Lessons from recent IE playthroughs

[Sensuki]

On the other hand, a game which adapts itself to your party composition sounds like fun.

Adapting to the encounters is more fun, particularly if they require variable tactics and whatnot.

[PrimeJunta]

But adapting to the encounters if you don't know what they're going to be is even more fun. Your replays with different types of parties would gain even more variety, as the encounters would change too.

 

I really like this idea. Procedurally generated variety, but in an intelligent way. Of course you could always ruin it by overcooking, but that's true of everything.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

On the other hand, a game which adapts itself to your party composition sounds like fun.

Adapting to the encounters is more fun, particularly if they require variable tactics and whatnot.

 

 

Why couldn't we have both?

[Valorian]

 

 

On the other hand, a game which adapts itself to your party composition sounds like fun.

Adapting to the encounters is more fun, particularly if they require variable tactics and whatnot.

 

 

Why couldn't we have both?

 

 

Because dynamically changing the composition of combat encounters, specifically to adapt to your party, doesn't make sense for 99,9% of encounters. Among other things.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Because dynamically changing the composition of combat encounters, specifically to adapt to your party, doesn't make sense for 99,9% of encounters. Among other things.

 

 

Yupp, enemies who are proactive and gather information about your fighting style and tactics are totally unrealistic. Got it.

[Valorian]

 

Because dynamically changing the composition of combat encounters, specifically to adapt to your party, doesn't make sense for 99,9% of encounters. Among other things.

 

 

Yupp, enemies who are proactive and gather information about your fighting style and tactics are totally unrealistic. Got it.

 

 

I'm sure it's realistic for that 0,1%. 

Like your example with wraiths.. who will scout you and haunt you while you sleep in the local inn and then, after a night of horrible dreams, on your next crypt adventure they'll totally adapt their tactics to exploit your nightmares. 

 

It's a lot of work to imbue this sort of metagaming into enemies, too.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

I'm sure it's realistic for that 0,1%. 

 

Because bands of reasonably intelligent humanoids who can be expected to have scouts and spies, or mages with scrying ability, or basically anything that can dominate minions and see through their eyes will only entail the 0,1% of enemies?

 

 

Like your example with wraiths.. who will scout you and haunt you while you sleep in the local inn and then, after a night of horrible dreams, on your next crypt adventure they'll totally adapt their tactics to exploit your nightmares.  

 

I never brought up any example with wraiths (even less with wraiths who haunt your dreams), please don't put words in my mouth. Thank you.

[ManifestedISO]

That is so weird, today is a big day for a new Shadows of Mordor trailer and preview-reviews ... with its procedurally generated enemies that remember being wounded by, or wounding the player character, returning later to hunt you down ... or run away to tell their Chief ... who then hunts you down, till you die. And then they even remember that, when you continue the game. 

[Valorian]

Because bands of reasonably intelligent humanoids who can be expected to have scouts and spies, or mages with scrying ability, or basically anything that can dominate minions and see through their eyes will only entail the 0,1% of enemies?

How did you imagine this anyway?

These intelligent humanoids spy on you, follow you, take notes about your combat styles and party composition, predict your next destinations and then shuffle their forces accordingly?

 

Can they fail? I mean, would it be possible to discover the spies and execute them on the spot before they had the chance to pass on the info? Naturally, unless they have some scrying soul-powered ability; I can see it would be hard to counter that.*   Hmm, perhaps with a mind-block enchanted item or spell!

 

*Long distance teleportation and readily available resurrection are hard to counter too, that's why it's better to use those really carefully, if at all, unless you wish to trivialize a setting.

 

 

 

I never brought up any example with wraiths (even less with wraiths who haunt your dreams), please don't put words in my mouth. Thank you.

That was totally not your example, and it was not my intention to put it in your mouth, but you did mention a "hive-mind of malicious and intelligent spirits". So I came up with this example with wraiths. I'm sure there are less ridiculous ones, of course.

