The morality of Animancy

[aluminiumtrioxid]

If so much research and interest is placed in the utilization of the souls of "humans" (mortals) in various applications, imagine what one could do with the soul of a "god."

 

Now I'm suddenly overcame with a desire to throw all that goody-two-shoes morality thing to the wind, and get my hands on a godsoul to experiment with.

 

For science!

 

(That should totally be a paladin battle cry.)

[Nonek]

If the prize is so great and so beneficial to all humanity as godhood and all that entails, then what morality will stay your hand while pursuing it? The Animancer looking down on all humanity watches wars and plagues sweep over them, and the endless cycle of birth, death and rebirth grind even the strongest personalities into dust, what matters a few more Souls? Not even ripples in the ocean, ants scurrying all unknowing about their lives as Orson Welles would point out from his Ferris wheel in the Third Man, would a single ant being removed from the schedule really affect anything.

 

You can see where such dark thoughts might lead an intelligent Animancer, and why he might think that he is the good man in the long run.

 

Edit: with the gods silent on the matter perhaps they do not even know the answers, about themselves or anything else, perhaps they simply exist and have influence and that along with continued worship is all they desire. To survive like the rest of us.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Nonek

[Nonek]

One has to ask what is the day to day research and practice of an Animancer, we have the obviously rather unusual (so one assumes) case outlined in Update #73, but what of his more mundane role? Obviously the name hints at this, the Anima refers to life force, personality and the Soul, as was used in Aristotle's famous work, so what does he do outside of the morally dubious known example?

 

Is the Animancer a Physician's counterpart, it may seem ridiculous to us but in the world of Poe mayhap such things are needed, with steampunk gadgets, strange Frankenstein-like apparatus, smoke and mirrors maybe an Animancer can cure what ails the Soul, or recommend some course of action that would be beneficial. Past lives still haunting the Psyche that require some form of resolution, cracks and weaknesses in the architecture of the metaphysical, the removal of curses and hauntings that a Soul has accrued through fair deeds or foul, can he cure or mitigate these and others?

 

It would be nice to see another side to the practice rather than just that outlined in the Undeath example, to gain a more rounded view of the profession, then again there is the thrill of discovery upon release to argue for, and the reveal of one of the games more interesting aspects.

[illathid]

One has to ask what is the day to day research and practice of an Animancer, we have the obviously rather unusual (so one assumes) case outlined in Update #73, but what of his more mundane role? Obviously the name hints at this, the Anima refers to life force, personality and the Soul, as was used in Aristotle's famous work, so what does he do outside of the morally dubious known example?

 

The Engwithans created constructs using animancy, so I could see modern animancers trying to do the same or even expand upon the idea. Maybe we will encounter an animancer working on soul powered vehicles and machines, trying to make the world a better place.

[Nonek]

It raises interesting possibilities, but also similar moral quandries, if human Souls are being used at least. Condemned criminals? A form of execution?

[Mor]

Perhaps the studies will help prevent souls from being fractured as they proceed through the circle of rebirth, perhaps true immortality is around the corner, maybe someone's memories can be saved after death. Perhaps the souls of those who were murdered might be called upon to bear witness against their assassins.

My thoughts exactly. We don't like to face with our mortality and they idea that awakened souls can recall past lives means that we can learn more on what comes next or possibly bridge the gap in between (i.e. immortality) is something that many wont be able to resist. This opens the door for helping murder victims or less altruistic motives to seek forgotten knowledge of old, of other divine realms and or how to ultimate manipulate the power of our souls (and gods?).

 

Also on whacky side the idea that souls can "travel" through various divine realms and coexist in a single body might also mean deals with the "devil" and the idea of fractured souls can lead to some sort of soul eugenics cult.

 

Is the Animancer a Physician's counterpart, it may seem ridiculous to us but in the world of Poe mayhap such things are needed, with steampunk gadgets, strange Frankenstein-like apparatus, smoke and mirrors maybe an Animancer can cure what ails the Soul, or recommend some course of action that would be beneficial. Past lives still haunting the Psyche that require some form of resolution, cracks and weaknesses in the architecture of the metaphysical, the removal of curses and hauntings that a Soul has accrued through fair deeds or foul, can he cure or mitigate these and others?

