One question to devs

[milczyciel]

PS3. There are 2 new interview on RPGCodex.net one with Josh other with Chris but there is a little info on PoE in them so i will not post it as a new topic.

Well, you could have give a link in that post of yours. Now I'm left with my lacking skill of googling it by myself, because god damn I must read that one!

[GrayAngel]

There the links to interview with Josh http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/josh-sawyer-youtube-bonanza-villains-class-archetypes-icewind-dale-2-retrospective.89805/ and here with Chris http://grimuar.pl/interview/chris-avellone-man-who-travels-the-planes there is link and this interview in Polish if someone want.

Edited February 10, 2014 by GrayAngel

[Karkarov]

I still don't get why people are so hard core against this?  Why is it IE game fanboi thinks romances are always bad when all you ever do is complain about romance options you felt were poorly written?  Romance options in Eternity can definitely work, lots of players also like having them around.  I just don't get why you would purposefully not include something that WAS included in some of the IE games like the much vaunted BG2.  Especially when that something is considered an integral part of the experience to some people.

 

Just make sure they are well written and play out well, make it so it can be more than just your npc followers, and of course let it be optional.  That and give it to a writer who actually likes that sort of stuff obviously.  That said.... yo Alpha Protocol's romances were awesome, your character clearly was just doing whatever he had to to score and half the other characters were getting it on basically because they just liked cheap sex.  That is what a spy movie romance is supposed to be about gents!

[SirAcid]

Put me down for romance.

 

 

 

I'm so lonely. 

[Sir Chaox]

Not really against romances but I'll give it a shot. Not really interested in sim-romances, but they can be pretty funny sometimes.

 

If the writers do not want to do romances, definitely do not do it.
If they plan to half-ass the romances, definitely do not do it.
These are a given.

 

Romance options done well would take up resources that could be better spent on fleshing out story or companions in other ways; if they have the bandwidth for this, then no big deal, but if they plan to add more companions, then maybe they won't have the time for (good) romances.

 

And romances are fine if they are done well. BG2 did a good job of it because, for the most part, it spanned throughout the game and effected the plot here and there... it felt more integrated into the story. Could it have been better? Absolutely. DA:O had good romances as well because, again, it felt like it intertwined with the story and changed aspects of it in large enough ways to make it feel different and relevant. It also spanned the length of the game (IIRC).

 

So if they plan to make romances in this similar light, then there's no issue IMO. Otherwise, it is a waste of resources and they should worry about fleshing out other aspects of the story/characters. Romances should be all-or-nothing, not tacked on.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Sir Chaox

[milczyciel]

Seriously - I wish I could be surprised by quality of romance writing, but the thing is I was not since BG2 (and even then only because of reasons I explained above). Well, ok, I was once - by "Final Fantasy VII" when I decided to give it a try, and learn why it's considered to be holy grail by many. 

It was by all means not a nice surprise.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I still don't get why people are so hard core against this?

Ex-Wives.

[fkldnhlsdngsfnhlsndlg]

I recognize this is an extremely popular thing among some circles.

 

That said, I find in-game romances that have no bearing on the plot or characters, but instead serve as player wish fulfillment and/or ego stroking, to be annoying at best.  Really looking forward to not seeing any.

 

 

Put me down for romance.

 

 

 

I'm so lonely. 

 

Staying inside playing RPGs probably isn't going to help that very much.

Edited February 11, 2014 by sea

[Kjaamor]

You know, it would be nice if an rpg romance;

 

a) Occurred within the companions

 

b) The above could occur in opposition to the PC - characters on the same side competing for affection

 

c) Occurs with consequences, so that Romance is something you sacrifice for - perhaps losing attribute points, or losing a feat

 

Anyway, it's all pretty moot because PoE looks highly unlikely to have anything of the sort.

