(mini?) Update tomorrow / PE E3 stuff

[Blarghagh]

Are there any YouTubers that really do well for RPGs? Pretty much any YouTuber I watch does multiplayer strategy or horror/novelty games.

[Osvir]

I can't follow your post Darji. Are you saying previews are going to fade away?

@TrueNeutral: I don't know anyone either.. well, AngryJoe got in on an interview and I think he's branching more and more onto the PC, or maybe that was the PS4? JesseCox and wowcrendor (I know Jesse does Lets Plays of rpgs) were at E3 but I don't know if they were at Obsidians backroom showing... dodger and Felicia Day was at E3 as well.. last time TotalBiscuit did an RPG was a Kingdoms of Amalur promotion and he said in that one that "I don't have time to do RPGs anymore, I want to, but I simply don't have the time"... there was probably more people there too that's outside my radar~

 

I don't think there's anyone who covers RPGs primarily as their YouTube trade. Northernlion got the roguelikes, AngryJoe got Xbox, TotalBiscuit does a lot of indies (but also some AAA titles), Jesse plays a lot of different games, mostly(only?) Lets Play stuff~ gets covered over time. Pillars of Eternity could be a great fit for JesseCox because he does the whole episodic thing... good long-term exposure but maybe not the best coverage with Lets Play+Commentary.

RPGs are hard to cover in a first-impression video I think.

The Polaris Network is like, the first big YouTube Gaming News Network... I guess? They try to do the press thing at least. They might have someone maybe.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Osvir

[Blarghagh]

Yeah, the only Let's Player that readily comes to mind that does a lot of RPGs is ChristopherOdd, but his channel is pretty small.

[Darji]

Are there any YouTubers that really do well for RPGs? Pretty much any YouTuber I watch does multiplayer strategy or horror/novelty games.

Twitch streamer do RPGs really really well like Dansgaming who has at peaks 10k viewers for special stuff and 3k average on each day.  HE also has a YouTube channel of course. If a game is great people with a lot of viewers will play it no matter what since they need a lot of content each day.

 

Twitch however would be a much better fit for Obsidian. Like a Live Demo stream etc. 

 

And yes Osvir: I am saying written previews and even reviews will fade away.  They are being replaced by video content, shows and other visual media opportunities. like video interviews. 

Edited June 18, 2014 by Darji

[Blarghagh]

I'll check him out, thanks.

[Osvir]

I had forgotten about this guy, itmeJP. He does D&D. I also found this guy, ZiggyD Gaming~ Path of Exile & Diablo 3 it seems. He does have an abandoned Baldur's Gate LP which doesn't look too good. I don't know, you could throw Obsidian/Paradox (the one in charge of the marketing) a bone about these guys maybe TrueNeutral?

AngryJoe+TotalBiscuit though, they do in-depth coverage, that's the best stuff in my opinion... Lets Plays are a bit... ugh... but I can't deny that they generate exposure.

EDIT: And the Yogscast

Edited June 18, 2014 by Osvir

[Darji]

One I have forgotten is Tornis. He play really a lot of really complex and hardcore games. His Divinity: Original sins beta stream had like 800-1000 viewers if I remember correctly. He is not a professional streamer since he can not make a living yet but he also often promotes pretty unknown indy games with a lot of RPG aspects as well. 

 

And ItmeJP is great as well yeah. HE has the best or most famous D&D show on the net. If you like D&D check it out its called Rollplay on Youtube.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Darji

[Karkarov]

AngryJoe is all about RPG's and plays the PC plenty.  Not only that but he regularly looks at kickstarter too.  You could do a ton worse than throwing him some Eternity stuff.

[NWN_babaYaga]

I could only watch 2 reviews from the angry joe dude and after that i had enough. He seems to me making a war out of reviewing a game and yells to much for me. Like i said... he sounds as if his live depends on a game rather then cool down a bit, show this and that and give a pro / con statement with the facts. Nothing against diveristy in everything and he is somewhat a special guy but definately not my cup of tea.