[PrimeJunta]

How did you imagine this anyway?

These intelligent humanoids spy on you, follow you, take notes about your combat styles and party composition, predict your next destinations and then shuffle their forces accordingly?

 

Can they fail? I mean, would it be possible to discover the spies and execute them on the spot before they had the chance to pass on the info? Naturally, unless they have some scrying soul-powered ability; I can see it would be hard to counter that.*   Hmm, perhaps with a mind-block enchanted item or spell!

At least the way I'm imagining this, yes, pretty much, to all of those questions. If you discover and kill their spies and scouts, don't allow anyone to escape from the battlefield, protect yourself from scrying etc., it ought to interfere with their attempts to counter your strategies. Also offer an interesting new gameplay dimension, and encourage you to switch party compositions from time to time.

 

Of course it presupposes a story where you have that kind of antagonist, not random roving bands of... bandits. It would be jarring if those random bands of bandits changed composition for no reason.

 

Thing is, lots of games do have that kind of antagonist.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Because bands of reasonably intelligent humanoids who can be expected to have scouts and spies, or mages with scrying ability, or basically anything that can dominate minions and see through their eyes will only entail the 0,1% of enemies?

How did you imagine this anyway?

These intelligent humanoids spy on you, follow you, take notes about your combat styles and party composition, predict your next destinations and then shuffle their forces accordingly?

 

Can they fail? I mean, would it be possible to discover the spies and execute them on the spot before they had the chance to pass on the info? Naturally, unless they have some scrying soul-powered ability; I can see it would be hard to counter that.*    Hmm, perhaps with a mind-block enchanted item or spell!

 

Yeah, that's about correct. They should probably have some sort of stealth ability, which could be countered by certain spells or having a high enough Perception score. Even the shuffling of forces could be optional, I can totally imagine that instead of changing party compositions, they just concentrate their forces at an appropriate chokepoint and put up buffs appropriate against your favorite attacks.

 

And of course, when they are discovered, you can butcher them. Even scrying could be countered with appropriate spells or items - therefore giving you a tactical choice between direct damage potential (due to having more spells or item buffs) but harder opposition, or using up a significant chunk of your resources to find the enemy more disorganized. This could be given even further layers with changing party composition before the big battle, or not using scrying protection and casting completely different spells than the ones you intend to use in the final confrontation in the battles leading up to it.

 

 

 

 

I never brought up any example with wraiths (even less with wraiths who haunt your dreams), please don't put words in my mouth. Thank you.

 

That was totally not your example, and it was not my intention to put it in your mouth, but you did mention a "hive-mind of malicious and intelligent spirits". So I came up with this example with wraiths. I'm sure there are less ridiculous ones, of course.

 

Well, the point of that example was that because of the hive-mind, they experience what their fallen brethren experienced in their final moments, so they have ample opportunity to familiarize themselves with your combat abilities.

[Valorian]

I see. That's a lot of variables and work. I'm not opposed to a few encounters being like that, but I don't find this system particularly appealing. 

 

 

Even the shuffling of forces could be optional, I can totally imagine that instead of changing party compositions, they just concentrate their forces at an appropriate chokepoint and put up buffs appropriate against your favorite attacks.

 

 

Yes, I think appropriate chokepoints or even ambushes would be better than shuffling forces or pre-buffing to counter your "favorite attacks" (pre-buffing is currently not possible in PoE).

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Even the shuffling of forces could be optional, I can totally imagine that instead of changing party compositions, they just concentrate their forces at an appropriate chokepoint and put up buffs appropriate against your favorite attacks.

 

 

Yes, I think appropriate chokepoints or even ambushes would be better than shuffling forces or pre-buffing to counter your "favorite attacks" (pre-buffing is currently not possible in PoE).

