Turn-Based or Real Time

[Helm]

 

 

I don't really see an issue with RTwP. With the right auto-pause settings, you can turn it into a turn-based game. And if you disable auto-pause, you have a real-time game. Everybody happy, a win-win scenario. Why limit a game to 1 mechanic, if you can have everything.

So way to go PoE

While I'm ok with either RtwP or TB I disagre with this a bit. I mean you couldn't have Fallout 2's combat system hold up if you just let it be RtwP. The whole thing is based around action points for movement or attacking and it just wouldn't translate without tearing down the whole combat system.

 

Personally I was very happy with Torment becoming a TB game as I find their combat systems stand up to the test of time a bit better than RtwP. Also there are just too few true TB games out there for my tastes. :-p

What? WHAT? WHAAAAT?!?!

 

There are bucketloads of turn-based games out in the wild and on kickstarter. RTwP games are very rare, only BioWare's games and Project Eternity use RTwP, and that's it! I can't think of any other notable examples.

To be honest, I am not even sure if there are any RTwP shovelware titles, but who cares. Shovelware is crap, as the notation denotes, and therefore does not count.

 

 

 

 

This is great to hear, I just realized that I wasted some of my money on Torment: Tides of Numenera, which is a shame. Turn based combat is so boring, I can't believe that they'll ruin the game doing this.. If only I could get back my pledge there I could use those money to raise my pledge for Pillars of Eternity..

Torment ruined by turn based combat system... implying Torment is about combat

If it doesn't matter, because Torment isn't about combat, then why must the combat be changed from RTwP to turn-based?

 

Contradictions, contradictions.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Helm

[Tamerlane]

TToN changed from RTwP? I wasn't aware tabletop Numenera had real-time combat. Monte Cook sure has some ambitious designs.

[Mor]

I mean you couldn't have Fallout 2's combat system hold up if you just let it be RtwP.

Of course not. Sure you could shot the guy in the nuts, but lets be honest other than that fallout combat system was as basic as it gets. Compared to RTwP BG combat it was a joke, which is why it needed turns to add a tactical component to it.

[Helm]

TToN changed from RTwP? I wasn't aware tabletop Numenera had real-time combat. Monte Cook sure has some ambitious designs.

AD&D doesn't have real-time combat either. Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate are based on AD&D and are RTwP games. Mindblowing, I know.

 

Anyway, Torment was "marketed" as a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment during the Kickstarter, but that is not what the backers will get.

[Osvir]

TToN changed from RTwP? I wasn't aware tabletop Numenera had real-time combat. Monte Cook sure has some ambitious designs.

The tabletop game is just Numenera, the cRPG is Torment: Tides of Numenera (TToN).

 

@Topic, again: First of all *slowclap* @Helm, very good post and right on spot.

 

I've talked about this before in another thread.

 

I hope TToN gets great reception and is a great experience, but I am concerned that we'll get a "This is nothing like Planescape!!" because of Turn-Based and it's a "Spiritual Successor" to the same game. Why? Because whether the game is Turn-Based, Real-Time, Top-Down, First Person, 3rd Person, Driving Game or whatever... it determines how you, the Player, experiences the game world. It is how you move in the world, how you interract, how you prepare and how you deal with combat. It determines your mindset and mentality when you tackle the game in overall.

 

Suffice to say it affects a lot. "Shadowrun" and "Shadowrun: Returns" is an excellent example of this in my opinion. Albeit Shadowrun is a primitive game nowadays, it still had the freedom of movement, Shadowrun: Returns does not. Don't get me wrong, I love Turn-Based games but they do restrict in a way that Real-Time does not. You are always "locked" on a "square" or a "hex" or whatever you walk on in Turn-Based games.

 

I believe it'll be a great game, but I have this 50/50 BioWare feeling going on... ya know... "Dragon Age is a Baldur's Gate spiritual successor" deal.

[Mor]

@Topic, again

True, but for that matter this thread isn't about Pillars of Eternity Gameplay & Mechanics, OP question was asked and answered, so at best we are driving in neutral, since the combat mechanic for PE is a done deal. At worst its a rehash of good old argument, which was recently discussed in thread here and was kicked to obsidian general gaming and something forum. So what is on/off topic is very loosely defined

[Osvir]

So why aren't we discussing the glorious gloriousness of RTwP that can (with the right options) act as both Real Time and Turn-Based?

Furthermore... in the PCWorld Interview (scroll down to the bottom) with Obsidian (Adam Brennecke, Josh Sawyer), Adam, mentions that it would be easier to mod rules (just for comparison and relevancy thereof: Environments are difficult to mod in)... so with that said...

Eternity would allow someone to, potentially and with a lot of work done to it, mod in Turn-Based conceptual rules So what is superior? The one stuck in Turn-Based or the one with Real Time with Pause and a future (potentially) Turn-Based Mod?

