Once again Difficulty Discussion: Stamina, Health, World Traveling

[Osvir]

These are some brainstormed ideas in reply to another thread, I understand that Eternity is well underway production. See this more as inspiration for future IP's or future Eternity's. I touch a lot of subjects in a single thread here, the idea is consistent and as a whole simply different puzzle pieces to a larger picture.

I call it Diamondman Mode (previously known as "HellMetal Mode" or "Strongman Mode", and reluctantly "Old-Meets-New Mode"), which I find appropriate. This is an idea to get the game as difficult, but manageable, as possible. Rogue-like-ish, and in my opinion an interesting system~formula.

- Permadeath (With limited ressurrection in-game side-stories, choices or whatnot, until "Ressurrection Spell" mod or "Temple Mod" etc. etc.) 
- Diamondman Save System. Start Game. Play Game. Can't Save. Save & Quit. Load Save, Save gets Deleted. Play Game. Save & Quit. Etc. etc. Choice: Use Ironman Save System instead if the game is known to crash on your hardware.
- Difficult Economy

 

- Difficult-est AI that act in teamwork and AI micro-manage. 
-- Stand-outs. Your Fighter stands just waiting for the other AI Fighter is waiting for you to make a move, meanwhile the AI Archers or similar move out. Difficult enough for the Player to hit space, scratch their hopeful and potential beard and practically play a Chess turn. Make a move, and the AI reacts. Turn-Based Reactivity but Realtime with Pause.

-- Stand-out Example: So I face a group of 3:
--- Enemy has 1 Fighter, 1 Ranger, 1 Priest, All Level 5

--- I have 1 Fighter, 1 Rogue, All Level 8

1. Pause.
2. Move Fighter forward. Stealth Rogue.
3. Unpause.
4. Fighter moves forward, Enemy Fighter backs.
5. Ranger moves to the side, in reaction.
6. Priest stays behind Fighter.
7. Pause.

Instead, had I chosen to simply stay the initial position, the Enemy Fighter would have (in this case) stood his ground and not advanced until feasible. Chances are that they would advance instantly, as they would only see 1 Fighter (Rogue Stealthed), 3 vs 1. But because you Stealthed when combat was engaged, the AI would know that the Rogue is there (they just wouldn't be able to see it). So the AI Fighter would still stand his ground, and the Ranger might even stick closer to the Fighter.

- Everything above about "Stand-Outs": AI Reactivity to the situation, from their perspective.
 

Tactical Statistic Management (Health, Stamina, [Food & Water?])
- Resting limited to once every 16th in-game hour, Sleep less and your Stamina suffers ([stamina Sickness])
-- 1. Wilderness Resting (World Map). Worst Stamina Gain. No Resting Bonus+Potential Random Encounters
-- 2. Camp Resting (Locations). Camp Bonus. Costs resources to light a fire.
-- 3. Inn Resting (Towns). Inn Bonus.
-- 4. Stronghold Resting (Stronghold). Best Stamina Gain. Stronghold Bonus.
- Limited Carrying Capacity
- Weight Modifying Stats

 

- Time Passes on your Characters (Aging) and can eventually die of old age (Again, Main Character Dies, game goes on. Adventurer's Hall Companions 100% in attempts to beat the game).
- Adventurer's Hall Companions cost money, a lot of it. Leaves if not economically maintained.
- Option to turn Adventurer's Hall "Off" entirely. Closed for Business.
- No Descriptions. Spells or Abilities have no description, the Player would have to do the Spell/Ability, observe it/the effects and then explain it.
- No Map/Minimap equivalent (Draw your own in "Paint" software or with physical Pen & Paper)
- No "Updated My Journal". Write everything yourself using an In-Game Journal/Notepad. Write down what NPC's talk about, Quests, objects and observations. Whatever. A game diary/experience.

