever, or will ever, wear the hat of a game developer, sexualizes NPCs? No developer could ever have, or ever in the future, do so for any reason other than what she suggests? I'll have to check that out when I get a chance.

 

So you've been arguing for pages (page 19-23 of this thread) about something you don't know for sure? Okaaay. That explains a lot.

 

And why the exaggerations and extremes for Anita Sarkeesian's videos? You have something against Anita? Another delaying tactic. Also, it's good to check out Anita's videos because she covers a lot of games from the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s up to the present and gives analysis of why developers do it, and reasons for future products as well. Seriously, just answer the question why developers sexualise NPCs instead of arguing.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Lephys]

Hiro... what's the point of a discussion if you already know for sure?

 

"Guys, we're having a meeting to discuss our next course of action. Oh, I've already chosen what we're going to do, because I know for certain it's the best course of action, no matter what, but we're just going to waste a bunch of time discussing it anyway."

 

I don't know about you, but I recognize the limitations of my human mind and the knowledge there-in, and I enjoy bolstering that knowledge and tempering it with understanding, via discussion.

 

I'm horribly confused as to why you think everything I type on a public discussion forum is some kind of "tactic" in some imagined ongoing battle against you. I'm pretty sure these forums don't revolve around you. They revolve around discussion. I don't see a single other person in this entire forum accusing me left and right of evading things, and employing delaying tactics, etc. I find that mildly strange.

 

I already answered your question. I don't know what else you want from me.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Lephys

[Hiro Protagonist II]

To be honest I don't see the debate like that, I think Lephys has been very reasonable and forthright in responding to you?

 

But I have to say I also at times don't follow all the nuances of your debates with Lephys as it gets confusing..and I'm sure I'm not alone?

 

Oh of course Bruce, that's why Lephys has been evasive for 4 pages now, bringing up irrelevant examples and still refusing to answer the question and going to extremes and exaggerations even with Anita Sarkeesian's videos. You know this to be true and Lephys just doesn't want to give any kindling to me. LMAO. I still can't get over that. 'kindling'

 

But at least you could answer the question of why NPC's are sexualised in video games. I'll give you credit for that.

[Namutree]

 

Liking badly written trash don't make that trash any better written.

 

Going through dozens of poor quality mods to find one decent one, if there is even one, is very time consuming and some people don't have time to do that, but instead of that they buy game where vanilla version already offers decent quality romances, to fulfill their romance needs. 

 

All true. Doesn't change anything though. What the pro-mancers want Obsidian to sacrifice in favor of romance cannot be expected to be found in a mod at all. You tell me which you find more reasonable:

 

A) Add romances: Core content and mechanics are sacrificed so romances can be added. The romances might not even be good, and if they aren't they can really hurt the game. Obsidian has little experience making romances. Many Obsidian fans outright dislike the presence of romances; not surprising since Obsidian isn't known for romances. Poe becomes more like a run of the mill Bioware game; which there are plenty of, and will be many more of. Very little (If any) of the content sacrificed can be added in via mod.

 

B) Don't add romances: More/better core mechanics. No chance of hurting the game with bad romances. Pro-mancers still get romances a year or so later via mods. Yes, the good ones require a bit of work to get, but they will be available. Not to mention a decent share of pro-mancers don't have high standards and they will find a "good" romance mod quickly. Obsidian stands out as alternative to Bioware; giving the rpg market with more variety. 

 

Everyone benefits from better mechanics; only some of us benefit from romances.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Namutree

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Hiro... what's the point of a discussion if you already know for sure?

 

"Guys, we're having a meeting to discuss our next course of action. Oh, I've already chosen what we're going to do, because I know for certain it's the best course of action, no matter what, but we're just going to waste a bunch of time discussing it anyway."

 

I don't know about you, but I recognize the limitations of my human mind and the knowledge there-in, and I enjoy bolstering that knowledge and tempering it with understanding, via discussion.