[nipsen]

From the article:

 

Having said that, he[Jesse Cox/Angry Joe] adds, "In the last year or so they have been reaching out. Which gives us hope. But to say that YouTubers are as important as written press I think is a misnomer. To indie games, yes, very much so. But the big AAA companies are still not sure what to make of us."

:/ ....Because he's unpredictable.

 

Funny thing to say, really. EA, Paradox, Blizzard, other publishers, are all well known for drawing up sponsorship deals with youtubers. At the most respectful, these are open agreements that require a number of videos every week, containing at least such and such many percent gameplay, within a certain timeframe of the launch-window, etc. With suggestions for what might be problematic with the content filter, if anything, and where the music should be scrambled, what sort of logos might not be shown, what content is unlocked, etc.

 

At the other end is EA's deals with people like LevelCap, where they essentially pay him to post content, given that he avoids anything that can be interpreted as being "pre-launch difficulties". Which of course is everything negative about the game. EA has a great tradition on doing blackouts on specific types of negative content - for example making it a demand in their beta-tests that no one signing the nda are to talk about network issues. That actually happened. An online game - but you're not allowed to talk about problems with the network solution. EA themselves won't talk to the press if they mention network problems, or perhaps servers on the opposite end of the world used for load-balancing during the peak hours.

 

So youtube isn't a complete unknown. It's just that some of the most popular channels are critical voices who will rid themselves of their entire viewership if they stop being critical. Seen several channels with people who had a good run, but lost all their viewers when entering a sponsorship agreement with a distribution portal, for example. This is a well-known thing. Meanwhile, people like Joe and Totalbiscuit will still have a good pay from their youtube channel even if all the major publishers hate their guts.

 

Funny how that works out, isn't it. When being beholden to your readers - or at least to advertisers that aren't directly attached to what you're covering - makes you useless for publishing purposes in the games-industry.

 

Seriously, if someone had told me thirteen years ago that this is how things would work out in the future, I'd be laughing at them. But then this it actually happens anyway..

Edited June 18, 2014 by nipsen

[Sensuki]

Watching youtubers lol, couldn't think of anything more boring.

 

Speaking of which Bethesda blanket banned RPG Codex content and even the mere mention of the word after Oblivion came out on their forums.

 

Pretty sure they even got reviews taken down online as well.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Sensuki

[Darji]

Watching youtubers lol, couldn't think of anything more boring.

 

Speaking of which Bethesda blanket banned RPG Codex content and even the mere mention of the word after Oblivion came out on their forums.

 

Pretty sure they even got reviews taken down online as well.

You watch these because of the personalities. Not really because of the games.  If you want to watch the game only you could watch a random non commentary playthough but that is not what people after. But yeah I agree Youtubers are a bit boring Live streamers on the other hand are very addicting because they also build a huge community and the streamer interacts with these people a lot. 

[Sensuki]

Literally every single person I've seen who does casual games is a wanker. But then again I don't even watch normal TV for "personalities" either.

The funniest guy I've listened to is the guy who did the Dark Sun Shattered Lands Let's Play. 

Edited June 18, 2014 by Sensuki

[Karkarov]

You watch these because of the personalities. Not really because of the games.  If you want to watch the game only you could watch a random non commentary playthough but that is not what people after. But yeah I agree Youtubers are a bit boring Live streamers on the other hand are very addicting because they also build a huge community and the streamer interacts with these people a lot.

I disagree.  They aren't mutually exclusive things and in my experience streamers are far more pandering than youtube people (except maybe whats his face who is worthless for the purposes of this conversation anyway).  You can always run a forum, reply to viewers in comments, and so on with Youtube.  Twitch is where it gets stupidly boring because you can't edit out that uninteresting busy work clip, or compensate for that internet bug you just had that caused your stream to crash.

 

Meanwhile it isn't like any of this is a means to money or fame.  For every TotalBuiscit there is a million or more people you have never heard of who have no viewership to speak of.

[NWN_babaYaga]

Getting OT quite a bit but a guy named Toegoff on youtube did cool let´s plays. He talks a bit to much like everyone but he´s calm and no power player, just an ordinary guy who likes RPGs...has done some Oldschool games too. So whenever i watch some let´s play i make sure someone likes quest for glory and the SSI games too... then I know he´s kinda on my taste of games that are little legends for me already

 

And holly molly about streamers... when they dont self advertize they ... no sorry. Not my kind of people! I stick to adults who have no need for a big "I am" and feed of their illusionary fan croud...

