Expiring Potions (to discourage excessive resting and potion hoarding)

[TrashMan]

And you need "to discourage excessive resting and potion hoarding" why exactly?

Frequent resting\hoarding of others does not a) affect overall game design in any way, b) affect your game in any way.

So yeah, um...no.

 

Actually it DOES affect overall game design.

[josan motierre]

I think it's a neat idea that would certainly work, but I also believe it'd serve only as a bandaid to cover up a larger wound.

 

As others have said, I think there are better solutions. Simply designing fights to be more challenging and require the use of potions is a better fix. The trouble often is that you are given many potions and you don't need them, and therefore they are never used and just accumulate.

 

I don't like the whole potion system anyway. By the sounds of things the devs are already thinking of something better than it.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

This is a very intriguing concept. I am a chronic and unrehabilitated potion hoarder. Unless I believe that I will lose the fight, or that a character might die should I not quaff like a frat-boy, I almost never touch them. I possess this bizarre compulsion where I'll have a near death character in the midst of a fearsome battle and I'll think, "Eh...I'll save this potion for when I really need it." It's a problem.

 

Ironman modes greatly assage my affliction, though I do still tend to use them only conservatively. What contributes to this problem, is that I generally consider most other actions to be a superior choice than to use a potion and risk being struck. During engagements, healing potions do not improve your character's situtation, but merely prolong it. I almost always choose to move the character away, use a spell to turn them invisible or grant similar concealment, while having other character interfere with the attackers.

 

Ultimately, it's a mixture of tactical preference and pathalogical habit. No mechanic is likely to change this behavior. Increasing their accessibilty would likely make the game trivial, and increasing their potency in combat would likely only feed my hoarding pathos. While I was immediately receptive to the idea of expiration dates, I agree with others that is is a sub-optimal solution.

[Osvir]

Why I think Expiring Potions sounds [Good]...

Alchemy

First of all, it kind of speaks for itself. If a Potion becomes "Rotten" after 10 Days (give or take), then it would make sense if you could use the "Rotten" Potion in different uses. Maybe coat your blade with it, cause a Disease on the enemy, slip down some of it down your enemy's jug of wine during a very intense diplomatic conference, mix it with a "Good" Potion and create a beneficial Potion etc. etc.

It's complex though, because depending on how many Potions are in the game, it might be A LOT to take into consideration. But it could also simplify Potion "Crafting" a.k.a. Alchemy:

[Fresh] Potion Component
[Good] Potion Component
[Average] Potion Component
[sour] Potion Component
[bitter] Potion Component
[Rotten] Potion Component

I just pulled down the Potion list to 6 Components instead of... what... 10's & 100's? (Potion of Strength, Potion of Endurance, Potion of Speed, Potion of Heroism). It does make potions less individual and unique though and the list of Potions being able to create becomes slimmer. I just think that I might have something here that makes it easier to work with in "Crafting" terms. There could be some 2 unique traits to special potions or to each tier.

Main Component: [sour] "A Sour Stamina Potion, said to enrich any who engulfs it with fatigue. Sipping won't do!"
Sub-Component: [sweet] "A tone or a hint of sweetness might touch the drinkers lips before tasting the main component"

Journal Notes

With Expiry dates comes a further implication:
- How long does my Potions last? Will the game note it for me for every single potion or would there be a lot of potions that doesn't have it in their description? Could I add it in-game in-journal or in-description? That would be awesome.

I want to go into ITEM descriptions and add my own "Lore" so to speak. But that's for another thread. Back to Potions: So I've got a Potion in my inventory for X amount of Days, when it goes bad, I can "write it in". As I understand it I remember there being some talk about a "Codex" of everything you find. You find a book, goes to a large Codex (Gone is the days with Books in your inventory, I believe).

Because when a [Good] Potion goes [sour], the Potion is no longer [Good], then I could go to the Journal entry of the [Good] and write how many days it took for it to Expire. This I would enjoy a lot I believe, but it also a lot of "High-Level Roleplay" I suppose. Requires a lot of attention from the Player.

Community Crafting

I think it speaks for itself:

"When does the Potion go bad?"
"Can you create a special Potion if you wait 3 out of 10 days and it is still [Good]?" ([Good] goes [sour] in 10 days so... would 1 out of 10 Days give the [Good] a trait? Would 2 out of 10 Days give [Good] a different trait? etc. etc. Maybe more like 4/12 Days gives 1 Trait, 8/12 Days gives 2nd Trait, 12/12 Days = [Good] into [Average])

Lots of talk, lots of discussion, lots of "Community Alchemy" could spawn out of it with no certainty. But that goes for any Crafting system regardless.

Unl. Stash, Pack/Inventory & Drops

In the Unlimited Stash the Potions could be in some sort of "Stasis" (I.E. They don't go "bad") but as soon as you pick them up into your inventory they begin to "tick". Same would go for Drops obviously, it would be waaaaay too complex if enemies were carrying Potions that were slowly degenerating as time went on (But hey, if it would be possible to create some sort of "Global Timer" I say thumbs up, cus I'd like to see some dynamic events taking place that I can encounter and/or even Miss and encounter on perhaps a 2nd Playthrough *gasp!*). 

Why I think it could go [Rotten]...

Potions handled this way could be complex for the Developers to create. That's it really. Of course, I wouldn't know, but Obsidian has way more experience with Crafting systems than I have and they might even have a better system in mind. But I just thought of throwing this out there for inspiration or whatever, in some sort of simplistic manner.

The system I propose could also make Potions too much work for the Player, and it becomes a hoard mode regardless.

