Questions about paladins

[Karkarov]

It's all about that thing called balance. No Holy Avengers.

Yeap.  Right to the point.  Holy Avenger's are op as crap weapons designed for the high level paladins who are fighting epicly powerful enemies like full on demons and liches.  Not level 8 paladins fighting bandits and generic skeletons+a mummy or two.

 

I also kind of echo Tajerio as well, I think the devs want to get away from some D&D tropes as well and class weapons is one of them.  I think the devs would be right too.  Let classes skills and abilities make them unique, not their ability to use a sword no one else can.

[illathid]

Even if there is no Holy Avenger class restricted super sword in game, I'd personally like for there to be a powerful holy sword. I think it's a important archetype that has existed since long before D&D was a thing (Excalibur, Durendal, etc. ). Not having one for holy paladins (or fighters, or barbarians) would be a missed opportunity IMHO.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Obsidian don't want specific OP items. There needs to be some balance. And if there was an OP item, everyone would just use that item and disregard the rest.

[Vaeliorin]

Given that paladins aren't tied to religion in any way, it wouldn't make any sense for them to include a Holy Avenger.  Heck, you could even theoretically have a paladin dedicated to the destruction of religion and the gods.  Would such a paladin be able to wield a Holy Avenger?  How would that make sense?

 

I could see deity tied-weapons for priests, but that seems rather unlikely.

 

Also, not having specific OP items is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.  If my character has spent their whole career using axes, for example, I shouldn't be punished in the end game because I want to keep using axes, even though the OP weapon is a sword.  As far as I'm concerned, there should be at least one top-tier weapon of each type that are all relatively equal in terms of power within their specific category (2-handers balanced against 2-handers, etc.)

[Sensuki]

Given that paladins aren't tied to religion in any way, it wouldn't make any sense for them to include a Holy Avenger.

 

Or a particular weapon, for that matter.

[Sabotin]

They could make some sort of more balanced tribute thing I think. A nice long history of great deeds, a small quest with a powerful foe, a famous sword. I'd say it's like a staple of rpgs .

 

The holy and maybe even the sword part don't really matter, I'm sure the writers can come up with a nice solution. Maybe the holy avenger's secret is that it feeds on the soul of the wearer to fuel it, thus only paladins with their burning souls can wield it effectively. Instead of a hard limitation it can be that you get different stat penalties or that it's more powerful in the hands of a paladin or both. And it kinda fits with the "singular purpose" of paladins and being martyrs for their cause.

 

 

As for the original question: I think multiple paladins in a group could be viable with those aura synergies, but I'm expecting that other classes will also complement each other, although maybe in less obvious way. Anyway if it's properly done, it should just make you better at certain scenarios and worse at others. I mean you could have 3 barbarians in front then, even with a lower accuracy they should altogether be hitting more often than 1 buffed? Or you could have enough crowd control to buy time for your damage dealers to deal with them one by one.

[Sarex]

It's all about that thing called balance. No Holy Avengers.

 

It's a single player game...

[Sensuki]

[Karkarov]

Even if there is no Holy Avenger class restricted super sword in game, I'd personally like for there to be a powerful holy sword. I think it's a important archetype that has existed since long before D&D was a thing (Excalibur, Durendal, etc. ). Not having one for holy paladins (or fighters, or barbarians) would be a missed opportunity IMHO.

I agree, there should be some sort of "holy sword" in there somewhere.  Why not a "holy battleaxe" too while we are at it?  That said it doesn't need to be so strong it is better than all other weapons, and it doesn't need to be restricted to one class.

 

 

 

It's all about that thing called balance. No Holy Avengers.

It's a single player game...

Right and if it weren't balanced and there were some bad ass weapon that was better than all other weapons in the game but only paladins could use it.... Everyone would not only go out of their way to get that one weapon, but everyone would have a paladin in their party too just to use it.  You may not think that matters but some players might want to... I don't know... not have a paladin?  Maybe the Dev's put in all this time on the classes too thinking you might try them all and not favor one over all others because it is simply "better" due to some metagame reason?  Maybe they want you to be excited about all their cool end game weapons, not just the holy avenger?

 

Not everyone just wants to cheese their way through a game.  Actual game balance helps make that possible, even in single player games.