Stamina Example: 
-- Stamina is 100%, as you fights and wander and time passes, you gradually get lower (say, 80%). 
-- At 80% you are still at full capacity and gains all "bonuses" from Resting. 
-- At 60% you choose to drink a glass of water or, heck, eat something. Stamina raises to 70%. 
-- After a while, you hit 25% or less, and you start to see some minor penalties (Been awake too long? Fought too many battles and made bad moves? Remember: If you lose 75% after Resting in an 1 in-game hour, you wouldn't be able to Rest again)
-- At 0% in battle, you would obviously pass out and make a better target [Fainted]
-- After battle, gain 10% Stamina to survive with for a while.
-- "Waiting" or "Meditating" or maybe even "Gathering Energy" could place one of your characters inactive during combat to tick some extra +1% Stamina Points. Let's call it [short Rest]. Basically the character taking a breather. Again, maybe drinks some water.

Life Points instead of Health Points: 
-- Starting with 10/10. 
-- As you level up, you gain more (13/13 for instance). If you'd lose 1 LP, down at 9/10, gain a level, you'd be at 12/13.
-- Life Points can not be healed. A One-Time-Choice Quest perhaps, "Do I want to Heal all LP or do I want to ressurect a fallen companion?" kind of thing.
-- A Life Point is something you can lose in a simple mistake in battle. 
-- A Life Point would also be lost due to [Aging]
-- A game could be played without losing a single Life Point if playing through the game fast enough, but it'd be a challenge to do so for sure. 

... and a side-dish option
- Game does not end when Main Character dies (Only when the full party dies. In a way, like X-COM missions, you can lose 3 guys but still win with 1 guy. I envision a game (not necessarily PE, but maybe inspiration~). The same goes for Icewind Dale, if one of your characters dies (and you are playing without ressurect) you can still beat the game. Why? Because I believe my [Diamondman] concept is so difficult that your main character could and 70%-80% chance of going down (unless playing really slow, resourceful and thoughtful).

And World Map Traveling:
- Costs Stamina
- Realms of Arcania/Fallout/Ultima+Baldur's Gate Traveling System.
-- Be a small (scaled to size of the world, or Fallout Incognito wise) "Ultima"-esque figure/icon on a large beautiful canvas.
-- Get a horse, add an appropriate icon. Travels faster, in case there are "Events" in the world that you can intercept. 
-- Xenonauts Radar Concept, but mobile as the party moves. See a Caravan Icon nearby? Intercept or ignore it, potentially even see some Bandit Icons take over the Caravan. Gives the Player Choice "Do I want to engage in this Random Event now or do I want to observe what happens?".
-- Can Rest in the Wilds (or "Wait")
- Adventure Game Obstacles: "You need the Monocle of Mirrors to open the 'Gate'"

And of course, the most important aspect:
- Random Hellfire and Reign of Chaos meteors with demons.

TL;DR: Braaaaiiinsssstorm

Edited November 8, 2013 by Osvir

[BruceVC]

These are some brainstormed ideas in reply to another thread, I understand that Eternity is well underway production. See this more as inspiration for future IP's or future Eternity's. I touch a lot of subjects in a single thread here, the idea is consistent and as a whole simply different puzzle pieces to a larger picture.

 

I call it Diamondman Mode (previously known as "HellMetal Mode" or "Strongman Mode", and reluctantly "Old-Meets-New Mode"), which I find appropriate. This is an idea to get the game as difficult, but manageable, as possible. Rogue-like-ish, and in my opinion an interesting system~formula.

 

- Permadeath (With limited ressurrection in-game side-stories, choices or whatnot, until "Ressurrection Spell" mod or "Temple Mod" etc. etc.) 

- Diamondman Save System. Start Game. Play Game. Can't Save. Save & Quit. Load Save, Save gets Deleted. Play Game. Save & Quit. Etc. etc. Choice: Use Ironman Save System instead if the game is known to crash on your hardware.

- Difficult Economy

 

- Difficult-est AI that act in teamwork and AI micro-manage. 

-- Stand-outs. Your Fighter stands just waiting for the other AI Fighter is waiting for you to make a move, meanwhile the AI Archers or similar move out. Difficult enough for the Player to hit space, scratch their hopeful and potential beard and practically play a Chess turn. Make a move, and the AI reacts. Turn-Based Reactivity but Realtime with Pause.