 

For the player, of course

[Death Machine Miyagi]

I honestly don't care all that much about class balance. It's important in multiplayer games, but in a single player game I find it more important that all the classes be interesting to play, unique and functional. It doesn't bother me if wizards are more powerful than warriors or thieves or whatever else in the long run, so long as all those classes are fun and offer a variety of unique and entertaining play styles. If you can accomplish that, than even if you don't technically need anything but a wizard in the late game to curbstomp everything your path, people will still bring other classes or play other classes because they're entertaining to play. 

 

Baldur's Gate 2 had plenty of brokenness in its class system. The infamous Kensai/Mage, for example. Yet a Kensai/Mage could be a great deal of fun, broken or not, and isn't that the whole point of the game? To have fun? Its not like WoW or something where one class being overpowered derails the game for everyone else. It's just you. If you don't like how OP that class combo is, don't play it.

 

In BG2, I found much greater annoyance in classes like Druids and single-class Thieves that were both weak and boring, the latter being the far greater offense.

[Iucounu]

In BG2, I found much greater annoyance in classes like Druids and single-class Thieves that were both weak and boring, the latter being the far greater offense.

I think thieves are perceived as weak because most players were basically playing them like a fighter who does the occasional lockpicking, but that's not the game's fault. A thief who relies on backstabbing or traps has his uses and can be quite effective. This guide is pretty good.

For me the thief's ability to detect illusion alone was golden, something most players have probably never used.

 

I haven't really played druids excessively, but I do think that they have a spell selection that adds something to any party, the insect spells and some rather useful summons come to mind.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Iucounu

[Lephys]

Arguing over the number of encounters that would use that sort of dynamic encounter adjustment is a bit moot, since it's such an unknown. Clearly no one was suggesting it be EVERY encounter -- "Wolf Captain! I've come to report on the battle tactics of some humans walking through our forest! I saw them kill a squirrel!" -- and "0.1%" seems to be on the opposite extreme of the spectrum.

 

Anywho, so long as its agreed there would be favorable conditions/factors in some quantity throughout the game to support such a thing, that's all that really matters. And yes, it probably won't get slapped into PoE, but it's enjoyable to imagine and brainstorm about, non?

[Death Machine Miyagi]

 

In BG2, I found much greater annoyance in classes like Druids and single-class Thieves that were both weak and boring, the latter being the far greater offense.

I think thieves are perceived as weak because most players were basically playing them like a fighter who does the occasional lockpicking, but that's not the game's fault. A thief who relies on backstabbing or traps has his uses and can be quite effective. This guide is pretty good.

For me the thief's ability to detect illusion alone was golden, something most players have probably never used.

 

I haven't really played druids excessively, but I do think that they have a spell selection that adds something to any party, the insect spells and some rather useful summons come to mind.

 

 

The thief class itself wasn't the problem so much as the complete lack of reasons to play one as single class. As I think Gromnir said earlier in the thread, all the abilities you needed as a thief could be obtained quite early, giving you little reason not to play as a mage-thief or fighter-thief.

 

I loved my chaotic evil half-orc fighter/thief, and ran him straight from Candlekeep to the end of Throne of Bhaal, but I hated every single class thief I ever tried and always ended up abandoning them before long.

 

As for druids, there were only a few spells that separated them from clerics, and unfortunately some of the ones they were missing included Raise Dead, Resurrection and Greater Restoration. Also, their stronghold quest line sucked. 

Edited May 22, 2014 by Death Machine Miyagi

[Iucounu]

The thief class itself wasn't the problem so much as the complete lack of reasons to play one as single class. As I think Gromnir said earlier in the thread, all the abilities you needed as a thief could be obtained quite early, giving you little reason not to play as a mage-thief or fighter-thief.

Yeah, at the mid-end of SOA and in TOB, class combos are probably stronger (at least if it's a multi-class, dual-classes had less High Level abilties if I recall correctly). Although single class kits like Bounty Hunter can be pretty cool too.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that single-class thieves can be quite decent and not useless like some people claim. Although compared to a fully developed class-combo, yeah, I guess you could say they're weak. 

