Fog of War

[TRoar]

In the friendly fire thread I mentioned that the infinity engine fog of war wasn't the best, and could do with an upgrade.

 

I posted some suggestions about how I thought the fog of war might be improved on the rpgcodex forums and thought I'd share them here for people to discuss and for the devs to consider.

 

Something I've never seen done with fog of war in iso games is gradation of fog of war. It could be too dark to see into in the distance, murky at mid to far distance where you might vaguely see something move but more than likely not, mid distance where movement is more noticeable and objects start to take shape and size, near distance where the player can tell if a creature is humanoid or other and have a better idea of it's size (and at this distance the creature could be targeted with a ranged weapon if desired with a negative modifier to hit it...), before being in direct and clear view in the immediate vicinity of the PC. Also, if the engine is 3D, being in an elevated position could increase the diameter of the players field of view to get the lay of the land, spy enemies, etc... Night time could reduce the diameter. If your PC carries a torch at night, creatures could be scripted to hover at the edge of the field of light...

This kind of 'dynamic' fog of war I think would be nice.

 

I also think it would be nice if the view distance were greater and the interaction distance with npcs (of the highwaymen/thugs/enemy party/Tarnor's party [bG2 sewers reference] type) was less than the view radius so you don't suddenly find yourself having a conversation with Tarnor a group of psychopaths that will butcher you.

 

Thoughts?

Edited January 18, 2014 by TRoar

[Plutone00]

It would be nice if Perception stat affected the view distance. Rangers receiving a bonus to view radius would also make sense.

[TRoar]

Nice, I totally hadn't considered that, and it makes very good sense.

[JFSOCC]

I wonder if it is possible to script certain parts of the map, so that when you walk on them, it reveals parts of the map which couldn't otherwise be revealed. (like the roofs of big buildings which you'd always keep partly blacked out)

[IndiraLightfoot]

Anything in PE approaching Company of Heroes 2 brilliant fog of war system would be great, so when you move, the fog of war actually behaves more realistically with different kinds of structures and obstacles hindering the line of sight depending on viewing angle (and why not for viewer as well. An elf perhaps sees better/more than an Amaua, for instance, but perhaps not under water.)

[TRoar]

Good question JFSOCC. I think they could, if not script, then at least make it so that there is an object blocking the view of the top of a building. I like where that's going, because then it's the party that's exploring (i.e. the game is more from the parties perspective than the players).

 

Indira, I had someone on rpgcodex refer me to company of heroes 2, also. I really like what I saw of it. One of the nicest touches was smoke obscuring vision. Really cool I thought.

 

I know this isn't really an exciting subject, but does anyone else agree that the fog of war needs some work? That it could improve the game? Should mechanics come into it? Or that it's not really relevant for some reason?

Edited January 20, 2014 by TRoar

[Lephys]

Maybe D&D-esque spells such as Obscuring Mist would be a lot more useful, then. Even if the AI is good and deems one of your characters a priority threat (based on the hostile creature doing the targeting), if you call up a bunch of fog around you and your party, they can't tell which of you is where, now. Maybe they accidentally fire off spells and arrows at the prepared Fighter with the Shield in Defensive mode. *shrug*

 

Or, they just angrily charge into the fog/smoke, and you've already moved out, behind it, and laid traps in it, or are poised to pounce upon them when they come through it, etc.

[TRoar]

That's the kind of pen and paper knowledge that I don't have. Awesome ideas, Lephys!

[SophosTheWise]

Anything in PE approaching Company of Heroes 2 brilliant fog of war system would be great, so when you move, the fog of war actually behaves more realistically with different kinds of structures and obstacles hindering the line of sight depending on viewing angle (and why not for viewer as well. An elf perhaps sees better/more than an Amaua, for instance, but perhaps not under water.)

 

I actually hated that in Project Zomboid where you coulnd't see the Zombies onscreen when you weren't facing them. So basically if you were running away from Zombies you had no idea what was behind you. I mean I get the idea and I get that that is supposed to be realistic. But it looks and feels awful and I see absolutely no gameplay merit in view blocking.

[Lephys]

I actually hated that in Project Zomboid where you coulnd't see the Zombies onscreen when you weren't facing them. So basically if you were running away from Zombies you had no idea what was behind you. I mean I get the idea and I get that that is supposed to be realistic. But it looks and feels awful and I see absolutely no gameplay merit in view blocking.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of quite that level of vision simulation. It makes perfect sense in a first-or-close-third-person game, but in those games, you can't see things behind you because the camera is basically fixed to your character's perspective. I'm fine with distance/obscurity (darkness, fog, etc.), but I don't think facing should make things vanish. I mean, sure, it's abstracted that you can see in 360-degrees, but, it's representative of both:

 

A) The fact that you don't just suddenly think there's NOT a Rogue behind you simply because you turned around, and

B) The fact that you can turn your head at any point to check behind you, for the most part.

 

Obstacles/line of sight? Sure. View facing? Nah. Not in a top-down, isometric game. Or... not one that isn't specifically designed around that, at least. If it was a horror game or something? Sure. But then, like I said, it's way more effective to just use 1st-person view at that point.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Lephys

[TRoar]

I agree with the both of you about keeping the 360 degree view around party members. It does sound like it would be too tricky to manage a 'realistic' field of vision in a game like this.

Edited January 22, 2014 by TRoar

[rjshae]

I had this notion for a "fade in" FoW. Since the stealth mechanic uses outer and inner detection radii, the area inside the inner circle could be fully shown, while the area between the inner and outer radii can be gradually faded into view. (To make it smooth, the fade in rate increases with decreasing radii.) If you just stand there, then the outer ring will gradually appear, allowing you to look ahead.

 

This would increase the game save overhead, but I think it adds a little drama.

[rjshae]

To implement that, they could just do an FoW mesh array of single bytes listing percent revealed at each vertex across an area, then interpolate in between the vertices. I guess it wouldn't be that expensive in terms of save overhead after all.

[Lephys]

It's a pretty cool idea, . I know hardly anything about the technical requirements for that, so I can't really comment on that aspect.