Update #77: Art in Alpha

[Gromnir]

Meh, whatever. I just want armor that looks somewhat plausible and has plenty of character variety and distinctiveness. Ludicrous chain mail bikinis? No. Form fitting flexible scale armor for male and female with some exaggeration for pixel displays? I'm totally fine with that. You have your preferences, I have mine. I'm not really seeing why you have an issue (other than politics), and I probably don't care.

what politics? got some political agenda we could possibly be pushing? show any evidence o' Gromnir having a political agenda on this issue . disagree with you is Not political. asking for reasonable explanations is not political, though it is sadly rare.

 

b00b plate being out of poe is your given. now come up with a reason for supporting the inclusion o' b00b scale.

 

if you were against b00b plate, there is no reasoning that would allow an honest person to simultaneous support b00b scale. b00b scale is actual less plausible than b00b plate, 'cause while a metal chest-piece or hard leather cuirass can be crafted to hold any wacky form, heavy metal scale and chain will necessarily be formless and would also obliterate b00b swell. if you make such armour light enough to show any kinda swell, or add hard shell under garments to create support, you ain't making the scale more plausible. IF b00b plate fails 'cause o' plausibility, then scale is no more plausible and even the obsidian developers conceded this point.  we weren't part o' the b00b plate crusade, but we has read the threads. b00b scale ain't any less sexist or demeaning and b00b scale is actual less plausible.  so, what is its reason for inclusion o' scale and simultaneous exclusion o' b00b plate. any politics you seeing?

 

is engine concerns what makes b00b scale ok but plate bad? that ain't what obsidian claimed. the developers went with a insta-visual differentiation tack. nonsense. review hiro and Gromnir posts above. 

 

is terrible that asking for rationality and honesty is viewed as politically motivated. what a sad commentary and disappointing.

 

...

 

have said this dozens o' times now.  we need to keep explaining?  what is wrong with folks? is baffling.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

[Sannom]

b00b plate = no

 

b00b scale = yes

 

why? 

 

nobody is answering and the distinction makes no sense, regardless o' excuses being given by obsidian. 

Yeah, I think I understand your argument Gromnir, but... we haven't even seen an in-game model of a female plate armor, right? For all we know, there is the same problem with them than with the scale armor as shown here, and we will perhaps be clamoring against it, which, I admit, will make us hypocrites. It's true that the lack of reaction of the fanbase to this scale armor isn't really consistent with the outcry when the lady priest was revealed. Obsidian's "we will keep some differences for visual recognition's sake" really "defused" us, it seems.

[rjshae]

There's nothing wrong with folks here and there's little point in repeating the same arguments. But good luck with your dilemma.

[Silent Winter]

if you were against b00b plate, there is no reasoning that would allow an honest person to simultaneous support b00b scale.

Can I just add that I'm not against boob-plate either exactly - I'd only be against huge exaggerated 2 separate boobies stuck on the plate.

General form fitting (ie slight curving out at the chest in a single bit and then tapering a little at the waste) would be fine with me.  Same with the scale/leather/any armour.  (Clothing that's not armour can have any form it likes, of course)

 

I missed the whole 'community outrage' over boob-plate - was it really a hundred united posters with only 1 or 2 detractors or were there pages and pages of debate like this one?

 

Again - have it in or not, it won't affect my game - though 'female armour' should be in (whether that's just size/fitting or slight chest swell isn't all that important to me)

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

I missed the whole 'community outrage' over boob-plate - was it really a hundred united posters with only 1 or 2 detractors or were there pages and pages of debate like this one?

 

Oh my lord yes. there wasn't just pages and pages but threads. And the outrage wasn't just on these forums either. Which is why I find it odd (and Gromnir points out) that there was so many people against boob plate back then, but now you hardly hear a peep with boob scale with the exception of a few people - pointing out how people have now changed their position with the whole boob armour.

[rjshae]

Just to clarify, are you talking about this thread?

Edited May 10, 2014 by rjshae

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Just to clarify, are you talking about this thread?

 

I was looking at some other threads and not that one.

[rjshae]

 

Just to clarify, are you talking about this thread?

 

I was looking at some other threads and not that one.

 

Please provide a link. Thank you.

[rjshae]

Well, given a lack of any links, one is left wondering whether those who were complaining loudly about the boob plate and would presumably have found these illustrations objectionable were only a small group who have since mostly departed, leaving only the last two diehards....