-- Stand-out Example: So I face a group of 3:

--- Enemy has 1 Fighter, 1 Ranger, 1 Priest, All Level 5

--- I have 1 Fighter, 1 Rogue, All Level 8

 

1. Pause.

2. Move Fighter forward. Stealth Rogue.

3. Unpause.

4. Fighter moves forward, Enemy Fighter backs.

5. Ranger moves to the side, in reaction.

6. Priest stays behind Fighter.

7. Pause.

 

Instead, had I chosen to simply stay the initial position, the Enemy Fighter would have (in this case) stood his ground and not advanced until feasible. Chances are that they would advance instantly, as they would only see 1 Fighter (Rogue Stealthed), 3 vs 1. But because you Stealthed when combat was engaged, the AI would know that the Rogue is there (they just wouldn't be able to see it). So the AI Fighter would still stand his ground, and the Ranger might even stick closer to the Fighter.

 

- Everything above about "Stand-Outs": AI Reactivity to the situation, from their perspective.

 

Tactical Statistic Management (Health, Stamina, [Food & Water?])

- Resting limited to once every 16th in-game hour, Sleep less and your Stamina suffers ([stamina Sickness])

-- 1. Wilderness Resting (World Map). Worst Stamina Gain. No Resting Bonus+Potential Random Encounters

-- 2. Camp Resting (Locations). Camp Bonus. Costs resources to light a fire.

-- 3. Inn Resting (Towns). Inn Bonus.

-- 4. Stronghold Resting (Stronghold). Best Stamina Gain. Stronghold Bonus.

- Limited Carrying Capacity

- Weight Modifying Stats

 

- Time Passes on your Characters (Aging) and can eventually die of old age (Again, Main Character Dies, game goes on. Adventurer's Hall Companions 100% in attempts to beat the game).

- Adventurer's Hall Companions cost money, a lot of it. Leaves if not economically maintained.

- Option to turn Adventurer's Hall "Off" entirely. Closed for Business.

- No Descriptions. Spells or Abilities have no description, the Player would have to do the Spell/Ability, observe it/the effects and then explain it.

- No Map/Minimap equivalent (Draw your own in "Paint" software or with physical Pen & Paper)

- No "Updated My Journal". Write everything yourself using an In-Game Journal/Notepad. Write down what NPC's talk about, Quests, objects and observations. Whatever. A game diary/experience.

 

Stamina Example: 

-- Stamina is 100%, as you fights and wander and time passes, you gradually get lower (say, 80%). 

-- At 80% you are still at full capacity and gains all "bonuses" from Resting. 

-- At 60% you choose to drink a glass of water or, heck, eat something. Stamina raises to 70%. 

-- After a while, you hit 25% or less, and you start to see some minor penalties (Been awake too long? Fought too many battles and made bad moves? Remember: If you lose 75% after Resting in an 1 in-game hour, you wouldn't be able to Rest again)

-- At 0% in battle, you would obviously pass out and make a better target [Fainted]

-- After battle, gain 10% Stamina to survive with for a while.

-- "Waiting" or "Meditating" or maybe even "Gathering Energy" could place one of your characters inactive during combat to tick some extra +1% Stamina Points. Let's call it [short Rest]. Basically the character taking a breather. Again, maybe drinks some water.

 

Life Points instead of Health Points: 

-- Starting with 10/10. 

-- As you level up, you gain more (13/13 for instance). If you'd lose 1 LP, down at 9/10, gain a level, you'd be at 12/13.

-- Life Points can not be healed. A One-Time-Choice Quest perhaps, "Do I want to Heal all LP or do I want to ressurect a fallen companion?" kind of thing.

-- A Life Point is something you can lose in a simple mistake in battle. 

-- A Life Point would also be lost due to [Aging]

-- A game could be played without losing a single Life Point if playing through the game fast enough, but it'd be a challenge to do so for sure. 