[Mor]

On the other hand, a game which adapts itself to your party composition sounds like fun.

Though, that doesn't sound anything like PoE with its hand crafted encounter... more like a rouge like, where it would be easy to scale its random crap.

[Lephys]

^ Just FWIW, random != dynamic. You can hand-craft dynamic content, instead of just having it pick a bunch of factors out of a hat, and end up with neither static nor random "crap." 8P

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Well, the point of that example was that because of the hive-mind, they experience what their fallen brethren experienced in their final moments, so they have ample opportunity to familiarize themselves with your combat abilities.

 

I can see a lot of exploiting of the A.I. with this. Play as dumb adventurers, using underpowered spells and then when you encounter an enemy that is familiar with your combat abilities, pull out the big spells.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Well, the point of that example was that because of the hive-mind, they experience what their fallen brethren experienced in their final moments, so they have ample opportunity to familiarize themselves with your combat abilities.

 

I can see a lot of exploiting of the A.I. with this. Play as dumb adventurers, using underpowered spells and then when you encounter an enemy that is familiar with your combat abilities, pull out the big spells.

 

 

Interesting point and you are right, this does seem to allow some sort of exploitation

[PrimeJunta]

I can see a lot of exploiting of the A.I. with this. Play as dumb adventurers, using underpowered spells and then when you encounter an enemy that is familiar with your combat abilities, pull out the big spells.

Which would be a way cool strategy. Also something entirely believable -- keeping your best stuff in reserve and not letting the enemy find out about it makes total sense.

 

Seriously, I want this feature. It would introduce a whole new gameplay element without all that much effort. Of course you can game it -- that's the point. To make it fun the intelligence-gathering methods would have to be believable, and it would have to be possible to interfere with them in many of the ways listed here -- not using your most powerful abilities until they're really needed, not allowing enemies to escape the battlefield, identifying and squishing spies, dealing with recon... perhaps undercover enemy spies would actually try to recruit you to do stuff for them, posing as your usual questgivers, mixed among the other sidequests.

 

Damn, this has possibilities... and it would fit great into an IE-style game.

Edited May 23, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

I can see a lot of exploiting of the A.I. with this. Play as dumb adventurers, using underpowered spells and then when you encounter an enemy that is familiar with your combat abilities, pull out the big spells.

 

 

Well, if you can manage to beat encounters that were designed with an adventuring party which uses their abilities to their fullest extent in mind while holding back, I think you deserve to be rewarded, don't you think?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

I can see a lot of exploiting of the A.I. with this. Play as dumb adventurers, using underpowered spells and then when you encounter an enemy that is familiar with your combat abilities, pull out the big spells.

Which would be a way cool strategy. Also something entirely believable -- keeping your best stuff in reserve and not letting the enemy find out about it makes total sense.

 

Seriously, I want this feature. It would introduce a whole new gameplay element without all that much effort. Of course you can game it -- that's the point. To make it fun the intelligence-gathering methods would have to be believable, and it would have to be possible to interfere with them in many of the ways listed here -- not using your most powerful abilities until they're really needed, not allowing enemies to escape the battlefield, identifying and squishing spies, dealing with recon... perhaps undercover enemy spies would actually try to recruit you to do stuff for them, posing as your usual questgivers, mixed among the other sidequests.

 

Damn, this has possibilities... and it would fit great into an IE-style game.

 

 

 

 

Well, if you can manage to beat encounters that were designed with an adventuring party which uses their abilities to their fullest extent in mind while holding back, I think you deserve to be rewarded, don't you think?

 

ROFL.

 

I didn't realise so many people were in favour of gaming the system, exploiting the game's A.I. We see people say on these forums, BG2 is broken by exploiting the game's A.I., using exploits, but now want to do it in PoE? And now it's called strategy.