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The problem is that you are trying to differentiate one media games with other medias movies, comics etc.  and this makes no sense at all.  I always laugh about things that are totally ok in movies, books, comics etc but not in video games. 

 

It does make sense because this thread is about video games. As I said, if we're going to spend the next five pages talking about movies, then how is that relevant to video games? It's OFF TOPIC! Seriously, how hard is that to understand???? If you want to talk about movies, create a thread in the OFF TOPIC Forum. I know I won't be part of it because I'm talking about video games. You and Bruce and whoever can talk about movies in the off topic forum.

 

And I'm not making an argument about any other medium. The desperation of those like you and Bruce are the ones who's trying to take this off topic to further your argument. I think PrimeJunta realises it's off topic as well.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II
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Really?...  Ok let us say you are out on the street and you see a woman or man you are interested in. The first thing that makes you take notice of is her looks and appearance.  If that would not interest her you would not even talk to her. Or do you talk to every man or woman in the hope of having an interesting character on the outside? This is getting kind of stupid....

 

Pretty much all women I meet don't wear skimpy outfits and have their cleavage sticking out at me. Are you suggesting that's what happens in real life?

 

 

Then you obviously have never been at schools or offices with young employees.

 

Seriously, what teenage girls in schools wear is usually A LOT more revealing than the so called "sexualized NPCs".

It's nothing special to see 13 year old girls with cleavage down to the belly button and mini skirts. And office ladies with pigtails and skirts that aren't much more than a girdle. In summer, you also see a lot of women dressed sexy walking down the streets. You even see girls clearly showing off their underwear with see-through clothing.

 

Of course, this depends on where you live, but in europe and especially germany, people are a lot more open minded about sexy looks or sex in general. People and self-declared feminists imho should grow up and accept that a lot of women have a different oppinion about feminism.

 

 

I can understand people complaining about unrealistic or non-pragmatic armor in a game (the infamous chainmail bikini). But there is no reason to bash games with NPCs in sexy clothing just because "clearly a man made that character model". Seriously, there are a LOT of female artists working at big game companies that design female characters in the same way men do. Because, surprise, even women sometimes enjoy seeing an attrative female character. And btw, men also enjoy seeing attractive male characters. They just won't admit it that freely.

 

Many game protagonists are attractive in one way or another. No matter the gender. Of course you sometimes see a female character with a skirt or cleavage. Because that's what some women like to wear, surprise, surprise! Of course you won't see male characters wearing skirts or no upper clothing. Because that isn't what men usually do. De facto, the ratio of topless men in real life to topless men in games reveals way more sexualization of male characters than the ratio of skirt-wearing females in real life to skirt-wearing females in games. It's just way more common for a woman to wear sexy clothes than for a man to wear sexy clothes in real life. So games basicly just mirror that reality.

Edited by Zwiebelchen
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Then you obviously have never been at schools or offices with young employees.

 

Seriously, what teenage girls in schools wear is usually A LOT more revealing than the so called "sexualized NPCs".

It's nothing special to see 13 year old girls with cleavage down to the belly button and mini skirts. And office ladies with pigtails and skirts that aren't much more than a girdle. In summer, you also see a lot of women dressed sexy walking down the streets. You even see girls clearly showing off their underwear with see-through clothing.

 

Of course, this depends on where you live, but in europe and especially germany, people are a lot more open minded about sexy looks or sex in general. People and self-declared feminists imho should grow up and accept that a lot of women have a different oppinion about feminism.

 

I can understand people complaining about unrealistic or non-pragmatic armor in a game. But there is no reason to bash games with NPCs in sexy clothing because "clearly a man made that character model". Seriously, there are a LOT of female artists working at big game companies that design female characters in the same way men do. Because, surprise, even women sometimes enjoy seeing an attrative female character.

 

Yes I have been to schools and offices with young employees.

 

Also, if you're going to make claims about a LOT of female artists working at big game companies who enjoy sexualising female NPCs, then please provide some links.

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Then you obviously have never been at schools or offices with young employees.

 

Seriously, what teenage girls in schools wear is usually A LOT more revealing than the so called "sexualized NPCs".

