Level of epicness

[nomadan]

 

Hello, I want to ask a question about the levels in the game and its compliance with the levels of games based on the D&D. As we know, in games like Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, etc. levels 1 to 10 were considered low-level, from 10 to 20 classic heroic adventure with dragons and princesses, and  all above - it is gods, plains, epic. In Pillars of Eternity only 12 levels, and I do not understand how these levels are taken. So, the question itself - Pillars of Eternity is a low-level adventure in the style of Baldur's Gate 1, midrange as Baldur's Gate 2, or epic as Throne of Bhaal or Mask of the Betrayer? My question concerns the type of enemies, the ability to influence events in a particular country or the whole world, the possibility to switch to another plane of existence, and so on.
English is not my native language, so I had to use Google translator, I apologize in advance if something is unclear or a similar topic already created.

Edited June 19, 2014 by nomadan

[Quadrone]

As far as I know Josh has previously stated that PoE ist a low-mid level campaign.

So I guess levels are roughly equivalent in power to levels in D&D.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Quadrone

[J.E. Sawyer]

It should feel like BG + ToSC or maybe IWD minus a few levels.  It's not as high-powered as BG2.

[Urthor]

It's not as high-powered as BG2 Pillars of Eternity 2.

 

J.E. Sawyer quotes from the future.

 

I mean in many ways this is just reflecting Baldur's Gate isn't it.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Urthor

[J.E. Sawyer]

Baldur's Gate without TotSC was pretty limited, level-wise.  89k XP in 2nd Ed. only gets you to 7th or 8th level, depending on class.

[Urthor]

ye I mean to say you're reflecting the fact that Baldur's Gate was designed as a low level adventure preceding a high level adventure, and to some extent you're preserving that idea with Pillars in that the main game will be a lower level than expansions and sequels.  

 

Baldur's Gate 1-8

 

Tales of the Sword Coast, 8-12ish

 

Baldur's Gate 2, you could create a character with 89k XP, putting you at 7-8, or import your Tales of the Sword Coast character at lvl 12, giving it a range of 8-20+ altho the cap meant you could go very high, but you'd stop gaining a lot of rewards.

Throne of Bhaal obv just provided for characters 20+

 

 

You're reflecting that model of releases, but allowing it to arch to level 12 means there's still quite a bit of medium level bite there potentially, not just low level stuff, so people will get the opportunity to play around with some moderately strong stuff. 

Edited June 21, 2014 by Urthor

[Sensuki]

TotSC was 161K xp, giving ranges of 8-10

[curryinahurry]

It should feel like BG + ToSC or maybe IWD minus a few levels.  It's not as high-powered as BG2.

 

Josh, I have a question for you,

 

I'm replaying IWD + Expansions now (very slowly), and I'm thinking that I will finish with my party somewhere around 14th level.  PoE is supposed to take our party to 12th, if we're completionist; that is my understanding from what I've read.  

 

Also, in one of the E3 interviews, I think you mentioned that there would be 140 maps in this game vs 80 some-odd in IWD.

 

Between this, and the stated size of the game content as being, "larger than BG1", I'm wondering about how pacing will be handled with regards to character progression.  I think most of us are cool with the idea of slower levelling, but too slow could begin to feel like grinding or mining for XP.  I wonder if you folks are implementing any mechanics, perks, content, etc. to make our characters feel like they are progressing; even if it is in small increments.

[Sabotin]

I don't think the speed of leveling is the thing that determines if it feels like a grind or not.

 

I can't really remember how it was with the first IWD specifically, but DnD games in general rushed you through the first 3/4 levels. I believe there's some room for "smoothing out" and extending the leveling curve here, since the game is using a custom system with less variance.

[curryinahurry]

Certainly that will help.  But PoE has been stated to be 'considerably larger than Baldur's Gate' which was 40 to 60 hour game not including TotSC.  Even with a gentler power curve, we're looking at any where between 6 and 10 hours at each level depending on gameplay style.  It might not be a big deal in-game as there are plenty of other things to do, but one of the core elements of CRPG's is character progression and the sense getting more competent/powerful.  

 

I'm personally interested if the folks at Obsidian have found the rate of levelling to be satisfying in this regard, or that it might need the insertion of the occasional perk or reward (beyond loot) for pacing purposes.  This might be included in the form of books, training opportunities, quests related to the stronghold, or special faction side quests.  

Edited June 21, 2014 by curryinahurry

[Sabotin]

I'm hoping for some extra stuff as well. I think they've mentioned somewhere that chanters will be able to find extra verses through the world so I'm hoping for similar things for other classes, too. NWN2 had those achievement type feats and DS3 had those small bonuses accumulated throughout the storyline, stuff like that. Even BG had you get those dream abilities.

[Sensuki]

Certainly that will help.  But PoE has been stated to be 'considerably larger than Baldur's Gate' which was 40 to 60 hour game not including TotSC.

They've quoted 140+ maps in PE (interiors and exteriors). Baldur's Gate 1 (not including TotSC) has 106 maps in the areas folder, but there's possibly a few more.

 

Content Density in Baldur's Gate however is rather thin, so apart from walking speed/travel time, it doesn't take that long to do most of the content. Most quests are also VERY simple.

 

PE won't be like this.

[curryinahurry]

^ Right, that's sort of my point.  BG2 had over 300 areas, but a lot were quite small; likely a limitation of the technology.  Considering the anticipated size of PoE, I'm a bit concerned about pacing.  I tend to feel most of the newer crpgs tend to level too fast, but playing through IWD, with a party having just reached 9th level, I'm being reminded that in the IE games the opposite becomes a bit of an issue after a certain point.  