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Well, given a lack of any links, one is left wondering whether those who were complaining loudly about the boob plate and would presumably have found these illustrations objectionable were only a small group who have since mostly departed, leaving only the last two diehards....

 

If you bothered to read your own link, I've never once complained about boob plate. In fact, you will not find a post by me in any boob plate thread. So I'm at a loss why you would say I am one of the last diehards from the boob plate armour threads continuing with the boob scale armour. But you do have a habit of posting and jumping to conclusions.

 

Also, I'm unsure why you need me to post links to boob armour threads? Are you suggesting there wasn't threads and pages and pages of people not wanting boob plate?

[tkrajewski1986]

Can't wait to play it;]

[rjshae]

 

Well, given a lack of any links, one is left wondering whether those who were complaining loudly about the boob plate and would presumably have found these illustrations objectionable were only a small group who have since mostly departed, leaving only the last two diehards....

 

If you bothered to read your own link, I've never once complained about boob plate. In fact, you will not find a post by me in any boob plate thread. So I'm at a loss why you would say I am one of the last diehards from the boob plate armour threads continuing with the boob scale armour. But you do have a habit of posting and jumping to conclusions.

 

Also, I'm unsure why you need me to post links to boob armour threads? Are you suggesting there wasn't threads and pages and pages of people not wanting boob plate?

 

Did I miscount? There is Ffordesoon and Gromnir at least.

Well I was just responding to this, where you found the situation odd so I wanted to look back and see more of the details. Your statements were so broad and sweeping, that I had to see more. It was a while ago.

 

Oh my lord yes. there wasn't just pages and pages but threads. And the outrage wasn't just on these forums either. Which is why I find it odd (and Gromnir points out) that there was so many people against boob plate back then, but now you hardly hear a peep with boob scale with the exception of a few people - pointing out how people have now changed their position with the whole boob armour.

 

and then:

 

I was looking at some other threads and not that one.

 

Right, so it's clearly in another thread and not the one I linked at and did bother to read but not all the way through. You've behaved rather unfortunately in the past, so normally I have you on my block list. Ergo I may have missed whether you commented or not.

 

No matter. Pointless discussion anyway. Bye.

Edited May 11, 2014 by rjshae

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Did I miscount? There is Ffordesoon and Gromnir at least.

Well I was just responding to this, where you found the situation odd so I wanted to look back and see more of the details. Your statements were so broad and sweeping, that I had to see more. It was a while ago.

 

 

 

Considering you were responding to me in the last few posts and directly quoting me, one would think you were including me in your broad and sweeping generalisation of:

 

'Well, given a lack of any links...  leaving only the last two diehards'.

 

Lack of links? That's at me? Yes? Considering it was me you were asking for links and then including me as the last or the diehards at the end of your post. Despite the fact I have never posted in any boob plate armour threads on this board. Nice jump to conclusion there.

 

 

 

 

Oh my lord yes. there wasn't just pages and pages but threads. And the outrage wasn't just on these forums either. Which is why I find it odd (and Gromnir points out) that there was so many people against boob plate back then, but now you hardly hear a peep with boob scale with the exception of a few people - pointing out how people have now changed their position with the whole boob armour.

 

and then:

 

I was looking at some other threads and not that one.

 

Right, so it's clearly in another thread and not the one I linked at and did bother to read but not all the way through. You've behaved rather unfortunately in the past, so normally I have you on my block list. Ergo I may have missed whether you commented or not.

 

No matter. Pointless discussion anyway. Bye.

 

 

Again. I ask the question: Are you suggesting there wasn't threads and pages and pages of people not wanting boob plate? Because you seem to be suggesting there wasn't and only one thread.

 

You avoid questions like the one I asked. And what will be the purpose if I post links to another three or four threads? To prove I'm right? Because I have no idea why you want to have all these other threads. It's easy to find them with a quick search. It's truly bizarre. And you've behaved rather unfortunately in the past as well. Accusing others with no proof, broad sweeping generalisations. Dodge and weave tactics when called out. Perhaps looking at your behaviour first. You can put me on your block list. It's okay.

 

Nice to see you engage in what you see as pointless discussions. You must like jumping into pointless discussions on the internet. And yeah, bye.

[Sarex]

b00b plate = no

 

b00b scale = yes

 

why?