It's nothing special to see 13 year old girls with cleavage down to the belly button and mini skirts. And office ladies with pigtails and skirts that aren't much more than a girdle. In summer, you also see a lot of women dressed sexy walking down the streets. You even see girls clearly showing off their underwear with see-through clothing.

 

Of course, this depends on where you live, but in europe and especially germany, people are a lot more open minded about sexy looks or sex in general. People and self-declared feminists imho should grow up and accept that a lot of women have a different oppinion about feminism.

 

I can understand people complaining about unrealistic or non-pragmatic armor in a game. But there is no reason to bash games with NPCs in sexy clothing because "clearly a man made that character model". Seriously, there are a LOT of female artists working at big game companies that design female characters in the same way men do. Because, surprise, even women sometimes enjoy seeing an attrative female character.

 

Yes I have been to schools and offices with young employees.

 

Also, if you're going to make claims about a LOT of female artists working at big game companies who enjoy sexualising female NPCs, then please provide some links.

 

Best example: Bayonetta was designed by a Woman. God of war games have a ton of female designers as well. 

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Best example: Bayonetta was designed by a Woman. God of war games have a ton of female designers as well. 

 

It's always good when people don't provide any links or proof of their claims. Need to provide a link who designed the character and for the artist to admit they liked sexualising that character.

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Best example: Bayonetta was designed by a Woman. God of war games have a ton of female designers as well. 

 

It's always good when people don't provide any links or proof of their claims. Need to provide a link who designed the character and for the artist to admit they liked sexualising that character.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonetta_(character)

Edited by Darji
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A Wikipedia link? ROFL.

 

Really? You want to play this game? Wikipedia is great for common knowledge about famous stuff for research it is not.  What do you want as proof? an video in which she says that she did the design for Bayonetta? Just google her and you can see for yourself. Seriously Hiro now you are just trolling....

 

But seriously this goes sooo far offtopic now....

 

LEts rather talk about how romance option actually can be a great atmosphere boost for your emotions and your investment in an RPG. 

Edited by Darji
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Really? You want to play this game? Wikipedia is great for common knowledge about famous stuff for research it is not.  What do you want as proof? an video in which she says that she did the design for Bayonetta? Just google her and you can see for yourself. Seriously Hiro now you are just trolling....

 

Did you even read what I wrote? No, you are trolling when you agree with Zwiebelchen that there are LOTS of female artists working for big game companies who like to sexualise female NPCs. It's you and Zwiebelchen that are trolling with claims and can't back them up with proof. Just so you understand because clearly you don't. Show links to those female artists AND the artists who have admitted they like sexualising female NPCs.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II
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Then you obviously have never been at schools or offices with young employees.

 

Seriously, what teenage girls in schools wear is usually A LOT more revealing than the so called "sexualized NPCs".

It's nothing special to see 13 year old girls with cleavage down to the belly button and mini skirts. And office ladies with pigtails and skirts that aren't much more than a girdle. In summer, you also see a lot of women dressed sexy walking down the streets. You even see girls clearly showing off their underwear with see-through clothing.

 

Of course, this depends on where you live, but in europe and especially germany, people are a lot more open minded about sexy looks or sex in general. People and self-declared feminists imho should grow up and accept that a lot of women have a different oppinion about feminism.

 

I can understand people complaining about unrealistic or non-pragmatic armor in a game. But there is no reason to bash games with NPCs in sexy clothing because "clearly a man made that character model". Seriously, there are a LOT of female artists working at big game companies that design female characters in the same way men do. Because, surprise, even women sometimes enjoy seeing an attrative female character.

 

Yes I have been to schools and offices with young employees.

 

What country are we talking about here? Clearly, in germany, women get oppressed and are forced to wear sexy clothes at their everyday life. Because oppression of women usually means they have to wear skimpy outfits. Oh, it's actually the opposite? Never mind then...

 

 

 

 

Best example: Bayonetta was designed by a Woman. God of war games have a ton of female designers as well. 

 

It's always good when people don't provide any links or proof of their claims. Need to provide a link who designed the character and for the artist to admit they liked sexualising that character.

 

 

Are you freakin' kidding me? I won't waste my time browsing the web just because you refuse to believe the reality? If you don't trust in my claims, I'm perfectly fine with that.

 

 

But here, I will play your stupid game:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131993/women_in_games_the_gamasutra_20.php

 

There's some women in this list being artists and lead artists even of games with what you would call "sexualized NPCs".