Animancer study might lead to that in the future (might be what obsidian is planing for next title) but atm I get the sense that animancers understanding of the soul is in its diapers and the equivalent of frog muscle stimulation.

 

Maybe we will encounter an animancer working on soul powered vehicles and machines, trying to make the world a better place.

Interesting, machines that can harness\store the power of souls opens a lot of doors. On side note, I just hope that when those soul machines come out, they will be available in big and black verity

[Gromnir]

am gonna assume that animancy must have applications that is mundane and beneficial. the thing is, people tends to be afraid of new sciences. rumors o' frankenstein monsters arise whether there is genuine reasons to fear or not. heck, the actual frankenstein monster's great sins were that he were big and ugly. nevertheless, he wanted to be accepted and he genuine tried to do good. the monster spoke french, so perhaps that were a bit monstrous. that being said, initially the most monstrous aspect related to the creature were how dr. frankenstein and other people treated it. poe animancers can create Real monsters who go crazy and eat people.  if the animancers is genuine binding souls to corpses and machines, we expect that there will be a great deal o' fear attaching to their craft regardless of the more mundane aspects o' their craft.

 

use souls as fuel sounds bad to us. bind souls to machines, even criminals, doesn't strike us as mundane.  on the other hand, treating soul ailments would be a useful skill that we suspect would be in demand... even if early doctors in many cultures were treated little different than witches. use soul interaction with environment without binding or consuming soul could no doubt have beneficial applications.  am expecting animancers to have a hugable and beneficial side, otherwise we don't see how they ain't hunted down and expunged, and lawless territories would likely be more dangerous for the traveling animancer or even suspected animancer. yosemite sam would likely note that, "this here is a hangin' territory, and we don't take kindly to you and your sort." however, am thinking we would prefer hanging to tar-and-feathering. the tar were typical hot. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nonek]

Well Mr Sawyer stated that some Dyrwoodan's wished for Animancy to be more heavily monitored or outlawed, so certainly there seems to  be a certain antipathy towards the profession. But as I said earlier i'm unwilling personally to assign blame for that feeling until we know whether there is any reason for it, other than religions and conservatives disliking this new area of research, that impinges on previously held and probably cherished world views. Indeed we do not even know if the Undead creation of Update #73 is a known variable to anybody, or whether it has yet to be performed successfully, thus my hesitancy. That and Mr Sawyer states that the powermongers are still backing the research, suggesting to me that they have not yet suffered any particular harm from it.

 

One can see an Animancer who has suffered at the hands of backwards conservatives embracing a victim mentality, and thus imparting a sense of self righteous justice to his actions, it would be a very human reaction to moral castigation from ones peers.

 

I do believe Mr Mor and Gromnir touch on a salient point with their examples of the early uses of electricity to revivify corpses however, the fuel that probably fed Mrs Shelley's own creation in part at least, which was very much a passtime of the aristocratic and learned of society. There's such obvious potential implicit in that idea.

[Gromnir]

how people react to animacy will depend on any number of variables we ain't yet privy to. as you point out, we don't know how well understood is the link 'tween animancy and the creation o' corporeal undead. the morality o' animancy, on the other hand, is a slight different question, isn't it? am guessing that at least very early in the development of animancy, it would be possible that animancers didn't fully understand the link 'tween their craft and souls. as far as morality of animancy is concerned, Gromnir is far more concerned with what animancers and test subjects know than what is prevailing opinions of the People. heck, the soul manipulation part o' animancy could, at least initially, have been an unexpected side-effect. am still not having enough info to make any kinda judgement, but nevertheless, we do recognize that manipulation of souls creates questions o' morality that simply do not exist in real world sciences and fields. 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Mor]

am gonna assume that animancy must have applications that is mundane and beneficial. the thing is, people tends to be afraid of new sciences. rumors o' frankenstein monsters arise whether there is genuine reasons to fear or not. heck, the actual frankenstein monster's great sins were that he were big and ugly. nevertheless, he wanted to be accepted and he genuine tried to do good. the monster spoke french, so perhaps that were a bit monstrous. that being said, initially the most monstrous aspect related to the creature were how dr. frankenstein and other people treated it. poe animancers can create Real monsters who go crazy and eat people.  if the animancers is genuine binding souls to corpses and machines, we expect that there will be a great deal o' fear attaching to their craft regardless of the more mundane aspects o' their craft.