[milczyciel]

You know, it would be nice if an rpg romance;

 

a) Occurred within the companions

 

b) The above could occur in opposition to the PC - characters on the same side competing for affection

 

c) Occurs with consequences, so that Romance is something you sacrifice for - perhaps losing attribute points, or losing a feat

Heyyy... I completely forgot about a romance between Aerie and Haer'Dalis.

Yeah, that's something we don't see very often with all that romancing centered around PC - can't say I'm against that.

Edited February 11, 2014 by milczyciel

[Larkaloke]

I've really never had any interest in romances, be it in books, films, or games. As such, I would be perfectly happy if there are none in PoE. I don't mind at all if there are, though -- I don't have to do them, clearly many people enjoy them, and beyond perhaps the first playthrough (possibly not even that) I doubt I'll be bringing the NPCs along in any case so it probably won't come up for me any more than it did when playing Baldur's Gate II.

 

I don't believe that the inclusion of romances makes games at all better, but I also don't believe it necessarily makes them worse (although there are some cases where I think it might; I strongly dislike it when the only way to interact with a particular NPC is romance or almost nothing, and I'd much rather have higher quality NPCs across the board than one or two who have had more time and resources spent on them due to being romance options). The only upside to having them there, from my point of view, is to have that option there if not pursuing one of them would be out of character for the character I'm playing (a rather rare circumstance, for me). Granted, I'd actually rather not even have that option so I don't then have to sit through all the sappy dialogue and whatnot, but there have been a few cases when I've felt it added to playing a particular character through a game. A lot more cases where I never touched on any of the romances and was quite happy that way, and also a few cases where something else and seemingly more inconsequential added far more to the experience, but I won't say that they are always completely without merit.

 

I will say that they're very, very low on any list of things I want out of a game. They're still above "dogs everywhere" and far above "voiced PC", but those are, respectively, something I actively don't want at all and something that hinders my enjoyment of a game to such an extent I'll be lucky if I make it all the way through the game once.

 

Now, interaction of any sort between different NPCs in the party is probably a good thing. I can't say I'd be wild about that being romantic interaction (see: not intersted by such), but as it would presumably make sense for the characters in question, I'd not have a problem with it either. Could maybe be interesting under the right circumstances.

 

 

moment of realization:

So... just how many women and homosexuals are there, expecting PoE, and do they/you feel different about all that "romancing"? I'm honestly curious because, sadly, I don't know any female or gay gamer IRL so I never had any chance to discuss it "outside the box".

To make it worse I didn't even read anything about it, given that 99% game journalist I follow are men and overwhelming majority of them are straight.

 

So, is it a factor? Or am I making narrow minded fool of myself here?

 

Eh, personally I doubt it's a factor (unless, cynically, it could be that some developers assume that it would be and in that fashion make it one). Some people like them and some people don't, and I expect it's a similar distribution for women and homosexuals to what it is for men and heterosexuals. To speak from experience, I obviously don't care for them. Most people I know, men and women, like them more than I do. My perception is that on forums the people arguing for them are a fairly mixed lot, as are those arguing against them.

[FlintlockJazz]

Death to the Promancers!

 

I jest.  I'm not a great fan of romance, I find that I only liked the romances in BG2 the first time I played it because it was the few chances you got to interact with your party, getting pissed off when you had to choose because it meant losing interaction with other party members and finding the romance options to be lacking as it was.  I'd have much prefered non-romance interaction at that level of development instead.  Butchering Khalid and then making Jaheira warm for your ****les just seemed cheap and actually removed a lot of potential character development from them both, would have been more interesting to see a potentially more mature relationship play out there.  But no, they wanted you to bone her instead.

[Grivenger]

Seriously - I wish I could be surprised by quality of romance writing, but the thing is I was not since BG2 (and even then only because of reasons I explained above). Well, ok, I was once - by "Final Fantasy VII" when I decided to give it a try, and learn why it's considered to be holy grail by many. 

It was by all means not a nice surprise.

Except that FF VII doesn't have any form of romance and has always been imposed by its fans. In fact, Cloud is completely friendzoned.