Edited by Zwiebelchen
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What country are we talking about here? Clearly, in germany, women get oppressed and are forced to wear sexy clothes at their everyday life. Because oppression of women usually means they have to wear skimpy outfits. Oh, it's actually the opposite? Never mind then...

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. Another mindless off topic point about countries.

 

 

Are you freakin' kidding me? I won't waste my time browsing the web just because you refuse to believe the reality? If you don't trust in my claims, I'm perfectly fine with that. 

 

Funny how you make claims and never back them up. You're quick to make claims that LOTS of female artists at big gaming companies enjoy sexualising female NPCs but when called to provide some proof, it's the usual, not going to waste my time to prove anything. And I'm not refusing to believe reality if you can show me. The reality is there are people like yourself making claims and are unable to back those claims up.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II
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Funny how you make claims and never back them up. You're quick to make claims that LOTS of female artists at big gaming companies enjoy sexualising female NPCs but when called to provide some proof, it's the usual, not going to waste my time to prove anything. And I'm not refusing to believe reality if you can show me. The reality is there are people like yourself making claims and are unable to back those claims up.

 

 

I edited my post with a link.

 

And seriously, why should I bother representing you with links if you completely ignore all arguments anyway?

Edited by Zwiebelchen
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But here, I will play your stupid game:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131993/women_in_games_the_gamasutra_20.php

 

There's some women in this list being artists and lead artists even of games with what you would call "sexualized NPCs".

 

 

Artists and Lead artists are one thing. Where does it state they enjoyed sexualising female NPCs?

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@Hiro, could you be more specific about what you mean by 'sexualization?' For example, would you include characters like Catwoman as played by Michelle Pfeiffer in Batman Returns?

 

 

...

So the question is not relevant. But nice desperate attempt to take this off topic and talk about movies.

 

Well, the Catwoman example was just an example to illustrate the question.  The question itself was:

"@Hiro, could you be more specific about what you mean by 'sexualization?'"

That can be on-topic.

Tifa in FF7?, Princess Peach in SuperMario?

I believe PrimaJunta just wanted you to be more specific so as to understand your POV

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Well, the Catwoman example was just an example to illustrate the question.  The question itself was:

"@Hiro, could you be more specific about what you mean by 'sexualization?'"

That can be on-topic.

Tifa in FF7?, Princess Peach in SuperMario?

I believe PrimaJunta just wanted you to be more specific so as to understand your POV

 

I've already stated my view on more than one occasion. PrimeJunta knows this. He seemed to want to include movies in the discussion which would have taken it off topic, hence his Catwoman in Batman Returns example.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II
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I'm talking about video games, not movies, not comic books, not TV shows. Video games since that's the topic of discussion.

I tried to think of a clear videogame counterpart, but couldn't because video games are generally speaking so bad in this respect. What I'm getting at is, does your definition of 'sexualization' include objectification, or does it also encompass sexual characters who are not objectified?

 

The reason I'm asking is that I think there's a chance we're talking at cross-purposes here. I think it's pretty obvious that supporting sexual objectification of women is an anti-feminist position, whereas supporting portrayal of women as sexual beings without objectifying them is not (necessarily). If your definition of 'sexualization' includes objectification but BruceVC's doesn't, then you're disagreeing about semantics rather than substance.

 

(What I do find puzzling about BruceVC's position is that he enthusiastically supports BioWarean romances which are, in fact, obviously objectifying, yet he identifies as a feminist.)

 

(Edit: also, Hiro, on this topic I'm in pretty close agreement with you. I wasn't trying to change the topic or pick apart your position.)

Edited by PrimeJunta

I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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But here, I will play your stupid game:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131993/women_in_games_the_gamasutra_20.php

 

There's some women in this list being artists and lead artists even of games with what you would call "sexualized NPCs".

 

 

Artists and Lead artists are one thing. Where does it state they enjoyed sexualising female NPCs?

 

 

Oh yeah, of course. Because every artist always justifies his creations with a disclaimer message all the time.

 

"Yes, I had fun creating this overly sexualized female NPC. Because I am a woman. Yes. Yes I do not believe in woman rights. Yes. No I didn't create this character because I thought it looked good and fits my art style. No, I am clearly dumb and made this because I was forced to. Yes, woman artists are enslaved. You need to free us! Help, we are getting enslaved by male artists!"

