Puzzles in crpgs

[Lephys]

What does D&D have to do with any of this? Just look at the trap, those railings are wider than the player characters' hips. Bypassing that trap would be trivially easy in real life.

You're rather carelessly assuming that those railings aren't trapped as well, u_u...

[Silent Winter]

 

What does D&D have to do with any of this? Just look at the trap, those railings are wider than the player characters' hips. Bypassing that trap would be trivially easy in real life.

You're rather carelessly assuming that those railings aren't trapped as well, u_u..

 

LOL, that'd be awesome - give a nice easy path avoiding the traps, that's undetectably and lethally trapped

[Lephys]

"Guys... there's an obviously-secure metal hook anchored into the ceiling, up there. We'll just grapple that, and swing across. MAN we're geniuses!"

 

*Secures rope to ceiling hook, begins swinging... hears audible "click"...*

 

^_^

[5anitybane]

 

 

I don't care for puzzles.

 

Do you have a specific reason you could mention?  I'm curious because the statement is so vague, .

 

Hard to say really. More than anything they seem out of place most of the time. They don't really add much to the story.

 

So it's not exactly puzzles in games you dislike, but how they're implemented? Would you enjoy, say, a puzzle involving magic and a numerical sequence involving hand-eye coordination to slide things across a metal bar to open a vault, that was tied into the lore? Or would that be tedious as well?

[Lephys]

To toss in my two cents, I feel like puzzles in a cRPG should take advantage of your character's limitations, rather than focusing on directly challenging the player's limitations.

[5anitybane]

To toss in my two cents, I feel like puzzles in a cRPG should take advantage of your character's limitations, rather than focusing on directly challenging the player's limitations.

An interesting proposal, I agree but think maybe a blending of both challenging the player as well as requiring character proficiencies would work best? That way it ties into something not necessarily under your own control, thus requiring strategising for the situation, and also having to strategise if the problem is one requiring problem solving.

[neo6874]

 

 

I really only like puzzles when they make sense. Unfortunately they very rarely do.

 

While PoE looks awesome in so many ways, the floor tile trap puzzle in the first dungeon is really stupid. This is accentuated by the fact that it's only an obstacle because of engine limitations: in reality anyone could bypass that trap by just walking along one of the ledges on either side of it, and you could easily jump over at least one tile if necessary.

Which would require balance checks, lest you fall over the cliff to your doom, or onto the tiles themselves.

 

Assuming a "typical" railing, it'll be 6" wide at the most ... so, (D&D) DC is 15 (assuming no other obstructions, e.g. slippery, or loose stones, etc.). L1 character who didn't take any ranks will have a "fun" time making that (even a DEX=18 character still has a 50% fail chance).

 

 

What does D&D have to do with any of this? Just look at the trap, those railings are wider than the player characters' hips. Bypassing that trap would be trivially easy in real life.

 

 

D&D has nothing directly to do with it ... but we're (pretty much) all familiar with the mechanics, so makes sense to use those rules as "Typical RPG Rules" when we're talking about stuff that a player could (or should) do.

 

Anyway, I was mis-remembering the actual layout (I remembered it as "Trap tiles, with a small ledge/railing around the outside, and then abyss". Re-watching the video shows that I was only remembering the small/unbroken border blocks, and forgetting about the larger half-walls.)

[Lephys]

An interesting proposal, I agree but think maybe a blending of both challenging the player as well as requiring character proficiencies would work best? That way it ties into something not necessarily under your own control, thus requiring strategising for the situation, and also having to strategise if the problem is one requiring problem solving.

Oh, definitely! Sorry, I was a little vague. I literally meant that they shouldn't focus on the player's limitations. I think the player's limitations should be included, but the core of the puzzle should revolve around what you can or cannot do with your characters, etc.

 

Imagine dialogue as a puzzle, sort of. "I have this problem, but all I can do is talk to this guy, and all I can say is what my character can say, based on stats/skills/lore knowledge, etc.". Feels really good to figure out how to produce a certain outcome from dialogue, yet it essentially focuses on the knowledge and capabilities of your characters, rather than just quizzing the player for information.