[Kjaamor]

Butchering Khalid and then making Jaheira warm for your ****les just seemed cheap and actually removed a lot of potential character development from them both, would have been more interesting to see a potentially more mature relationship play out there.  But no, they wanted you to bone her instead.

 

See, I must admit, although I look back fondly upon the Aerie (ymmdefinitelyv) and Viconia romances, I must admit that I tend to suppress any thought of the whole Jaheira thing; just because it was so bloody uncomfortable. There's this woman, a friend of my fathers, and I got to know her and her husband. They became like aunt and uncle for me. Then suddenly he drops dead and I can either have sex with her, be horrible to her or kick her out of the party. It would've been nice if you could've just been nice to her without trying to jump her bones.

 

DRAGON AGE SPOILERS AHEAD

 

I'm mindful that I seem to have referred to several things that this game did well, lately, and certainly don't want people to think that I believe its strengths compensate for its many and varied weaknesses, but...

 

...as a "good" character in DA:O, one of the best romances in western crpgs I've witnessed was the one my PC had with Morrigan; simply because unlike in most other games my character ended up being the one who was used - and all the high and mighty attempts to "save" his princess were for naught. I think I felt quite cheated at the time (although that could've been the combat), but it served to provide an unexpected end and an emotional response, which can only be a good thing.

 

You know, sometimes I look at things Bioware have done, even after I started cursing their work, and I wonder whether it is truly their fault or just the funnelling of genres in the modern AAA age. Maybe I should hate the game rather than the player.

 

Ho-hum. Anyway...

 

 

Except that FF VII doesn't have any form of romance and has always been imposed by its fans. In fact, Cloud is completely friendzoned.

 

[milczyciel]

Except that FF VII doesn't have any form of romance and has always been imposed by its fans. In fact, Cloud is completely friendzoned.

And that suddenly changed my whole FFVII experience for the better!

jk - I still find it horrible

 

But I'm not interested in arguing - if someone enjoys that kind of story telling then why should I tell him otherwise.

 

 

...as a "good" character in DA:O, one of the best romances in western crpgs I've witnessed was the one my PC had with Morrigan; 

simply because unlike in most other games my character ended up being the one who was used - and all the high and mighty attempts to "save" his princess were for naught. I think I felt quite cheated at the time (although that could've been the combat), but it served to provide an unexpected end and an emotional response, which can only be a good thing.

I'll partially agree. Sure it was not your typical good ending, but neither was Vicionia's epilogue from ToB in that matter. And I may not remember every detail, but I'm almost 100% sure that she either voiced her sorrow, or it was heavily suggested (that ring she gave you?). Even getting on her good side was done in almost exactly same manner as it was in Viconia's case.

Plus - let us not forget about the "Witch Hunt" DLC, because with that one in mind, her story could arguably get a "happy end" closure (at least until whatever happens in DA:I)

 

All of the above makes me recognize Morrigan's arc as very well written and superbly acted (Claudia Black ftw) but ultimately derivative. Nothing new under the sun.

Edited February 11, 2014 by milczyciel

[Grivenger]

 

Except that FF VII doesn't have any form of romance and has always been imposed by its fans. In fact, Cloud is completely friendzoned.

 

And that suddenly changed my whole FFVII experience for the better!

jk - I still find it horrible

 

But I'm not interested in arguing - if someone enjoys that kind of story telling then why should I tell him otherwise.

It was never about arguing really, there was simply nothing in the story to indicate romance. It is a much stronger narrative if people realise Tifa is doing her best to make Cloud remember, including an attempt to replicate past infatuations. But she is really nothing more than his best friend. Aeris's interest stems from the fact Cloud imitates a part of Zack's history, her former boyfriend. She quickly backs off though once she realises they are two different people after all.

 

Unfortunately, I don't think you can really replicate a good romance in a choice based game. Mass Effect romances worked in the same way onscreen romances work in blockbusters - both lack a little depth.

 

Maybe the problem stems from the fact that players require a reward of some sort, or because games treat the romance bit as a reward