 

I'm horribly confused as to why you think everything I type on a public discussion forum is some kind of "tactic" in some imagined ongoing battle against you. I'm pretty sure these forums don't revolve around you. They revolve around discussion. I don't see a single other person in this entire forum accusing me left and right of evading things, and employing delaying tactics, etc. I find that mildly strange.

 

I already answered your question. I don't know what else you want from me.

 

Why won't you answer the question of why NPC's are sexualised in video games? Why is it so hard for you to answer that?

[Namutree]

Hiro vs Lephys STILL isn't over? That's a long argument.

[Namutree]

Anyone not involved in this argument and yet able to keep up with it has my sincere admiration... Anyway...

 

I've changed my mind and decided I want Obsidian to include romances because I want to see how people deal with dating a godlike. You know, an otherwise normal person with flowers growing out on them and big floppy ears, or giant black things where the top of their head should be... Oh well, there's always fanfiction!

I guess I have your admiration, and at this point; I might need your pity.

[HoonDing]

[Stun]

Keep in mind that pandering to demographics is a much higher priority for many publishers than it is for many developers. You can't really judge a major, published title purely for its creativity, since the publishers kinda go "make this sexy enough, or your funding gets cut."

 

I'm not saying developers can do no wrong. Just, that they can do no right if the publisher demands wrong.

 

"This game didn't have good writing" doesn't really prove the dev team is incapable of writing quality romance, since the factor of "you don't get to just do whatever you feel like, developer" is present.

If that's true it would explain a whole lot.

 

EA: Hey, for this next game, make sure your writing sucks.

Bioware: Yes Sir!

[Darji]

 

 

Liking badly written trash don't make that trash any better written.

 

Going through dozens of poor quality mods to find one decent one, if there is even one, is very time consuming and some people don't have time to do that, but instead of that they buy game where vanilla version already offers decent quality romances, to fulfill their romance needs. 

 

All true. Doesn't change anything though. What the pro-mancers want Obsidian to sacrifice in favor of romance cannot be expected to be found in a mod at all. You tell me which you find more reasonable:

 

A) Add romances: Core content and mechanics are sacrificed so romances can be added. The romances might not even be good, and if they aren't they can really hurt the game. Obsidian has little experience making romances. Many Obsidian fans outright dislike the presence of romances; not surprising since Obsidian isn't known for romances. Poe becomes more like a run of the mill Bioware game; which there are plenty of, and will be many more of. Very little (If any) of the content sacrificed can be added in via mod.

 

B) Don't add romances: More/better core mechanics. No chance of hurting the game with bad romances. Pro-mancers still get romances a year or so later via mods. Yes, the good ones require a bit of work to get, but they will be available. Not to mention a decent share of pro-mancers don't have high standards and they will find a "good" romance mod quickly. Obsidian stands out as alternative to Bioware; giving the rpg market with more variety. 

 

Everyone benefits from better mechanics; only some of us benefit from romances.

 

I think this is not a fair judgement at all because you automatically dismiss romance by Obsidian which they not really tried until now in a serious fashion that it will be bad. Again to make romance meaningful and great you have to integrate this into the story. If you only add it as a feature it becomes shallow.  Since someone actually posted a FFVIII gif i take FF as an example. FFVIII and FFX had maybe totally cheesy and corny romance but they integrated this in their story and that was the reason why this was so good. " cheesy"  It was perfect for the Japanese teeny audience. Now imagine someone would try an actual more mature or serious romance plot in an western RPG. From all these studios out there. Except maybe Project Red I would give Obsidian the edge in created something actually good and not pointless.  Maybe Naughty Dog too but sadly they do not have any experience in Romance^^

 

As for the mechanics. I rather sacrifice mechanics than having a boring 0815 story with or without romance options.  For me  the story is the main reason I play games today.^^

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

So you're okay with developers manipulating a players emotions with sexualised NPCs?