That's what they all say. No seriously! To the rescue, fellow white-knights!

Edited by Zwiebelchen
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Oh yeah, of course. Because every artist always justifies his creations with a disclaimer message all the time.

 

"Yes, I had fun creating this overly sexualized female NPC. Because I am a woman. Yes. Yes I do not believe in woman rights. Yes. No I didn't create this character because I thought it looked good and fits my art style. No, I am clearly dumb and made this because I was forced to. Yes, woman artists are enslaved. You need to free us! Help, we are getting enslaved by male artists!"

That's what they all say. No seriously!

 

 

Okay, so you admit that your claim was false and misleading. I never claimed there were no female artists in the games industry. It was you who said there were LOTS of female artists working for big game companies who did enjoy sexualising female NPCs. Next time, try and tone down the false claims.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II
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I tried to think of a clear videogame counterpart, but couldn't because video games are generally speaking so bad in this respect. What I'm getting at is, does your definition of 'sexualization' include objectification, or does it also encompass sexual characters who are not objectified?

 

The reason I'm asking is that I think there's a chance we're talking at cross-purposes here. I think it's pretty obvious that supporting sexual objectification of women is an anti-feminist position, whereas supporting portrayal of women as sexual beings without objectifying them is not (necessarily). If your definition of 'sexualization' includes objectification but BruceVC's doesn't, then you're disagreeing about semantics rather than substance.

 

(What I do find puzzling about BruceVC's position is that he enthusiastically supports BioWarean romances which are, in fact, obviously objectifying, yet he identifies as a feminist.)

 

(Edit: also, Hiro, on this topic I'm in pretty close agreement with you. I wasn't trying to change the topic or pick apart your position.)          

 

Where this train wreck seems to have gone off the rails is when I made a post talking about sexualising female NPCs in romances which in turn changes them into objects. This was to Bruce since I quoted him and he admits he's a feminist. And I was using arguments from feminist websites (I have about 10 or so up in my browser tabs) on this very topic against Bruce.

 

And this has been part of what I've been talking about since this is the romance thread. And everyone seems to have an opinion, well this is the internet so why not keep this going? Seeing this thread blow out to 30 pages doesn't surprise me. :)

 

I can feel the nerd rage. I even got a pm from a poster from this thread! It was good to see the views of posters on this forum, their justifications, arguments, and everything else from the promancers though. It's also good to be able to pry the promancers deep seated bias and views out in the open for everyone to see. My views have been well documented in romance threads and I'm of the opinion that it's very hard to implement them so I would rather not have them in at the cost of other things. And I'm glad obsidian has taken this stance. I'm also of the opinion that a lot of what I wrote does seem to make sense and not giving a romanceable NPC agency is one of those flaws in crpgs. If anything, the promancers faulty arguments and equally faulty justifications has reinforced my views on why they shouldn't be in.

 

P.S. What I found even more surprising is that about 95% of my original post was a straight copy/paste from Anita Sarkeesian's latest blog with maybe a couple of words changed. And no one has bothered to check it. Even when I told people to check out her site. Oh well. Not trolling at all, just using websites by copy/paste arguments against a so called feminist. So many people take things so seriously. Chill out guys. I said so many times I'm not taking a feminist stance. It was an argument against Bruce. Nope, too much nerd rage for some posters.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II
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Oh yeah, of course. Because every artist always justifies his creations with a disclaimer message all the time.

 

"Yes, I had fun creating this overly sexualized female NPC. Because I am a woman. Yes. Yes I do not believe in woman rights. Yes. No I didn't create this character because I thought it looked good and fits my art style. No, I am clearly dumb and made this because I was forced to. Yes, woman artists are enslaved. You need to free us! Help, we are getting enslaved by male artists!"

That's what they all say. No seriously!

 

 

Okay, so you admit that your claim was false and misleading. I never claimed there were no female artists in the games industry. It was you who said there were LOTS of female artists working for big game companies who did enjoy sexualising female NPCs. Next time, try and tone down the false claims.