[Sarex]

Right and if it weren't balanced and there were some bad ass weapon that was better than all other weapons in the game but only paladins could use it.... Everyone would not only go out of their way to get that one weapon, but everyone would have a paladin in their party too just to use it.  You may not think that matters but some players might want to... I don't know... not have a paladin?  Maybe the Dev's put in all this time on the classes too thinking you might try them all and not favor one over all others because it is simply "better" due to some metagame reason?  Maybe they want you to be excited about all their cool end game weapons, not just the holy avenger?

 

Not everyone just wants to cheese their way through a game.  Actual game balance helps make that possible, even in single player games.

 

So because a game has the HA you can't enjoy it? Lol, that's like a kid seeing some other kid having toy he doesn't have and throwing a tantrum. BG2, IWD2 and NWN2 all had the HA and it didn't make any of those games any less for having them.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I wouldn't mind seeing a Holy Avenger type sword in a sequel, but we won't see it in this game as the characters are low level. It's way too OP as it's usually a +5 sword and this game only goes up to the equivalent of +3. And I very much doubt we would see it in a sequel due to Josh likes to have a degree of balance between the classes and items. Having one OP weapon for a specific class goes against his views.

[Sarex]

I wouldn't mind seeing a Holy Avenger type sword in a sequel, but we won't see it in this game as the characters are low level. It's way too OP as it's usually a +5 sword and this game only goes up to the equivalent of +3. And I very much doubt we would see it in a sequel due to Josh likes to have a degree of balance between the classes and items. Having one OP weapon for a specific class goes against his views.

 

As I said, I get that and wouldn't mind if it was left for the sequel. As for Josh, well he had it in IWD2, I don't see why he can't have it in PoE2.

[Sensuki]

Because PE isn't Forgotten Realms

[Elerond]

PoE's campaign end when characters are in middle levels, if we use D&D's zero to legendary scale, so weapons like Holy Avenger are in my opinion too high level to show up in the game.

 

And holy legendary sword is one of those fantasy tropes that probably would not miss if it didn't exist in PoE. But if there needs to be legendary weapon that is more powerful than any other weapons I would prefer it would have some not so common type for legendary weapon in fantasy for example spear like Gae Bolga (kill brutally any one that is hit by it) or bow like Ichaival (every arrow that is shot by it multiples to ten arrows) or dagger like Carnwennan (gives bearer ability to shroud themselves).

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I found the loot to be terrible in IWD2.

 

Boots up IWD2. Looking at my characters in IWD 2 just before the final fight. Wow, Some of my characters are still using +3 weapons. Looking further, the Axe +4 was just an axe that gave +4 to hit and damage. That's it. The Great Axe of Might +5 was just an axe that gave +5 to hit and damage. That's it. Whereas you look at BG2 and their +4 and +5 weapons and they have additional things on their weapons. eg. BG2's +5 Axe of the Unyielding with AC+1, Con +1, regen 3HP per round, 10% chance to decapitate. Comparing both, Josh is against OP weapons.

 

Also, the Obsidian dev's do consider additional abilities on weapons like in BG2 to be 'game breaking' in their words. They're not going to allow game breaking items, especially an overpowered item for a specific class when the others classes don't get that weapon. It just won't happen and it won't happen in a sequel. Prepare yourself for disappointment if you want BG2 type stuff in a sequel. No Holy Avenger.

[Sarex]

Because PE isn't Forgotten Realms

 

So? You don't really think that the Holy Avenger originated with D&D and the forgotten realms? If we have classical class archetypes, then there should also be a Holy Avenger.

 

I found the loot to be terrible in IWD2.

 

Boots up IWD2. Looking at my characters in IWD 2 just before the final fight. Wow, Some of my characters are still using +3 weapons. Looking further, the Axe +4 was just an axe that gave +4 to hit and damage. That's it. The Great Axe of Might +5 was just an axe that gave +5 to hit and damage. That's it. Whereas you look at BG2 and their +4 and +5 weapons and they have additional things on their weapons. eg. BG2's +5 Axe of the Unyielding with AC+1, Con +1, regen 3HP per round, 10% chance to decapitate. Comparing both, Josh is against OP weapons.

 

Also, the Obsidian dev's do consider additional abilities on weapons like in BG2 to be 'game breaking' in their words. They're not going to allow game breaking items, especially an overpowered item for a specific class when the others classes don't get that weapon. It just won't happen and it won't happen in a sequel. Prepare yourself for disappointment if you want BG2 type stuff in a sequel. No Holy Avenger.