 

I am because I see this as a positive way to add realism and make  the RPG experience more immersive. The levels  of party interaction are important and do add to the overall believability of the whole RPG experience

 

Bruce, you've described yourself as a feminist but I'm having a hard time reconciling how as a feminist you're okay with the sexualisation of NPCs in crps. Even more, you say this adds 'realism'. I'm guessing 'realism' in the sense of treating subject matter that presents a description of everyday life.

 

Some points and this post is going to be quite long. And since you're heterosexual and are looking at female NPCs, I'll just focus on female NPCs .

 

Games ask us to play with them. Now that may seem obvious, but bear with me. Game developers set up a series of rules and within those rules we are invited to test the mechanics to see what we can do, and what we can’t do. We are encouraged to experiment with how the system will react or respond to our inputs and discover which of our actions are permitted and which are not. The play comes from figuring out the boundaries and possibilities within the gamespace. So the developers have set up a series of possible scenarios involving sexualised female characters. Players are then invited to explore and exploit those situations during their play-through. The player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things to be acted upon, because they were designed, constructed and placed in the environment for that purpose.

 

Interactive media has the potential to be a perfect medium to genuinely explore sex and sexuality. But that’s not what’s happening here. These interactions set up a transactional relationship in which women (NPCs) are reduced to a base sexual function. It frames female sexuality as something that belongs to others, rather than as something NPCs enjoy for themselves. I’d argue that none of this is really about sex at all, certainly nothing resembling authentic consensual intimacy; publishers and developers are instead selling a particular fantasy about male power centered on the control of women - at least in this example of female NPCs.

 

This then leads into the dehumanisation caused by objectification, inevitably leads us to the concept of disposability, which is defined as “something designed for or capable of being thrown away after being used or used up”. Especially when you have multiple female sexualised NPCs that you can go from one to the other.

 

Which means that these female NPCs fulfil basically the same function as items the player can purchase from stores. This is a textbook example of another component of objectification referred to as interchangeability. The player treats the 'object' as interchangeable with other 'objects' of the same type (eg. Female romanceable NPCs), and/or with objects of other types.” Since these NPCs serve an identical or nearly identical “resource” function within the game space.

 

So what we have here is sexual objectification. The practice of treating or representing a female NPC as a thing or mere instrument to be used for another’s sexual purposes. Sexually objectified NPCs are valued primarily for their bodies, or body parts, which are presented as existing for the pleasure and gratification of others. You even admitted that you need to be physically attracted before a romance can start.

 

This doesn't sound like realism to me. And since you call yourself a feminist, you're okay with sexualised NPCs in video games.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Darji]

Sexualisation has nothing to do with sexism. A lot of people misunderstand this. Also there are pro sex and anti sex feminist. If you have something against sexualisation you are a anti sex feminist and believe sex should not even exist^^

[BruceVC]

I can tell you what would change  this debate once and for all, and its a suggestion that wasn't popular when I made it on another thread, is a situation where every single RPG offers Romance. Its optional of course but there is no way that game X doesn't have Romance as a  mechanism of better party interaction.

 

If Romance implementation was mandatory in all RPG then there would be more expectations from Developers to create them in a way that resonates with the fanbase?

 

So it would be same as where fans expect a compelling story or variety of races to choose from. We wouldn't we saying " I don't want Romance " we would be saying "how can this Romance arc be improved""

 

We can then focus our attention on how to make Romance better instead of interminable debates around whether Romance has a place in RPG?

 

What do you guys think?

[BruceVC]

 

 

So you're okay with developers manipulating a players emotions with sexualised NPCs?

 

I am because I see this as a positive way to add realism and make  the RPG experience more immersive. The levels  of party interaction are important and do add to the overall believability of the whole RPG experience

 

Bruce, you've described yourself as a feminist but I'm having a hard time reconciling how as a feminist you're okay with the sexualisation of NPCs in crps. Even more, you say this adds 'realism'. I'm guessing 'realism' in the sense of treating subject matter that presents a description of everyday life.

 

Some points and this post is going to be quite long. And since you're heterosexual and are looking at female NPCs, I'll just focus on female NPCs .