 

 

Neither did I admit that nor did I ever say that there are female artists who "enjoy sexualising female NPCs". Don't put words in my mouth just because you are too stupid to understand the meaning of what I said. I said that a lot of female artists also enjoy making female character art that looks sexy. You might regard that as sexualising, because you are narrow-minded. They don't because not everyone who wears a skimpy outfit is automaticly "sexualized" (well, it is, but just for pseudo-feminists as you are).

 

But just to prove you wrong (even if I don't have to, as you are clearly going for the "I don't need to have a proof, because everything I say is universal truth, but you sure do need proof, because your oppinion has less value than mine" approach:

I will browse DeviantArt for female artists creating artworks of fantasy characters. Let's see if I can find women drawing skantly clad females. Don't worry, I will only list the artists starting with 'A', so the list won't have millions of entries...

Edited by Zwiebelchen
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Neither did I admit that nor did I ever say that there are female artists who "enjoy sexualising female NPCs". Don't put words in my mouth just because you are too stupid to understand the meaning of what I said. I said that a lot of female artists also enjoy making female character art that looks sexy. You might regard that as sexualising, because you are narrow-minded. They don't because not everyone who wears a skimpy outfit is automaticly "sexualized" (well, it is, but just for pseudo-feminists as you are).

 

But just to prove you wrong (even if I don't have to, as you are clearly going for the "I don't need to have a proof, because everything I say is universal truth, but you sure do need proof, because your oppinion has less value than mine" approach:

I will browse DeviantArt for female artists creating artworks of fantasy characters. Let's see if I can find women drawing skandly clad females. Don't worry, I will only list the artists starting with 'A', so the list won't have millions of entries...

 

And you still haven't proved your claims. Not my problem that you make claims that you can't prove. And you said LOTS of females at big game companies. Not random artists on Devianart. So nice try to move the goal posts. It's not me who's being stupid.

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Neither did I admit that nor did I ever say that there are female artists who "enjoy sexualising female NPCs". Don't put words in my mouth just because you are too stupid to understand the meaning of what I said. I said that a lot of female artists also enjoy making female character art that looks sexy. You might regard that as sexualising, because you are narrow-minded. They don't because not everyone who wears a skimpy outfit is automaticly "sexualized" (well, it is, but just for pseudo-feminists as you are).

 

But just to prove you wrong (even if I don't have to, as you are clearly going for the "I don't need to have a proof, because everything I say is universal truth, but you sure do need proof, because your oppinion has less value than mine" approach:

I will browse DeviantArt for female artists creating artworks of fantasy characters. Let's see if I can find women drawing skandly clad females. Don't worry, I will only list the artists starting with 'A', so the list won't have millions of entries...

 

And you still haven't proved your claims. Not my problem that you make claims that you can't prove. And you said LOTS of females at big game companies. Not random artists on Devianart. So nice try to move the goal posts. It's not me who's being stupid.

 

 

Does it matter where the artists work? Does that make the argument invalid? It doesn't change anything that there are LOTS of female artists who draw characters in a "sexualized" way. In fact, freelance artists on DeviantArt have even less incentive to create characters that appeal a mostly male audience.

 

Just so that you can finally grasp your own stupidity and shut up about giving links: Here's some links to female artists displaying women as "sexualized" (in your book... I highly doubt they will understand their own *chauvinism*... lol) ... some of these artworks are so good that they could easily go as concept art for games. Oh, the second one actually IS working for a game company as concept artist.

 

http://www.deviantart.com/art/Silvernai-Ivne-278183547

http://eventrue.deviantart.com/art/EOS-Goddess-of-Dawn-387206266

http://dalilithiel.deviantart.com/art/Naranja-210911313

http://sakimichan.deviantart.com/art/Tree-Light-193865475

http://kelly-nantes.deviantart.com/art/Ahri-League-of-Legends-Fanart-451301756

http://www.deviantart.com/art/Angel-of-Dragons-452693789

http://moni158.deviantart.com/art/Hope-192768275

http://keelerleah.deviantart.com/

http://nekochank.deviantart.com/art/Flavia02-Commission-152805204

http://selenada.deviantart.com/art/Kitiana-the-Vampire-245110299

http://www.deviantart.com/#/art/Commission-Damsel-Minigame-Recruits-469956056?hf=1

http://www.deviantart.com/art/now-469882407

 

 

EDIT: I am always impressed by the amount of professionality from the gals and guys on DeviantArt.