 

... and a side-dish option

- Game does not end when Main Character dies (Only when the full party dies. In a way, like X-COM missions, you can lose 3 guys but still win with 1 guy. I envision a game (not necessarily PE, but maybe inspiration~). The same goes for Icewind Dale, if one of your characters dies (and you are playing without ressurect) you can still beat the game. Why? Because I believe my [Diamondman] concept is so difficult that your main character could and 70%-80% chance of going down (unless playing really slow, resourceful and thoughtful).

 

And World Map Traveling:

- Costs Stamina

- Realms of Arcania/Fallout/Ultima+Baldur's Gate Traveling System.

-- Be a small (scaled to size of the world, or Fallout Incognito wise) "Ultima"-esque figure/icon on a large beautiful canvas.

-- Get a horse, add an appropriate icon. Travels faster, in case there are "Events" in the world that you can intercept. 

-- Xenonauts Radar Concept, but mobile as the party moves. See a Caravan Icon nearby? Intercept or ignore it, potentially even see some Bandit Icons take over the Caravan. Gives the Player Choice "Do I want to engage in this Random Event now or do I want to observe what happens?".

-- Can Rest in the Wilds (or "Wait")

- Adventure Game Obstacles: "You need the Monocle of Mirrors to open the 'Gate'"

 

And of course, the most important aspect:

- Random Hellfire and Reign of Chaos meteors with demons.

 

TL;DR: Braaaaiiinsssstorm

 

You've raised some interesting idea's

 

Some make sense to me like the aging impact but some I think would overly complicate the game for me, like not knowing what spells are what. I think most of your  ideas would only be relevant to a few hard-core gamers. I'm not saying they are wrong, I'm just saying they won't be popular for the mainstream RPG audience.

 

But good post anyway

[Orogun01]

These are good brainstorming ideas but they are not a game, you should focus on a coherent overall experience instead of a mishmash of good ideas thrown together. Take out what is not necessary, figure out what's important and eliminate what goes against it.
On a more specific note, some of the ideas are counter intuitive to the interaction of player and game in particular the ones that have the player doing their own journal work. Aside from the fact that not everyone is up to the task (I know i'm not) it takes away from what's important, playing the game.

Like I said, you need to take these ideas and turn it into a cohesive game. Otherwise it's just thoughts on the ether, they may be nice but they don't have matter.

[BruceVC]

These are good brainstorming ideas but they are not a game, you should focus on a coherent overall experience instead of a mishmash of good ideas thrown together. Take out what is not necessary, figure out what's important and eliminate what goes against it.

On a more specific note, some of the ideas are counter intuitive to the interaction of player and game in particular the ones that have the player doing their own journal work. Aside from the fact that not everyone is up to the task (I know i'm not) it takes away from what's important, playing the game.

Like I said, you need to take these ideas and turn it into a cohesive game. Otherwise it's just thoughts on the ether, they may be nice but they don't have matter.

 

You have raised a good point. Where do we draw the line from being overly fastidious around hard-core rules and the reality where a person stops playing or enjoying the game as they try to follow these rules.

[Sensuki]

impressive gnomish nocturnal open reading everyday

[Orogun01]

 

These are good brainstorming ideas but they are not a game, you should focus on a coherent overall experience instead of a mishmash of good ideas thrown together. Take out what is not necessary, figure out what's important and eliminate what goes against it.

On a more specific note, some of the ideas are counter intuitive to the interaction of player and game in particular the ones that have the player doing their own journal work. Aside from the fact that not everyone is up to the task (I know i'm not) it takes away from what's important, playing the game.

Like I said, you need to take these ideas and turn it into a cohesive game. Otherwise it's just thoughts on the ether, they may be nice but they don't have matter.

 

You have raised a good point. Where do we draw the line from being overly fastidious around hard-core rules and the reality where a person stops playing or enjoying the game as they try to follow these rules.

 

It depends on what the core of the game is, for a game like ARMA that is closer to being a simulation would probably not benefit from some of the mechanics of a game like COD.

So it depends more on what your target audience is, what kind of game you're trying to build and how the mechanics may aid or hinder the overall experience. There is not such thing as a line but there is only what is playable, because in the end if your game is too frustrating with too little reward players are going to stop playing. 