 

I think that's a good approach.

[JFSOCC]

the best puzzles I've ever played still come from Riven and other Myst type games. They don't require language (for foreigners, idiomatic speech can and will ruin otherwise well crafted puzzles), they can be solved with both logic and intuition, and require you to pay attention to the environment to solve.

[Nonek]

Personally I have always been a fan of good wordplays and riddles, the Moredhel chests in Betrayal at Krondor were a nice little experiment in testing the old IQ. Gave up the mornings crossword to focus on those, refreshingly difficult.

[NWN_babaYaga]

All my favourite games back then were puzzle games so to say. All the sierra and lucas arts classics are based on solving puzzles but yeah i know that wouldnt realy work in a game like PoE. But using some sort of a dialogue riddle someone mentioned is a great idea. You have to get information about a specific person or creature before you should try to talk to him otherwise he just attack you because you dont know which question you have to ask or answer to give. so you have an option of just combat or getting that information from somewhere else etc. This is what i would call a classic roleplaying option.

[Logos]

I love puzzles in RPGs. They're an essential component of the experience for me. When I instruct my character to cast a fireball, I feel like I'm controlling a game most of the time. But when I'm solving a puzzle, I feel like I'm actually doing something of importance in the game world. Figuring out something secret, something hidden. That's a great experience.

[drusus82]

If the clues are in the environment or lore leading up to the puzzle it is good, ie you can find the answers in books you find or a repeating pattern in the dungeon actually opens a door. Random turnings of levers until the right pattern is formed is just frustrating (looking at you skyrim).

[Stun]

And what puzzles didn't you like?

All the puzzles in IWD2 were obnoxious. Fellwood was the least of it. The Monk trials in the Black Raven Monastery were probably the worst, followed by the various puzzles in the ice temple (the dias, the lightning cannon, etc) Thankfully, most of them had a "screw it, take the easy way out" option. (you could just kill the monks and take their key to the underdark, instead of having to endure all their trials)

 

BG1's Durlag's Tower probably had the best puzzles, mainly because they didn't feel like puzzles (talking about the sparring dummies/wardstone/Doppleganger level) BG2's watcher's keep had pretty decent puzzles as well.

 

Overall, I'd rather PoE not make puzzles a common fixture in their dungeons. Puzzles are Alright, and they fit just fine in classic fantasy RPGs. I just don't really derive all that much pleasure doing them.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Stun

[Sensuki]

Hope you guys all backed STASIS - An Indie Adventure Game in Space.

 

2D Backgrounds & music by Mark Morgan (Planescape Torment, Wasteland 2 etc)

 

IF NOT GO F'ING DO IT!!!!

 

 

[Guest 4ward]

the riddles and puzzles in BG2 is one of the reasons this game will always bring back fond memories. The riddles in the Spellhold maze for example where i'm being questioned like in a test and given several answers to choose from with only one being the right one. Those answers made me think not just which one is right but also why, they were memorable like a memorable character in the game. Also, i enjoyed the puzzles in that maze like placing items i found in a chest on the appropriate statue after reading the corresponding explanations/hints. Or the riddle in the sewers with the Beholder Cultists where i had to choose correct replies to cross the bridge. They could all be solved with common sense. I really hope that the team behind this game has looked at some areas of BG2 (Spellhold maze/Beholder sewers/watchers's keep/etc.) and recognized the value of riddles and puzzles.

[Caerdon]

For the past couple of weeks I've been occasionally trying to remember the puzzles the BG series had... and frankly, I can't remember a single one that'd make me think "yeah, that was a great puzzle!"

 

That's just not what I loved about those games. The puzzles were there, and I guess they were quite nice at best, but what I loved about the games was the sense of adventure, the plot, the combat, the villains, the companions, the exploration... and so many other unforgettable things I can't remember right now. But not puzzles.

 

That said, puzzles definitely serve a purpose. They're there to slow the pace down in between all the battles, they make you explore your surroundings, they introduce you to new bits of lore and history and they make you use your brain. However, I think they are used too often and too unimaginatively when other things could serve the same purpose better.