 

Because in a world where women are of equal strenght to men, we must asume that their boobs are pure muscle and help them support the heavy armor, thus we conclude that the outline of boobs can be seen on scale, but canot be seen on plate, because the boobs are not strong enought to bend the metal.

 

Is that enough realisam for you to be able to sleep at night?

[Malekith]

[Gromnir]

Well, given a lack of any links, one is left wondering whether those who were complaining loudly about the boob plate and would presumably have found these illustrations objectionable were only a small group who have since mostly departed, leaving only the last two diehards....

have been playing wildstar... beta.  you want link? use the search function. we has only ever used search on these boards top find our own posts/threads as it is a bit wonky. if you can't find, such threads, it ain't cause they weren't there as you can see references to such in this thread from folks other than Gromnir.

 

oh, and the notion o' b00bs being pure muscle, while slight amusing, is not what we would call realism... though we has never asked for realism. btw, men have b00bs o' muscle... is called pectoralis major.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am suspecting you needs go back earlier than april 2013-- were a poll thread that were quite long an included developer input, for example,

Edited May 11, 2014 by Gromnir

[Sarex]

oh, and the notion o' b00bs being pure muscle, while slight amusing, is not what we would call realism... though we has never asked for realism. btw, men have b00bs o' muscle... is called pectoralis major.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Nor do I find the notion of a women wearing plate and wielding a greataxe, while still doing any damage what you would call realism... But then here we are, waiting for a fantasy game with both, go figure.

[Gromnir]

 

oh, and the notion o' b00bs being pure muscle, while slight amusing, is not what we would call realism... though we has never asked for realism. btw, men have b00bs o' muscle... is called pectoralis major.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Nor do I find the notion of a women wearing plate and wielding a greataxe, while still doing any damage what you would call realism... But then here we are, waiting for a fantasy game with both, go figure.

 

*sigh*

 

please recall, we said,

 

"b00b plate = no

 

"b00b scale = yes

 

"why? "

 

you gave a silly response. really. b00b muscle? that is your "why"?

 

well, guess what, women wielding great axe and wearing plate does Not require a ridiculous argument. women players don't wanna be excluded from playing warriors because reality says they have less upper body strength. is not complex. that issue has been raised ad nauseum in other games and has been dismissed outta hand by all save the myopic troika developers.  got some similar overwhelming argument for b00b scale? is women, or even men, clamoring for b00b scale? the reason for b00b scale, according to obsidian, is the differentiation aspect, which hiro and others has shown is complete ridiculous. 

 

so, try again: why?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps please keep in mind that we has said MANY times now (many times in this thread alone) that we is not prioritizing realism... so tell us that is all kinds o' necessarily unrealistic stuff in poe doesn't mean anything. 

Edited May 11, 2014 by Gromnir

[Sarex]

*sigh*

 

please recall, we said,

 

"b00b plate = no

 

"b00b scale = yes

 

"why? "

 

you gave a silly response. really. b00b muscle? that is your "why"?

 

well, guess what, women wielding great axe and wearing plate does Not require a ridiculous argument. women players don't wanna be excluded from playing warriors because reality says they have less upper body strength. is not complex. that issue has been raised ad nauseum in other games and has been dismissed outta hand by all save the myopic troika developers.  got some similar overwhelming argument for b00b scale? is women, or even men, clamoring for b00b scale? the reason for b00b scale, according to obsidian, is the differentiation aspect, which hiro and others has shown is complete ridiculous. 

 

so, try again: why?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I never said no to boob plate.

 

People want to see boobs on their female heroes, it's not that complex. Also breast making a bulge under scale armor is not that big of a leap as female warriors. I am not willing to say no to boob armor for the sake of realism, when there is none in the game. As for boob plate, well I guess it must have not been to the liking of the devs, so they didn't do it. For that matter, did they even say that there is no boob plate and what about leather armor or chain mail?

 

If they were trying to bait teenagers, like some mmos do then it would have been a different story, but they are not and so I have no problem with it.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Sarex

[Gromnir]

"Also breast making a bulge under scale armor is not that big of a leap as female warriors."

 

am thinking this is part o' the reason we see so little reaction to b00b scale... your misconception. b00b plate is actual far more plausible than b00b scale or chain. it is at least possible to craft b00b plate. can make plate into many wacky shapes. the shape o' plate is not all that dependent on person wearing it... though for a good fit, it should be. scale and chain that is actual heavy 'nuff to be armour obliterates b00b swell. either don't know how armour works... or how b00bs work. but again, this is a furrow that has already been plowed many times.