EDIT: Was that a cosmic table flip I heard?

Edited December 15, 2013 by Osvir

[Tamerlane]

 

TToN changed from RTwP? I wasn't aware tabletop Numenera had real-time combat. Monte Cook sure has some ambitious designs.

AD&D doesn't have real-time combat either. Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate are based on AD&D and are RTwP games. Mindblowing, I know.

 

I know, what a casual baby dumbing down betrayal of its glorious inspiration, right?

[Helm]

 

 

 

TToN changed from RTwP? I wasn't aware tabletop Numenera had real-time combat. Monte Cook sure has some ambitious designs.

AD&D doesn't have real-time combat either. Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate are based on AD&D and are RTwP games. Mindblowing, I know.

 

I know, what a casual baby dumbing down betrayal of its glorious inspiration, right?

Are you trying to say that PoE would have been better if it had turn-based combat?

[Tamerlane]

 

 

 

TToN changed from RTwP? I wasn't aware tabletop Numenera had real-time combat. Monte Cook sure has some ambitious designs.

AD&D doesn't have real-time combat either. Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate are based on AD&D and are RTwP games. Mindblowing, I know.

 

I know, what a casual baby dumbing down betrayal of its glorious inspiration, right?

Are you trying to say that PoE would have been better if it had turn-based combat?

 

Absolutely not.

 

I'm trying to say that TToN is a turn-based game based on a turn-based system that is the pseudo-sequel to a real-time game that roughly adapted a turn-based system made by a company with very recent and applicable experience working with turn-based systems. And if this is upsetting or seems like a betrayal of trust to anyone, then I am trying to say to them, "It is you. You are the fun-hating baby."

 

PoE is built from the ground up as a real-time game and as a PC game (as opposed to being an adaptation of tabletop rules), and I fully expect it will come out mechanically superior to both TToN and the IE games for those (and other) reasons.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Tamerlane

[Helm]

 

 

If it doesn't matter, because Torment isn't about combat, then why must the combat be changed from RTwP to turn-based?

Contradictions, contradictions.

Changed? The game is not even fully out of conceptual stage. The developers chose to have TB. Plain and simple. They thought that for their game TB is the way to go.

Planescape: Torment is the spiritual predecessor, or better said WAS the spiritual predecessor, and it has RTwP combat. I think this has been said enough.

 

But I don't care anyway. Maybe I will play it, maybe I won't. I didn't back anyway. I feel sorry for those who did though.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Helm

[Sensuki]

I have a question to those who hate turn based. What difficulty do you usually play RPGs on ?

[Helm]

All I know is that if you are inept and sluggish you just might find RTwP confusing. The good thing about turn-based games is that even an old senile fart can play them.

[Zaccaro]

I remember there being something about making the Turn based combat as hectic as possible with a lot of tweaking. Am I remembering this wrong? Possibly, but I am eager to see their take on it. Especially remembering Dragon Age's turn based combat.

[Silent Winter]

I used to be a big fan of TB, let me take my time and mull over decisions.

Then I played BG and fell in love with RTwP.

I think TB can work well for some games (Final Fantasies pre:12 were better for me than 12) - playing TOEE right now and it's fine (ok, a little sluggish against a horde of goblins but those encounters are few enough - only really a problem when I fail all my initiative rolls and my mage gets killed before being able to lift a finger - can even happen with 'improved initiative' - but I digress).

I'm glad PE is RTwP.

 

As for PS:T - combat was never it's strong suit - it never felt as fluid or engaging as in BG or IWD for me (though I had big problems with game-breaking bugs playing PS:T so maybe my opinion is tainted).

[Sensuki]

All I know is that if you are inept and sluggish you just might find RTwP confusing. The good thing about turn-based games is that even an old senile fart can play them.

 

That is a severe misconception. Have you ever played a hard turn based game?

 

go play Knights of the Chalice or Jagged Alliance 2 1.13 bro, come back and tell me how well you did.

 

For the record I really like real-time with pause, but I find it hilarious how many RtWP fans hate turn-based. Whereas most of the turn-based fans enjoy both.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Sensuki

[PrimeJunta]

Are you trying to say that PoE would have been better if it had turn-based combat?

:me raises hand:

 

I think PoE would be better with turn-based combat.

 

Reason: ToEE. It would be nice to get an actual game with the combat one day.

 

I like RTS, but it's better suited for actual, y'know, RTS games. Where you fight more or less by positioning a number of more or less identical units, after which their AI takes over. In a party-based cRPG, each unit is unique and different and the major part of the fun is managing their unique and different special abilities. This is a natural better fit for TB.

 

My favorite combat in strategy games is Total War. My favorite combat in party-based cRPG's is ToEE. PoE would've been better with turn-based combat. Now the best we can hope for is best in class for RTwP. That's not bad, but it could've been better.