[Osvir]

These are good brainstorming ideas but they are not a game, you should focus on a coherent overall experience instead of a mishmash of good ideas thrown together. Take out what is not necessary, figure out what's important and eliminate what goes against it.

On a more specific note, some of the ideas are counter intuitive to the interaction of player and game in particular the ones that have the player doing their own journal work. Aside from the fact that not everyone is up to the task (I know i'm not) it takes away from what's important, playing the game.

Like I said, you need to take these ideas and turn it into a cohesive game. Otherwise it's just thoughts on the ether, they may be nice but they don't have matter.

It is a homage to an older style type of "gameplay". I am reluctant to say "gameplay" in this regard really, what I am going for is the experience. It is a personal experience though, and it was the excitement of playing Might & Magic 1 with a pen & paper on the side. I wrote down all the spells myself because I didn't want to google it, drew maps and it was a profound experience in my opinion. I also wrote down all the quests.

 

People didn't seem too un-fond of drawing entire maps themselves for old school dungeon crawlers. Legend of Grimrock even has the option for it. But that's for the map, and I am trying to address journal+spell descriptions too.

 

But what I also try to squeeze in here is clue or detective-work from Adventure Games (Myst, Riven, Monkey Island etc. etc. from the top of my head), which people aren't reluctant to use either, in those genres. Find items, talk to people, figure out what to do instead of getting it "handed" to you in a "Updated My Journal" kind of way.

 

The idea is to take that element from Adventure Games and put it on the hardest difficulty. I believe that taking elements from entirely different genres could benefit the Difficulty level, and more importantly, the experience.

 

 

[BruceVC]

 

These are good brainstorming ideas but they are not a game, you should focus on a coherent overall experience instead of a mishmash of good ideas thrown together. Take out what is not necessary, figure out what's important and eliminate what goes against it.

On a more specific note, some of the ideas are counter intuitive to the interaction of player and game in particular the ones that have the player doing their own journal work. Aside from the fact that not everyone is up to the task (I know i'm not) it takes away from what's important, playing the game.

Like I said, you need to take these ideas and turn it into a cohesive game. Otherwise it's just thoughts on the ether, they may be nice but they don't have matter.

It is a homage to an older style type of "gameplay". I am reluctant to say "gameplay" in this regard really, what I am going for is the experience. It is a personal experience though, and it was the excitement of playing Might & Magic 1 with a pen & paper on the side. I wrote down all the spells myself because I didn't want to google it, drew maps and it was a profound experience in my opinion. I also wrote down all the quests.

 

 

 

 

 

Wow that shows some impressive commitment to an RPG, especially an old game like M&M 1

 

I've never played that game, I know it sounds shallow but the  lack of decent graphics put me off

[jethro]

"the idea is consistent". Not really. Some nice ideas in there, but some more suited to an open world RPG or a different game than PE altogether.

 

A few comments:

 

* Diamondman Save Mode: Either I don't understand it or this is just ironman save mode with the save game deleted as soon as you play. But if you really want to cheat yourself in ironman(which is nonsensical anyway), you would copy the save game before starting the game anyway so it doesn't seem to make any difference. So me not compute???

 

* AI: You want an excellent AI that reacts to you. Won't we all? Your Stand-outs seem to describe exactly how PE's tactical combat might work as described by Josh Sawyer, i.e. the fighter screening the mage, positions becoming important. If the AI is crap and doesn't know how to work with positions in a game with positional tactics, that would be a medium fail, not just for diamondman mode. I'm unsure what RTwP versus turn-based has to do with it though, turn-based would be a much better fit for this.

 

* Aging: Many older games had this but it never had any noticable influence on the game. If made really noticable it would have a similar effect as the time limit in Fallout 1, but improved as there is no hard limit of fail, you just get slowly worse. I'm not a fan of it, but would fit really well into diamondman mode.

 

* No spell descriptions, no mini map: Yes, I like it. Sadly in reality it won't have the desired impact because most players will play a normal game first, then try ironman modes. So they will already have the knowledge, especially about the spells. We need heavy doses of psychopharmaca between games ;-)

 

* Adventure game obstacles: Why should this be confined to Diamondman?