 

EDIT2: Actually, after browsing DeviantArt, I noticed that almost all female artists that draw women (in painting style) draw them in a way that would qualify as "sexualized". At least over my 30 minutes search, I only found 2 female artists that drew girls or women in neutral non-sexual poses.

Edited by Zwiebelchen
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Does it matter where the artists work? It doesn't change anything that there are LOTS of female artists who draw characters in a "sexualized" way:

 

Just so that you can finally grasp your own stupidity and shut up about giving links: Here's some links to female artists displaying women as "sexualized" (in your book... I highly doubt they will understand their own *chauvinism*... lol) ... some of these artworks are so good that they could easily go as concept art for games. Oh, one of these artists actually IS working for a game company as concept artist.

 

http://www.deviantart.com/art/Silvernai-Ivne-278183547

http://eventrue.deviantart.com/art/EOS-Goddess-of-Dawn-387206266

http://dalilithiel.deviantart.com/art/Naranja-210911313

http://sakimichan.deviantart.com/art/Tree-Light-193865475

http://kelly-nantes.deviantart.com/art/Ahri-League-of-Legends-Fanart-451301756

http://www.deviantart.com/art/Angel-of-Dragons-452693789

http://moni158.deviantart.com/art/Hope-192768275

http://keelerleah.deviantart.com/

http://nekochank.deviantart.com/art/Flavia02-Commission-152805204

http://selenada.deviantart.com/art/Kitiana-the-Vampire-245110299

http://www.deviantart.com/#/art/Commission-Damsel-Minigame-Recruits-469956056?hf=1

http://www.deviantart.com/art/now-469882407

 

 

 

Yes it does matter where they work since you said there were LOTS of females artists at big gaming companies. No point linking an artist who works on a comic book or some random artist who's still at school.

 

Can you comprehend that when you make a claim, the onus is on you to prove it. You made a claim, now prove it. Prove where those artists work at big gaming companies who draw sexy (you may as well say sexualised) NPCs in video games.

 

Here's a classic example of nerd rage. So blinded by his rage he's missed my post above and still hasn't proved his claims.

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II
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Yes it does matter where they work since you said there were LOTS of females artists at big gaming companies. No point linking an artist who works on a comic book or some random artist who's still at school.

 

Can you comprehend that when you make a claim, the onus is on you to prove it. You made a claim, now prove it. Prove where those artists work at big gaming companies who draw sexy (you may as well say sexualised) NPCs in video games.

 

Here's a classic example of nerd rage. So blinded by his rage he's missed my post above and still hasn't proved his claims.

 

 

Okay, fine. There are no female artists working at big gaming companies. You totally proved me wrong (without actually proving something, because the "link or it didn't happen" rule obviously does not apply to you).

 

However, new claim: there's A LOT of female artists drawing females in a sexualized way. The prove is above. So how does that work with your conception of feminism and that all women don't like to see scandly clad women in games or art?

 

If anything, YOU missed the point of this discussion by picking out the one thing that I could not instantly prove and ignoring all other arguments that have been proven up until this point by multiple people in this thread.

Edited by Zwiebelchen
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Okay, fine. There are no female artists working at big gaming companies. You totally proved me wrong (without actually proving something, because the "link or it didn't happen" rule obviously does not apply to you).

 

However, new claim: there's A LOT of female artists drawing females in a sexualized way. The prove is above. So how does that work with your conception of feminism and that all women don't like to see scandly clad women in games or art?

 

If anything, YOU missed the point of this discussion by picking out the one thing that I could not instantly prove and ignoring all other arguments that have been proven up until this point by multiple people in this thread.

 

 

Hello. I'm not here to prove a negative or do your job. As I said, whoever makes the claim, the onus is on them to prove that claim. I never made a claim that there are or there aren't female artists in the industry. So it's not for me to prove anything, since I made no claim at the start. However, you made a claim and it's up to you to prove it. That's how it works.

 

Also, I am not a feminist. I don't have a feminist viewpoint. I have nothing to do with feminism. How you cannot grasp that is beyond me. And yet, you're arguing that I have a conception of feminism? I mean WTF? Seriously. Again, you obviously didn't read my post above and what I was 'debating' all these pages for. :-

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II
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