Edited December 15, 2013 by PrimeJunta

[teknoman2]

 

TToN changed from RTwP? I wasn't aware tabletop Numenera had real-time combat. Monte Cook sure has some ambitious designs.

AD&D doesn't have real-time combat either. Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate are based on AD&D and are RTwP games. Mindblowing, I know.

 

Anyway, Torment was "marketed" as a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment during the Kickstarter, but that is not what the backers will get.

 

let's see. torment was a game about the journey of an immortal nameless amnesiac in search of his past. 90% of the gameplay was about his interaction with the world and people around him and how these interactions shaped his character in the attempt of the one who gave him immortality to understand the nature of men. combat was a minor part of the whole, meant to provide some chalenge to a game that played more as an adventure, and was what it was because the more combat oriented BG and IWD had the system ready.

and about the contradictions, since combat is not the important part it doesnt really matter if it is TB or RT, so you cant just say "the game is ruined because of the combat system". arcanum had a combat system that sucked in both RT and TB mode, yet it is hailed as one of the best RPG ever

[Fatback]

I feel that with rtwp and a party this size you pause issue commands wait for execution pause again. Might as well be turn based. This basically leads me to just passive play.

 

But what I am most excited about is what obsidian said about being able to slow the combat speed which would allow me to key bind everything and with click targets I should not have to pause ever.

 

Can't wait for that dance across a key board gonna be way more a complex rotation of skills than any mmo or game I've played ever. That's what I am most excited about.

 

I wrote this on my phone in between seating a at work so don't hate on punctuation and grammar.

[Althernai]

I think PoE would be better with turn-based combat.

 

Reason: ToEE. It would be nice to get an actual game with the combat one day.

I've seen this mentioned multiple times by several different people on these forums and I'm genuinely confused. ToEE means Temple of Elemental Evil, right? I got that game as a gift from a friend soon after it was released. Of all of the turn based games I've played, it is most certainly not the one I would bring up in an argument about how turn based games can be good.

 

First, that has to be one of the buggiest games I've ever played. My most vivid memory of the combat was that at some point I used a spell that summoned a moon dog (or something of the sort, I don't remember the exact name) and the creature just wouldn't go away. It could not be killed and it persisted across multiple fights. At first, I thought there was some kind of time limit and reloading later would require a lot of backtracking so I just kept going -- it stayed with me even through the final battle. There were other bugs, I just don't remember them as well.

 

Second, even if we ignore the bugs, I don't remember anything about it would make it the paragon of turn based games. A substantial section of it was low-level D&D with its usual flaws (luck matters a lot and player options are limited). The encounter design and variety were mediocre. I'm trying to think of what aspect of the combat could be considered great and nothing comes to mind -- the game just didn't make much of an impression.

 

Basically, if I compare ToEE to a good RTwP game like, say, BG2:SoA (in terms of combat alone, never mind the story and such), the latter wins by a lot. It's not close at all to the point where it's not something I would consider debatable. Maybe you can explain what was so good about the turn based combat in ToEE?

[Gyges]

Voted turn based for Torment and had fun trolling the RTWP qq'ers in the Kickstarter comments.

 

Monster, those were my tears.

[Sensuki]

Too bad, l2play turn-based .

Edited December 16, 2013 by Sensuki

[Osvir]

Too bad, l2playatience turn-based .

corrected

[Helm]

 

 

All I know is that if you are inept and sluggish you just might find RTwP confusing. The good thing about turn-based games is that even an old senile fart can play them.

That is a severe misconception. Have you ever played a hard turn based game?

 

go play Knights of the Chalice or Jagged Alliance 2 1.13 bro, come back and tell me how well you did.

Interesting how you assume that I have never played Jagged Alliance 2 or any "hard" turn-based game.

 

Like I said, if you can play realtime with pause games, then turn-based games are no problem.

 

For the record I really like real-time with pause, but I find it hilarious how many RtWP fans hate turn-based. Whereas most of the turn-based fans enjoy both.

Interesting. Then from a marketing perspective RTwP is the better choice, because more people like it. rofl

 

I also find it interesting how you think that the sluggish and inept have absolutely no problem playing RTwP games. How many times have I read "RTwP is confusing, and the combat is too fast, I can't into that. Derp, derp, derp".

[Helm]

and about the contradictions, since combat is not the important part it doesnt really matter if it is TB or RT, so you cant just say "the game is ruined because of the combat system".

If it doesn't matter, because Torment isn't about combat, then why must it have turn-based combat and not RTwP combat like the spiritual predecessor?

 

arcanum had a combat system that sucked in both RT and TB mode, yet it is hailed as one of the best RPG ever

A decent combat system would have vastly improved Arcanum.