 

Games ask us to play with them. Now that may seem obvious, but bear with me. Game developers set up a series of rules and within those rules we are invited to test the mechanics to see what we can do, and what we can’t do. We are encouraged to experiment with how the system will react or respond to our inputs and discover which of our actions are permitted and which are not. The play comes from figuring out the boundaries and possibilities within the gamespace. So the developers have set up a series of possible scenarios involving sexualised female characters. Players are then invited to explore and exploit those situations during their play-through. The player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things to be acted upon, because they were designed, constructed and placed in the environment for that purpose.

 

Interactive media has the potential to be a perfect medium to genuinely explore sex and sexuality. But that’s not what’s happening here. These interactions set up a transactional relationship in which women (NPCs) are reduced to a base sexual function. It frames female sexuality as something that belongs to others, rather than as something NPCs enjoy for themselves. I’d argue that none of this is really about sex at all, certainly nothing resembling authentic consensual intimacy; publishers and developers are instead selling a particular fantasy about male power centered on the control of women - at least in this example of female NPCs.

 

This then leads into the dehumanisation caused by objectification, inevitably leads us to the concept of disposability, which is defined as “something designed for or capable of being thrown away after being used or used up”. Especially when you have multiple female sexualised NPCs that you can go from one to the other.

 

Which means that these female NPCs fulfil basically the same function as items the player can purchase from stores. This is a textbook example of another component of objectification referred to as interchangeability. The player treats the 'object' as interchangeable with other 'objects' of the same type (eg. Female romanceable NPCs), and/or with objects of other types.” Since these NPCs serve an identical or nearly identical “resource” function within the game space.

 

So what we have here is sexual objectification. The practice of treating or representing a female NPC as a thing or mere instrument to be used for another’s sexual purposes. Sexually objectified NPCs are valued primarily for their bodies, or body parts, which are presented as existing for the pleasure and gratification of others. You even admitted that you need to be physically attracted before a romance can start.

 

This doesn't sound like realism to me. And since you call yourself a feminist, you're okay with sexualised NPCs in video games.

 

 

This is a very thought provoking post and you have raised some genuine considerations and concerns , I am going to respond to it but I want to acknowledge first that it is relevant to the discussion. So nice one

[Namutree]

I think this is not a fair judgement at all because you automatically dismiss romance by Obsidian which they not really tried until now in a serious fashion that it will be bad. Again to make romance meaningful and great you have to integrate this into the story. If you only add it as a feature it becomes shallow.  Since someone actually posted a FFVIII gif i take FF as an example. FFVIII and FFX had maybe totally cheesy and corny romance but they integrated this in their story and that was the reason why this was so good. " cheesy"  It was perfect for the Japanese teeny audience. Now imagine someone would try an actual more mature or serious romance plot in an western RPG. From all these studios out there. Except maybe Project Red I would give Obsidian the edge in created something actually good and not pointless.  Maybe Naughty Dog too but sadly they do not have any experience in Romance^^

 

 

 

 

 

As for the mechanics. I rather sacrifice mechanics than having a boring 0815 story with or without romance options.  For me  the story is the main reason I play games today.^^

 

Whether or not Obsidian would make a good romance is unknown, but there is reason to think they may screw it up. There is no reason that a romance becomes shallow just because it isn't attached to the main plot. I've seen shallow romances that were attached to the main plot, and I've seen good romances that weren't.

 

Also, please clarify something for me: When you say integrate the romance into the story are you suggesting it be a mandatory or a relevant element of the plot? That would be a complete betrayal of the IE games.

 

Romance in the IE games are strictly a feature; putting them in as a core element would kill role-playing.

 

Sacrificing mechanics in favor of romance is just silly. Whether or not you care about them you will be dealing with the game mechanics! Anti-mancers will not be dealing with romances even if they are implemented well; unless they are mandatory, and that ruins the game completely so that issue is moot. 