[Osvir]

"the idea is consistent". Not really. Some nice ideas in there, but some more suited to an open world RPG or a different game than PE altogether.

Yes it is. It's puzzle pieces, all of the ideas mashed into one large idea becomes one system or formula (at least in my head, and you know, I wrote it). I just like to write the:

 

-

-

-

 

Bullet-point dealio because it's easier for me to write it out. I'd probably exceed the post limit if I were to type the depth of it down. Bullet-point presentation allows for more interpretation from the reader as well, and if the reader were an Eternity developer they might see or get inspired more rather than potentially be put off by a huge novell. Ideas are like vague "landmarks" obscured by a dim or cloudy horizon. Bullet-points makes it more cloudy, which means that others will see different patterns in the clouds~ metaphor~

 

@Diamondman/Ironman Save System: Because in the olden times Ironman was only Save & Quit and Load = Delete. But today Ironman has been casualized and is an Auto-Saveman Save System. I simply want the old back, because I personally find it more terrifying and it makes me a better Player. It simulates not having a Save at all except when you quit the game. A simulation of "I finished this game in one go with no saves at all".

 

Why dontcha try it? Start a game of your choice, whatever really. Never save the game until you decide to quit playing, then when you load it, tab out, delete the save and continue playing. See if you play differently when you have an auto-save system behind your back. I'm curious if others experience a different mindset as well.

 

@Adventure Game Obstacles: Correct! That slipped in there as a general idea~ not confined.

 

EDIT: I also want to state that when I wrote this brainstorm list I didn't clean it at all. I just wrote down a lot of stuff, you'll see something like "(Again, Main Character dies)" or similar, I wrote that after I had written the "... and a side-dish option". Notice that the former comes first chronologically in the post. I jumped up and down (scrolled) in the text and added stuff to it. So the post itself might not be a consistent writing, the larger picture is. Take all the ingredients and mash in a bowl and it'd be a creme de la creme execution for hardcore players ;P

Edited November 8, 2013 by Osvir

[jethro]

Why dontcha try it? Start a game of your choice, whatever really. Never save the game until you decide to quit playing, then when you load it, tab out, delete the save and continue playing. See if you play differently when you have an auto-save system behind your back. I'm curious if others experience a different mindset as well.

Sure I'll be more anxious, because if the game or my computer crashes I'm as finished as if I lost the game ;-). But I suppose you are thinking of the case where you are on the losing side of a battle and know the next hit will be your end. This would be the time where you could get weak, kill the game before it has a chance to delete the save game and continue. Ok, accepted. I don't believe it makes any difference while playing the game, but in that special moment, yes.

[Osvir]

I mentioned "Time passes" and "Aging" earlier, and I forgot to mention a rather important aspect.

Well, 2, now that I think about it.

1. World changes. A king who gets dethroned by his corrupted son. Wars that end and wars that begins. The world "ages". And not in a WoW kind of way. But imagine if you were to play the entire WarCraft campaign in one go in one game (conceptually). Or the entire TES series, start in the Arena timeline and if time passes as it does in the Lore, you could see lots of stuff happening. Villages that appear were there were none before etc. etc. Quests appearing and disappearing. In TES you're only 1 character though and they span over several 100 years if I recall correctly. In games like Eternity you got a full party and could potentially recruit new members. After 40-50 in-game years, a couple of your characters dies of age and then you continue the game with new party members in a world that "evolves". Civilisation-esque-ish.

2. AI bosses and enemies who ages and dies of old age or whatnot (An evil Wizard who never managed to fulfill his plans dies of age, or gets taken down or sent to prison or whatnot). Creates a dynamic sense in a way. The Gods would of course be Eternal. Bandit groups who go through hierarchy or betrayal of some form. If you arrive at Town 2 on Day 10 it could be a different type of experience (shop owners, NPC's, Quests, Guards etc.etc.) compared to if you arrive on Day 206. Depending on who you aid (Factions) it could even further mess with the dynamics.

Just some added thoughts to the "Time passing" parameter.