 

Nothing to prepare my self for, PoE is a harking back to the IE games, IE games had the HA. The only question is name, power and class restriction. I'm finding a lot of personal opinions here stated as facts. You guys may not like the HA but I assure you many of us do. As had been said numerous times if you don't like it don't use it.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Sarex

[Sensuki]

So? You don't really think that the Holy Avenger originated with D&D and the forgotten realms? If we have classical class archetypes, then there should also be a Holy Avenger.

I think PE can do much better than that. Paladins are not of the gods in PE, but of Organizations. You could have a different legendary weapon for different organizations or something instead. Really has to make sense in the lore, I'm not sure whether the PE writers would think it to be "sensible" that Paladin orders have lost their artifacts.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[Leferd]

You know, there were some 50+ backers whose rewards included the designing of arms/armor. It's conceivable somebody came up with a HA type weapon in some form. Unlikely, but not inconceivable.

 

I'm still banking on the Holy Hand Grenade to kill those pesky wabbits.

[illathid]

 

Even if there is no Holy Avenger class restricted super sword in game, I'd personally like for there to be a powerful holy sword. I think it's a important archetype that has existed since long before D&D was a thing (Excalibur, Durendal, etc. ). Not having one for holy paladins (or fighters, or barbarians) would be a missed opportunity IMHO.

I agree, there should be some sort of "holy sword" in there somewhere.  Why not a "holy battleaxe" too while we are at it?  That said it doesn't need to be so strong it is better than all other weapons, and it doesn't need to be restricted to one class.

 

Yeah. Holy battle axe would be fine as long as there's a holy sword. And your right it doesn't need to be better than all other weapons, but I think it should still be a top tier weapon.

[Sarex]

I think PE can do much better than that. Paladins are not of the gods in PE, but of Organizations. You could have a different legendary weapon for different organizations or something instead. Really has to make sense in the lore, I'm not sure whether the PE writers would think it to be "sensible" that Paladin orders have lost their artifacts.

 

Maybe, but again the game is supposed to be a harking back to the IE games and a big part of being a Paladin in the IE games was quest for the HA. They were kind of the staple quest of those games.

[Sensuki]

There are no class specific quests in PE though (due to budget reasons). Maybe for PE 2. There's also no item restrictions either. Class items are non-weapons.

[Sarex]

There are no class specific quests in PE though (due to budget reasons). Maybe for PE 2. There's also no item restrictions either. Class items are non-weapons.

 

The weapon doesn't have to be class restricted in the traditional sense of you being unable to pick it up, as I said before you can make it be an ordinary sword for any other class. Also I don't have my heart set on it being in PoE, but I would really expect/like it to be in the sequel.

 

In the end if they are really dead set against any class restrictions in any way, shape and form they could make it be a Holy Sword that anyone can wield. But I don't see a reason for being that set against class weapons.

 

Btw are wands and scrolls class specific?

Edited June 29, 2014 by Sarex

[Sensuki]

Wands are not class specific. Grimoires are.

 

I don't believe you can cast from scrolls in PE. In fact we aren't even sure if there are consumable scrolls in the game.

[Quetzalcoatl]

It doesn't seem like the setting/lore will support anything 'holy' (which I think is pretty cool).

Edited June 29, 2014 by Quetzalcoatl

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Nothing to prepare my self for, PoE is a harking back to the IE games, IE games had the HA. The only question is name, power and class restriction. I'm finding a lot of personal opinions here stated as facts. You guys may not like the HA but I assure you many of us do. As had been said numerous times if you don't like it don't use it.

 

I'm with you in that if you don't like it don't use it. Even my IWD2 party I booted up doesn't have a Paladin and can't use the Holy Avenger. Same with BG2 and having various parties without a Paladin. I don't see Carsomyr as the be all and end all and many times I never used it. I don't necessarily agree that you will always have a Paladin in your party due to one OP weapon in the game for a specific class. However, at least one dev has stated weapons that have overpowered abilities are quote 'game breaking' and would need to be rebalanced. And that's a quote, not my opinion. So if Obsidian don't want an overpowered weapon for every class because they see it as game breaking, they won't entertain the possibility of a single class specific weapon like the Holy Avenger. As much as it disappoints a lot of people, we won't see it.