Edited June 18, 2014 by NWN_babaYaga

[Darji]

 

You watch these because of the personalities. Not really because of the games.  If you want to watch the game only you could watch a random non commentary playthough but that is not what people after. But yeah I agree Youtubers are a bit boring Live streamers on the other hand are very addicting because they also build a huge community and the streamer interacts with these people a lot.

I disagree.  They aren't mutually exclusive things and in my experience streamers are far more pandering than youtube people (except maybe whats his face who is worthless for the purposes of this conversation anyway).  You can always run a forum, reply to viewers in comments, and so on with Youtube.  Twitch is where it gets stupidly boring because you can't edit out that uninteresting busy work clip, or compensate for that internet bug you just had that caused your stream to crash.

 

Meanwhile it isn't like any of this is a means to money or fame.  For every TotalBuiscit there is a million or more people you have never heard of who have no viewership to speak of.

 

These people are  professional entertainer and so is their equipment and their presentation. You will not see much busy work in their streams. Maybe 2 minutes when they start a new game but that's it.  And they actually make a living out of this.   MAnvsGame as annoying he maybe be made a bit over 100k last year. And the reason for that is that he has build a community which pays tons of money each month to support him but also let them able to use the chat function during his streams.  Dansgaming is in the same category even though he has to stream a bit more than ManvsGame for his revenue.

 

Of course all of this is nothing against PewDiePie from YouTube. He plays really random **** but I think he has the most subscribers on YouTube. Over 27 million subscribers and with his short 15-20 minute videos he made 4 million Pounds in 2013 which is really insane.  And honestly I do not know why.   He was also the guy who made Flappy bird to what it became in the end. I think PewDiePie also got South Park  1 or 2 weeks earlier from Obsidian to play the beginning of the game. Which was a perfect fit of course. 

 

To be famous or to get many view you need to have personality on YouTube as well as twitch. There are a lot of people with 0-5 viewers streaming games. You need to have something special so people will watch your stuff instead other. 

[Karkarov]

To be famous or to get many view you need to have personality on YouTube as well as twitch. There are a lot of people with 0-5 viewers streaming games. You need to have something special so people will watch your stuff instead other. 

The word you are looking for is "gimmick".  Pewdiepie has no personality, he is just a cliche.  In some ways I pity the guy cause he is the ultimate example of a youtube person who will lose all of his following if he changes his schtick.  He acts like a 5 year old moron and that's why people watch him, which says something pretty bad about his viewers if anything.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Addition to already mentioned games these also have 90% or better score in metacritic.

 

1999 Age of Empires II: The Age of Kings (Metacritic 92%)

1999 FreeSpace 2 (Metacritic 91%)

1999 Medal of Honor (Metacritic 92%)

1999 Tony Hawk's Pro Skater (Metacritic 92%)

1999 Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver (Metacritic 91%)

1999 Ape Escape (Metacritic 90%)

1999 Street Fighter Alpha 3 (Metacritic 93%)

1999 Syphon Filter (Metacritic 90%)

1999 Donkey Kong 64 (Metacritic 90%)

1999 Rayman 2: The Great Escape (Metacritic 90%)

1999 Beetle Adventure Racing (Metacritic 90%)

1999 Mario Golf (Metacritic 91%)

1999 SoulCalibur (Metacritic 98%)

1999 Gran Turismo 2 (Metacritic 93%)

1999 Final Fantasy VIII (Metacritic 90%)

 

Thanks Elerond for proving my point, still not as many as the 29 games that hit the 90 mark last year in 2013.

http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/score/metascore/year/all?year_selected=2013

[Hiro Protagonist II]

To give a fun comparison so far in the year of 2014.... a whopping seven whole games across all platforms have hit 90 or better and we are half way through the year.  The kicker?  Three of them are iOs games that likely don't have to meet anything resembling hard standards.  Example... highest reviewed game of the year so far is VVVVVV, no I am not joking, on iOs it metacritics a insane 96.  This is a game that already came out on PC and 3ds over a year ago.  The best part?  The 3ds and PC versions strangely metacritic in the 80's.  Wonder the standards are a little lighter with those app game reviewers?