 

Of course Sabotin's point about the inherent issue in D&D is a valid one, but I'm curious to know, now that the game is in beta, if 6 to 10 hours per level feels satisfactory or a bit too slow.

Edited June 23, 2014 by curryinahurry

[Sensuki]

Yeah I am with you there. That's why I was hoping they would use something like the Fighter's AD&D XP table rather than the 3E/4E ones. Granted those are just numbers and the thing that really matters is the amount of Quest XP you get, but to get to the next level you needed double the XP up to a certain point

 

eg 0,2000,4000,8000,16000,32000, 64000, 125000

 

BG2 had over 300 maps? jeez. I don't have it installed so I can't check.

[Sensuki]

I just did a rough count then, it's somewhere around 275 (Shadows of Amn). But yeah a lot of those are small interiors.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Sensuki

[Karkarov]

Didn't some of the people who got E3 showings say in their reviews that max level was 8?

[Sensuki]

no? It's 12

[nomadan]

 

So, the first part of the game will be a low-level adventure, we realized it. The creators of the game have plans for continuation or addition with more high-level content or at this stage to ask such questions is simply meaningless?

[curryinahurry]

PoE will have a guaranteed expansion and will hopefully be the beginning of a series.  The expansion will likely build on the original game and use the same characters, but we don't know if the next installment might continue or protagonists' adventures, or start with new characters in a different part of the continent/ world.  Also, we don't know at what level our characters will be considered 'legendary' or 'epic'.  

 

D&D had a fairly steep power curve for its classes (especially casters) and was geared towards pen and paper gameplay.  PoE is geared towards the computer, and will likely have a shallower power curve than D&D.  This might mean that level 20 becomes 'high level' and level 30 or 40 becomes 'legendary' or 'epic'.

[Sensuki]

I think it was said to be somewhere between BG and IWD which is fine. I enjoyed the BG1 leveling rate and IWD1 was slightly too fast.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I'm wondering how the expansion is going to affect the main game. TotSC added another one/two levels to different classes due to the different xp tables in 2nd ed. With a unified xp table in PoE, perhaps you'll also level up one or two levels? And how will this affect the end battle? Even with TotSC installed, and hitting the level cap of 161K, the fight was still challenging. I enjoyed BG1 levelling even when I did hit the cap.

 

Maybe it'd be a good idea to have the illusion of progressing with a high xp table than a low xp table. If it's a low xp table, it will feel like a grind. If it's a high xp table, you'll feel like you're progressing even though it's exactly the same progress. Big numbers look nice even though it's an illusion.

[Lephys]

Maybe it'd be a good idea to have the illusion of progressing with a high xp table than a low xp table. If it's a low xp table, it will feel like a grind. If it's a high xp table, you'll feel like you're progressing even though it's exactly the same progress. Big numbers look nice even though it's an illusion.

That effect is rather short-term. When you complete a quest and receive 10,000XP instead of 100XP, yeah, it seems like you've made more progress than you have. But, when you still have to complete 15 quests to gain a level, that bigger number is just going to make it feel like you should've gained about 3 levels already, in the long, while that smaller number will make you say "Oh, wow, but I haven't even gotten that much XP yet!"

[Hiro Protagonist II]

As I said, it's about creating the illusion. And your constant extreme examples don't help. If the illusion is subtle, then a lot of gamers may not notice it and actually enjoy the level progression.

 

How about 1000xp instead of 100xp for a quest. 1000xp still sounds like a lot but not too much when compared to the IE games. The main end chapterquests in BG1 were around 1000-2000xp. Some even got up to 4000xp.

 

But if you're only getting 10xp for a small quest and 100xp for an end of chapter quest, it looks painful to do so much work for a measly 100xp. Whereas, 1000xp or 2000xp seems like a lot. 10,000xp is just extreme when compared to BG1 which is what we should be comparing it to. If the numbers of the xp look to low, it will feel like a grind. If you up the xp rewards but also up the Character xp table, it then presents an illusion of progressing even though it's the same. It's all about subtlety.

[Lephys]

I think my extreme examples do exactly what they're supposed to do. Did you not comprehend the inherent relationship I was expressing between the size of the awarded experience value and the long-term "feeling" of leveling pace? If not, then why didn't you say that?

 

You're the one arbitrarily deciding that my example fails if ExampleNumber != BG1-feasibility. You might as well tell me my hammer's useless simply because it's no good for sawing boards in half.

 

Also, what you've pointed out with this whole "illusion" of progress is our inherent perception of the relativistic value of numbers. Thus, subtlety has nothing to do with it. The value we place on a number is diretly proportionate to the size of the number. If we could gain 1XP for everything, and level up every 10XP, or we could gain 2 XP for everything and gain a level every 20 XP, that's 2 versus that 1 is perceived as twice the progress, in the moment.

 

Thus, the higher the number, the greater the effect.

 

The illusion of the immediate viewing of a single number and the feeling of progress associated with that is all about the size of that number, not "subtlety."

 

If you're in a car that goes 10 miles per hour, and you have to go 100 miles, versus being in a car traveling 100 miles per hour and having to go 1,000 miles... which speed do you think feels like you're making more progress than you are? You think it should be 20mph, instead of 100? Because it's more subtle, it has a greater effect on human perception than actually moving even faster does?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

To keep it in context, it's always good to go off a model or something previous that actually worked. eg. BG1.