Animancy already has mundane and beneficial applications i.e. Animancer study with the brishalgwin helped build what Ciphers are today and their ability to manipulate others souls has been put into a very practical function in the form of Defiance bay secret police... (which make a lot of sense)

 

Also while Animancy can show the way to create monstrosities it can also better explain the workings of the universe. JS comment that some trees also have souls made me think of Orson Scott Card universe alien races different life cycle and existence. It might explain where the Engwithan disappearance...

[Nonek]

Yes i'm eager to see Twin Elms myself and beard the Poe equivalent of an Ent.

[Gromnir]

 

am gonna assume that animancy must have applications that is mundane and beneficial. the thing is, people tends to be afraid of new sciences. rumors o' frankenstein monsters arise whether there is genuine reasons to fear or not. heck, the actual frankenstein monster's great sins were that he were big and ugly. nevertheless, he wanted to be accepted and he genuine tried to do good. the monster spoke french, so perhaps that were a bit monstrous. that being said, initially the most monstrous aspect related to the creature were how dr. frankenstein and other people treated it. poe animancers can create Real monsters who go crazy and eat people.  if the animancers is genuine binding souls to corpses and machines, we expect that there will be a great deal o' fear attaching to their craft regardless of the more mundane aspects o' their craft.

Animancy already has mundane and beneficial applications i.e. Animancer study with the brishalgwin helped build what Ciphers are today and their ability to manipulate others souls has been put into a very practical function in the form of Defiance bay secret police... (which make a lot of sense)

 

Also while Animancy can show the way to create monstrosities it can also better explain the workings of the universe. JS comment that some trees also have souls made me think of Orson Scott Card universe alien races different life cycle and existence. It might explain where the Engwithan disappearance...

 

perhaps it is the American in Gromnir, but knowing that animancers create undead AND made possible the secret police is probable not helping with the whole "beneficial" aspects o' animancy. tell us that animancy also makes tax collecting in poe possible and am gonna be absolute convinced that known animancers would be murdered in their sleep with great frequency.

 

*shrug* 

 

most real world traditional hard sciences aid us in better understanding the workings o' the universe. historically, that didn't help 'em much with public perception until extreme recent. explain difference 'tween chemistry and alchemy to average person is gonna seem like sophistry or lawyerly gobbledygook. farmer bob might be momentary interested to hear that a new element were added to the periodic chart. on the other hand, chemistry that allows Bob to increase his crop yield by 20% is gonna makes him a dyed-in-wool chemistry supporter.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Mor]

Have the american in you noticed that most of your Tv-Shows are about doctors and cops i.e. help and protect? We all love to hate cops, but eventually we all understand that they are necessary evil. Which is especially true in medieval-ish setting, with magic and heavy populates city. ( where good hearted adventurer may not always be available to catch the equivalent of crazy soul powered jack the ripper)

 

Also the idea that everyone can use the power of their souls has an interesting drawback on a medieval society structure, where good armor\weapon may not be as useful..

Edited May 30, 2014 by Mor

[Nonek]

One thing that keeps occurring to me about experiments in Animancy is this, what if the recipient changes their mind, like the chap near the Mortuary in Torment. Those great trees with Souls bound into them that Mr Sawyer mentions, what if they want to end their long lives as trees? Is the Soul bound to the tree, will it be bound even when the tree rots and returns to the earth, is it eternally cast out of the cycle, what happens to the Soul then, does it haunt the forest it "lived" in?  A situation birthing a hundred questions, very pleasing.