 

the amour for the female npc with the b00b plate were changed. 

 

original

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 11, 2014 by Gromnir

[Sarex]

Or you are just misreading what I wrote. Never said that boob scale is more plausible then boob plate, only that as unrealistic things go this ain't a big leap.

 

Again you are fighting me on realism while dismissing my other examples of suspensions of disbelief. You are picking what matters and what does not. Well it doesn't work like that, either it all matters or none of it does.

[Gromnir]

Or you are just misreading what I wrote. Never said that boob scale is more plausible then boob plate, only that as unrealistic things go this ain't a big leap.

 

Again you are fighting me on realism while dismissing my other examples of suspensions of disbelief. You are picking what matters and what does not. Well it doesn't work like that, either it all matters or none of it does.

we is fighting you on "why"?  you still have not provided one.  why you insist on thinking it is 'bout realism? getting willful obtuse on this.

 

also, am thinking you is similar stubborn to fight irrelevant minutiae. we made a generalization as to why we believes that folks is more adverse to b00b plate... we used your specific misconception regarding scale to illustrate this point. scale with swell is a a major misconception. is far more examples o' women warriors than is scale with b00b swell, 'cause genuine scale armour with b00b swell ain't possible whereas there is many examples o' women warriors. we compared general reaction o' community to b00b plate and scale, and used your specific misconception 'bout scale to do so. clear now? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 11, 2014 by Gromnir

[Sarex]

we is fighting you on "why"?  you still have not provided one.  why you insist on thinking it is 'bout realism? getting willful obtuse on this.

 

also, am thinking you is similar stubborn to fight irrelevant minutiae. we made a generalization as to why we believes that folks is more adverse to b00b plate... we used your specific misconception regarding scale to illustrate this point. scale with swell is a a major misconception. is far more examples o' women warriors than is scale with b00b swell, 'cause genuine scale armour with b00b swell ain't possible whereas there is many examples o' women warriors. we compared general reaction o' community to b00b plate and scale, and used your specific misconception 'bout scale to do so. clear now? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I am not amongst those people so I couldn't care less. As for a reason, I provided one, you just didn't read. People want boobs on their female heroes, if for nothing else but to have a easy visual difference between male and female animation.

 

A better question is, what is your reason for not having it?

[Gromnir]

 

we is fighting you on "why"?  you still have not provided one.  why you insist on thinking it is 'bout realism? getting willful obtuse on this.

 

also, am thinking you is similar stubborn to fight irrelevant minutiae. we made a generalization as to why we believes that folks is more adverse to b00b plate... we used your specific misconception regarding scale to illustrate this point. scale with swell is a a major misconception. is far more examples o' women warriors than is scale with b00b swell, 'cause genuine scale armour with b00b swell ain't possible whereas there is many examples o' women warriors. we compared general reaction o' community to b00b plate and scale, and used your specific misconception 'bout scale to do so. clear now? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I am not amongst those people so I couldn't care less. As for a reason, I provided one, you just didn't read. People want boobs on their female heroes, if for nothing else but to have a easy visual difference between male and female animation.

 

A better question is, what is your reason for not having it?

 

first, as we has now said a half dozen times, the visual differentiation aspect has been quite thoroughly debunked. am not gonna repeat again. just scroll up. so, again, why? don't just repeat somebody else.

 

second, we keeps saying that it is irrational and unreasonable to alter b00b plate because it is sexist, ridiculous and demeaning, but then offer us b00b scale that suffers from same flaws.  am getting a bit sick o' repeating this over and over. more than dozen times... minimum? how long 'fore you folks get it? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 11, 2014 by Gromnir

[rjshae]

Distinctive female armor forms is more of a nod toward the visual gameplay elements, but for me they don't break the immersion so it remains a non issue. It (female-shaped armor) can be successfully explained away through alternate universe cultural aspects (as mentioned earlier), and shouldn't break the verisimilitude as long as the shapes aren't completely ludicrous in form. The issue might matter more if this was a real-world historical simulation. It's not.

 

A better question is, what is your reason for not having it?

 

Agreed.

Edited May 11, 2014 by rjshae