 

You think that just because the story isn't about romance its a boring 0815? Sounds like you want a jrpg; not an IE style game. Even if Obsidian decided to side with you; poe's engine is a poor choice for a jrpg. Obsidian could create a decent jrpg AT BEST. I love me a good jrpg, but they come out all the time. An IE style game; it's been a while, and I'm tired of waiting.

 

The story in poe will likely be much more engaging than any story about romance could ever be for role-playing fans.

[Darji]

 

I think this is not a fair judgement at all because you automatically dismiss romance by Obsidian which they not really tried until now in a serious fashion that it will be bad. Again to make romance meaningful and great you have to integrate this into the story. If you only add it as a feature it becomes shallow.  Since someone actually posted a FFVIII gif i take FF as an example. FFVIII and FFX had maybe totally cheesy and corny romance but they integrated this in their story and that was the reason why this was so good. " cheesy"  It was perfect for the Japanese teeny audience. Now imagine someone would try an actual more mature or serious romance plot in an western RPG. From all these studios out there. Except maybe Project Red I would give Obsidian the edge in created something actually good and not pointless.  Maybe Naughty Dog too but sadly they do not have any experience in Romance^^

 

 

 

 

 

As for the mechanics. I rather sacrifice mechanics than having a boring 0815 story with or without romance options.  For me  the story is the main reason I play games today.^^

 

Whether or not Obsidian would make a good romance is unknown, but there is reason to think they may screw it up. There is no reason that a romance becomes shallow just because it isn't attached to the main plot. I've seen shallow romances that were attached to the main plot, and I've seen good romances that weren't.

 

Also, please clarify something for me: When you say integrate the romance into the story are you suggesting it be a mandatory or a relevant element of the plot? That would be a complete betrayal of the IE games.

 

Romance in the IE games are strictly a feature; putting them in as a core element would kill role-playing.

 

Sacrificing mechanics in favor of romance is just silly. Whether or not you care about them you will be dealing with the game mechanics! Anti-mancers will not be dealing with romances even if they are implemented well; unless they are mandatory, and that ruins the game completely so that issue is moot. 

 

You think that just because the story isn't about romance its a boring 0815? Sounds like you want a jrpg; not an IE style game. Even if Obsidian decided to side with you; poe's engine is a poor choice for a jrpg. Obsidian could create a decent jrpg AT BEST. I love me a good jrpg, but they come out all the time. An IE style game; it's been a while, and I'm tired of waiting.

 

The story in poe will likely be much more engaging than any story about romance could ever be for role-playing fans.

 

 

Integrate romance options that can be influence the mainplot yes.  A very simple example which should not be represent the quality of the romance. If you romance someone and something bad happens during story events it could be an influence a characters death for example. Or giving the choice of choosing love and sacrifice something important or do not chose love and gain something different.   stuff like that which also influence the overall story.

 

Romance and love is a very important part of our life and it influences us on so many levels. Therefore a world or story over a long amount of time without these things looks ridiculous and totally unrealistic and atmosphere braking in my opinion

Edited July 23, 2014 by Darji

[Namutree]

I can tell you what would change  this debate once and for all, and its a suggestion that wasn't popular when I made it on another thread, is a situation where every single RPG offers Romance. Its optional of course but there is no way that game X doesn't have Romance as a  mechanism of better party interaction.

 

If Romance implementation was mandatory in all RPG then there would be more expectations from Developers to create them in a way that resonates with the fanbase?

 

So it would be same as where fans expect a compelling story or variety of races to choose from. We wouldn't we saying " I don't want Romance " we would be saying "how can this Romance arc be improved""

 

We can then focus our attention on how to make Romance better instead of interminable debates around whether Romance has a place in RPG?

 

What do you guys think?

If romances were in all rpgs people like Stun would be arguing that romances need to go away. I also suspect that crpgs never wouldn't be popular in the west. Sacrificing core content for romance back in the 1980's would have been a disaster. Jrpgs would dominate the market.