 

Edit: The ignorance and experimentation of the Animancer may be catastrophic, does any harm he commits count against him then, innocent and trying to merely be helpful as he is? Horrible examples such as Thalidomyde and DDT spring to mind.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Nonek

[Gromnir]

Have the american in you noticed that most of your Tv-Shows are about doctors and cops i.e. help and protect? We all love to hate cops, but eventually we all understand that they are necessary evil. Which is especially true in medieval-ish setting, with magic and heavy populates city. ( where good hearted adventurer may not always be available to catch the equivalent of crazy soul powered jack the ripper)

 

Also the idea that everyone can use the power of their souls has an interesting drawback on a medieval society structure, where good armor\weapon may not be as useful..

ordinary cops is NOT the secret police.  am not sure why we even need make that point, but there you go.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Iucounu]

how people react to animacy will depend on any number of variables we ain't yet privy to. as you point out, we don't know how well understood is the link 'tween animancy and the creation o' corporeal undead. the morality o' animancy, on the other hand, is a slight different question, isn't it? am guessing that at least very early in the development of animancy, it would be possible that animancers didn't fully understand the link 'tween their craft and souls. as far as morality of animancy is concerned, Gromnir is far more concerned with what animancers and test subjects know than what is prevailing opinions of the People. heck, the soul manipulation part o' animancy could, at least initially, have been an unexpected side-effect. am still not having enough info to make any kinda judgement, but nevertheless, we do recognize that manipulation of souls creates questions o' morality that simply do not exist in real world sciences and fields. 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Actually I think it could very well exist in a few decades, with the advancement of brain research. After all the soul is perceived as nothing more than the source of conciousness, and perhaps to an extent as the source of intelligence, personality, memories etc., just like we perceive the brain in our own world, the only difference being that souls probably can't be destroyed, created from nothing or cloned, and appear to be something eternal, but still.  

If in our modern democratic society such a field of research would arise, that might have cruel applications (like creating zombies, for whatever reason), I don't think it would be prohibited, as you can't stop the inevitable anyway. The government would just make sure that research on this field is controlled so that nothing unethical is done, in public at least. If further research yields crucial benefits, like for example in war, the more cruel research could be done by secret organizations that work for the government. 

[Mor]

ordinary cops is NOT the secret police.  am not sure why we even need make that point, but there you go.

That just silly name association with political repression.. all we know about them is that they are an intelligence service (not sure if its internal or external fbi/cia for you) and according to JS Dyrwood isn't a totalitarian state (unlike Readceras). Which makes them the equivalent of being special force of "psychics" (think Cowled Wizards role in bg2, even though to most of us they came off as annoying, impotent and corrupt organization, I'd still have to go with necessary evil)

 

Also as I noted its important to understand that those are medieval-ish times, and look back at our own time to understand how the power structure back then was formed and think where would people with soul-power fit in such circumstances..

Edited May 30, 2014 by Mor

[Gromnir]

"That just silly name association with political repression."

 

HA! and? 

 

hey, maybe you can sell your cop show idea to kim-jong-un.  you know, do a show 'bout the north korean State Security Department... something the whole family can enjoy, right?  seriously, you comparing secret police organizations to the folks on cop and doctor shows and lephy comparing dangers o' being animancer guinea pig to drinking coffee. what is with people on these boards? oh, and even if all secret police were was a name association with political repression, that is still gonna distinguish from ordinary cops... you know, given the repression bit. obsidian is not calling 'em secret police 'cause they is helping little old lady find their way to the local market, or even tracking down jack the ripper. lack o' transparency is last thing a police organization wants if it is trying to reassure public.

 

*shakes head*

 

wacky stuff

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Mor]

You seem to confuse your 21 century sensibilities with those of medieval times.. I already noted what everything that we know about the organization and if you are going to scream HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed! don't stop there, every institution of that time should fit your definition... that is if you can't find the benefit in them in light of the circumstance\time.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Mor

[Gromnir]

oh sure, no doubt the inquisition and various historical examples o' secret police organizations pre-1920 were considered quite hugable by the peoples living in those times. is only nowadays that we is enlightened enough to be afeared of repression/oppression and faceless organizations spying 'pon us to make sure we is good little citizens.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 30, 2014 by Gromnir

[Mor]

ahh sure.. they must also be dabbling in zombie occult, remind me to call my character William Blazkowicz.. although then your inquisition example would make sense, since no one would expect that based on the info we have. Just because they are secret service, doesn't mean we should leap to conclusion that you have, especially since we already have one colony go the totalitarian\authoritarian regime way (Readceras).