 

 

Make that 15 games that have hit the 90 mark and we still have the rest of the year to go.

http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/score/metascore/year/all?year_selected=2014

 

And games do score differently on different platforms. So you can't discount one platform like iOs.

 

You even said, "Also finding scores would help a lot if you look at something other than just pc games.  Just saying consoles exist and have games too." Just like other platforms including iOs exist too.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing a graph of games for each year that have scored over 90 for the past 15 or so years and actually see if games did score better in the past than they do now. It would be interesting to see.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Karkarov]

Make that 15 games that have hit the 90 mark and we still have the rest of the year to go.

http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/score/metascore/year/all?year_selected=2014

 

And games do score differently on different platforms. So you can't discount one platform like iOs.

 

You even said, "Also finding scores would help a lot if you look at something other than just pc games.  Just saying consoles exist and have games too." Just like other platforms including iOs exist too.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing a graph of games for each year that have scored over 90 for the past 15 or so years and actually see if games did score better in the past than they do now. It would be interesting to see.

Yeah I blatantly stated I included iOs in my post, it still doesn't also excuse the fact that the iOs games had far fewer reviewers on them with far softer standards.  Also you do realize that list is still only 11 games when you throw out the duplicates?  Also 6 of those 11 are again... the very low standard iOs platform.  I only harp on this cause.... there wasn't a iOs platform that gave cake reviews back in '99.  You had to be a good game to get a good score back then, just not like today where you have to be great to get good results.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Karkarov

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Yeah I blatantly stated I included iOs in my post, it still doesn't also excuse the fact that the iOs games had far fewer reviewers on them with far softer standards.  Also you do realize that list is still only 11 games when you throw out the duplicates?  Also 6 of those 11 are again... the very low standard iOs platform.  I only harp on this cause.... there wasn't a iOs platform that gave cake reviews back in '99. 

 

My mistake, there's 11 when you discount the duplicates. But we're only in June and still have another 6 months to go. And it looks like there's some great games coming out later this year on all platforms. Also, you wanting to discount iOs is funny. There were also low standard platforms 15 years ago. Some were good, some weren't. You're willing to accept other platforms 15 years ago to boost numbers, to accept all platforms back then. But today, you want to pick and choose what platforms are acceptable. Also, some of those platforms 15 years ago don't exist today.

 

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

 

You had to be a good game to get a good score back then, just not like today where you have to be great to get good results.

 

No. Lets have a look at 2010. Excluding duplicates, I count 43 games. I may have missed one or two but that was the biggest year I can see with so many games hitting the 90% mark.

http://www.metacritic.com/browse/games/score/metascore/year/all?year_selected=2010

 

 

 

 

 

 

And you're going to discount games like Monkey Island 2 and Grand Theft Auto on the iOs because you don't like the platform? So Ipads are no longer valid according to you. You can also buy BG2:EE on the Ipad. Wasn't it you who said BG2:EE got a terrible score and now you're saying iOs give cake reviews? That should have boosted BG2:EE's score if that was the case. And Metacritic takes scores from various websites. Now you want to blame all those reviewers from various sites for giving 'cake reviews'?  As I said, you can't pick and choose platforms today and then count them all 15 years ago. There's a lot of gamers who play on the Ipad today and you can't discount those gamers..

Edited June 19, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[talharbash]

Any chance at all the derailing will stop and we stay on topic for the e3 update?

 

If you want to have an in depth discussion on video game coverage start a thread in an appropriate forum.

Edited June 19, 2014 by talharbash

[Sensuki]

just ignore the perpetrators (like I have)

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/index.php?app=core&module=usercp&tab=core&area=ignoredusers

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Yeah, if you don't like it, put me on ignore.

[Sensuki]

Anyway, Gfted1 et al., can you please do your job and lock this thread. I'm gonna start a new one for the actual articles.