[Darji]

 

I can tell you what would change  this debate once and for all, and its a suggestion that wasn't popular when I made it on another thread, is a situation where every single RPG offers Romance. Its optional of course but there is no way that game X doesn't have Romance as a  mechanism of better party interaction.

 

If Romance implementation was mandatory in all RPG then there would be more expectations from Developers to create them in a way that resonates with the fanbase?

 

So it would be same as where fans expect a compelling story or variety of races to choose from. We wouldn't we saying " I don't want Romance " we would be saying "how can this Romance arc be improved""

 

We can then focus our attention on how to make Romance better instead of interminable debates around whether Romance has a place in RPG?

 

What do you guys think?

If romances were in all rpgs people like Stun would be arguing that romances need to go away. I also suspect that crpgs never wouldn't be popular in the west. Sacrificing core content for romance back in the 1980's would have been a disaster. Jrpgs would dominate the market.

 

Compared to Western RPGs. JRPGs dominated the market back in the 90. And even today RPGs with romance or a love story also sell really well. So why not try to tell a more mature love story or offer a way more mature romance option. than these games?

[Namutree]

 

 

Integrate romance options that can be influence the mainplot yes.  A very simple example which should not be represent the quality of the romance. If you romance someone and something bad happens during story events it could be an influence a characters death for example. Or giving the choice of choosing love and sacrifice something important or do not chose love and gain something different.   stuff like that which also influence the overall story.

 

Romance and love is a very important part of our life and it influences us on so many levels. Therefore a world or story over a long amount of time without these things looks ridiculous and totally unrealistic and atmosphere braking in my opinion

 

I simply cannot properly understand the top paragraph; please re-write it. 

 

Romance and love are only important to some people, and no one says love doesn't exist in poe. Sure, you can't have a romance over the course of an adventure, but it's not like there are no relationships in the entire world.

[Namutree]

 

Compared to Western RPGs. JRPGs dominated the market back in the 90. And even today RPGs with romance or a love story also sell really well. So why not try to tell a more mature love story or offer a way more mature romance option. than these games?

 

If western rpgs would have focused on romance; they would have just been inferior jrpgs. Who would buy that? Even if people did but them; there would be no wrpgs. The only choices would be: Jrpgs or jrpgs. 

 

Why Obsidian shouldn't make jrpgs:

 

1) In today's market; jrpgs are lagging behind wrpgs.

 

2) Obsidian has no experience in making jrpgs.

 

3) The jrpg market is over-saturated.

 

4) The developers at Obsidian like wrpgs more than jrpgs.

 

5) Western developers are somewhat ignored in Japan, and the jrpg market relies on Japan to a great extent.

[Stun]

Romance and love is a very important part of our life and it influences us on so many levels. Therefore a world or story over a long amount of time without these things looks ridiculous and totally unrealistic and atmosphere braking in my opinion

The fact that love and romance are important influences on our real lives does not dictate that our RPGs must follow suit or suffer from some credibility gap. The very nature of the medium itself dictates otherwise, in fact. Video games are, and always have been, designed to offer a temporary escape from real life. This is doubly true for fantasy RPGs where the fantastical is often applauded and preferred over the real and mundane (ie. Magic. Monsters.)

 

Besides, some people simply don't like Soap Operas...and this is despite the fact that they're probably closer to real life than....you know...an episode of South Park, or one of those Cop shows

Edited July 23, 2014 by Stun

[Namutree]

So, does anyone think Obsidian will add romances to poe2 to please pro-mancers?

 

Not asking if you want them to; just if you think they will. 

[Stun]

I doubt it. And I doubt the reason they gave for not having them in PoE will suddenly not apply for the sequel.

[BruceVC]

So, does anyone think Obsidian will add romances to poe2 to please pro-mancers?

 

Not asking if you want them to; just if you think they will. 

 

Hopefully, I am cautiously optimistic

 

I think once they have got through the hurdle of making PoE they will say "how can we now improve on the game" and they start looking at a Romance implementation