 

I specifically noted the Cowled Wizards, who were secretive organization, which I doubt that many of us disliked to us they were impotent and corrupt, still they were necessary evil due to rogue spellcasters. Here is a world where everyone has access to innate soul power, not just wizards who be limited by acknowledge sharing; Animancer dabble in wild research financed by the powerful with little oversight(we know that one district of the city succumbed to wave of undead), several wars with in recent decades fighting zealots from the north and similar mind warriors from the east, and overall I assume lawlessness as the people don't seem to care for authority and applaud vigilantism/feuding... I don't know why would anyone want want to build a police force that can deal with those threats and use its reputation/secrecy to its advantage.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Mor

[Gromnir]

a secret service or organization is Not the same as secret police. and seriously folks, bring up tv shows with cops and doctors and whatnot is not helping. the obsidian guys ain't dim. am suspecting that they know what is the definition o' "secret police" and they used intentional.  cowled wizards were never called secret police by bioware even if you thinks they should have been. doesn't matter. OBSIDIAN using term "secret police" is significant. using in regards to animancers is also significant to the question o' animancer morality. use "secret police" in context o' animancers to guess what is public perception o' animancers is very significant, 'cause regardless o' how you wanna use, "secret police" gots denotation and connotation that is not hugable. 

 

am not jumping to any conclusions.  is a definition thing. don't say "secret service" if you mean "secret police," or vice versa. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[illathid]

Yeah, I agree with Gromnir. Secret Police evokes a very specific image; they are the Gestapo and the Stasi, the KGB and the NKVD. Hell, the whole point of making the police force secret is so that there is no answer to the question "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" A secret service is something else entirely.

[Mor]

@Gromnir, I understand your point based on the single term "secret police" you are convinced that they will be a tool of political repression outside of the usual for that time period, inline with inquisition and what not..

 

However, I think that based on all that we know lore wise, it isn't a prudent conclusion. The role of the totalitarian\authoritarian regime already filled by Readceras, and we seen nothing at all that would suggest anything of that sort in Dyrwood, where independence is valued. So if you are going to cry HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed! based on that don't stop there, go on with whole power structure of that time. Additionally everything we know about the setting offer us ample reason for why a special force with innate mental abilities, expert at soul manipulation would be needed (i.e. when Animancers dubbing murky ground, in some cases criminal acts; when everyone has access to innate soul powers; and through Animancers research cipher abilities which terrorized Dyrwoodans during the last two wars become widespread) yes I think that such police force is not only plausible, but have practical, realistic beneficial reasons.

 

Also since Ciphres are new bread and has particular reputation, it makes sense to use it as deterrence and keep their activity secret, unless you prefer the good ol' police deterrence of that time Also maybe its just me but 'Secret police' rolls on my tongue better then secret service for that time(the later I tend to associate with much more modern period), and cipher detective doesn't sound like some kind commissar or inquisitor that you seem to envision...

 

Overall I think that there enough reason to be open to other ideas, but if you want to stick your ground, we will have to part ways with this wikipidea entry:

 

 

Secret police (sometimes called political police) are intelligence agencies and or police agency, law enforcement agency which operates in secrecy, alternative name for secret service and also quite often in totalitarian states beyond the law to protect the political power of an individual dictator and/or an authoritarian (autocracy) political regime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_police

 

 

Also cops and doctors example was good considering that you brought up the American in you, you guys have a wired love/hate relationship with the pOlice, especially on forum such as these and you can't know with 40+ years old with internet persona.. anyway the point was that even in worst case scenario they are still necessary evil..

Edited May 30, 2014 by Mor

[Lephys]

Just because an investigator is secret does not mean they are corrupt and/or gestapo-ish.

 

If a criminal doesn't know who's an investigator, they don't know who they should be wary of. That's kind of the premise of any-and-all undercover operatives.

 

Obsidian's use of "secret police" begs questions, not conclusions.