Potion Belt

I remember Josh saying something about a "Potion Belt" that each Character would have, a sort of limited "How many can you carry?" slots in your inventory. So hoarding Potions into your Stash sounds feasible, but the one you "Equip" sounds like they will have more of an Active usage, I.E: You Equip Potions to prepare for what's ahead, not for Hoarding. If the Player puts them on His/Her character = Probable because He/She is going to use them. Otherwise they'll hang around in the Unl. Stash. 

I'd like to see what could be done with Expiring Potions without causing the Player to loose too much "Control" over it as well. Having Potions go "Bad" when I really wanted to use them for an upcoming boss won't help at all, unless the "Bad" Potion can be used in some sort of utilitarian way.

Also want to throw attention to This Post instead of doing a "Copy+Paste". It's from Infinitron's thread "Ideas for creating items with negative attributes that people will actually use?"

[Kjaamor]

Simple as it sounds in the title: potions have expiration dates. This let's players rest whenever they want without giving them many plot/story penalties ("you're too late hero, we've killed everyone in town") but instead apply direct combat penalties. As an added bonus, I can only guess that players would be much less likely to hoard potions, something they can often ease into. If somebody wanted to get very creative, certain expired potions could become acids, poisons, alchemic ingredients, bombs,  or even entirely different potions. Thoughts?

 

1. Personally, those plot/story penalties are not a bad thing. Its been a small point of frustration for me that I am apparently alone in the fanbase in thinking this. The water chip and the Modoc quest are two of my favourite quests in any rpg because they are timed and it forces me to get my act together (well, not so much the water chip, which I find astonishing when people tell me they failed to beat the timer).

 

b) Even if you don't like those penalties, surely affecting the combat system is a WORSE method of managing such issues. Half of players don't use potions to any meaningful degree anyway, if you are dependent upon them it runs the risk of turning a dungeon into a deathtrap should they expire, and the system as a whole is surely more punishing to enjoyment than quest results changing because you took 2 years to go and get a bandage for someone.

 

iii: Rest spam is already being dealt with by the cooldown system.

 

4. Potion hoarding is, as it always has been in western rpgs, dealt with by the limited inventory system.

[moridin84]

Way I figure it, on easy mode you should have lots of potions but on hard mode you should be using them. Cause it's hard. 

 

I'm sure potions will have cool downs so it doesn't matter if you have 2,000 or 20 potions in a hard boss fight, you can only use 10. 

 

To be honest, I'm not sure I understand what the problem with hoarding potions is.

[Lephys]

At what Mr. Magniloquent said:

 

A) What if potions weren't actually potions? As in, the item functions "the same way," but it's not an ingestable bottle of liquid? What if they're something that, in the lore, can be used instantly, without disadvantage (time lost from use)?

 

B) What if they provided unique-yet-temporary effects? Look at the utility of a potion of invisibility versus a potion of improved defense. The potion of invisibility allows you to do something you couldn't previously do: move across the battlefield unseen, and/or fully escape your current attacker. Whereas, the potion of improved defense merely alters the numbers behind an existing ability: defense. Most potions just change some numbers in existing factors, rather than introducing new factors. What if they introduced new factors? Potion of Force: for 10 seconds, all your physical attacks produce knockback. You could pop that potion when near a cliff or environmental hazard, or to knock people into some conveniently-placed traps. Or knock an enemy into a smaller group of other enemies, to then strike at all of them with an AOE attack. Or for something like Barkskin, instead of gaining defense/armor (or, at least, instead of JUST that), what if melee bladed weapon attacks produced a disarm when they struck you (got stuck in your wooden skin)? Things of that nature.

[rjshae]

While not a fan of the idea of newly-made potions expiring, I do think that over lengthy periods of time a potion can and should degrade to the point of ineffectiveness. Finding a few old, crusty bottles of mysterious caked powders in among the ruins would add to the level of verisimilitude. Taking those containers to a skilled alchemist may allow for re-discovery of an ancient formulae.

[Inarius]

Honestly that would drastically reduce my desire to use potions, and as it is i rarely use them. If they're going to expire well id just sell them off the moment I get to town now and use the gold towards something that wont expire on me down the road. I do seem to remember someone mentioning that potions are going to have their own equipment slot, and that you can only use potions from there during combat. To me that's a really reasonable restriction. You're not going to have the time rummage through your backpacks during a fight to find the potions you want. It also would probably make me use potions with a bit more frequency since I wouldn't be able to use more than a few each fight anyway.

[Sezneg]

I sympathise with your intent. But I agree with the other responders that this would be annoying.

 

I've been doing a FO:NV playthrough without hoarding, and enjoying it a lot more than normal. I got the idea because at the end of my last playthrough I worked out I had barely touched any of the caches I'd built up so painstakingly.

 

If you want to stop the old squirrels then there are better ways than targeting a specific item. I'd be interested in what your thoughts on that would be.

 

I find carry weight restriction the best and only thing that can prevent hoarding.  For PE, the notion that only a portion of your inventory will be accessible during combat is a way to allow for this, while also letting us indulge in our "pick up all the things" RPG habbits.

 

A lot will depend on what the math on the stash overload penalties end up being, but I applaud the notion that we don't have to fully give up our packrat tendencies to enjoy the tactical depth that combat consumable scarcity provides.

[Osvir]

Honestly that would drastically reduce my desire to use potions, and as it is i rarely use them. If they're going to expire well id just sell them off the moment I get to town now and use the gold towards something that wont expire on me down the road. I do seem to remember someone mentioning that potions are going to have their own equipment slot, and that you can only use potions from there during combat. To me that's a really reasonable restriction. You're not going to have the time rummage through your backpacks during a fight to find the potions you want. It also would probably make me use potions with a bit more frequency since I wouldn't be able to use more than a few each fight anyway.

 

I'm the same. Which is why I think expiring potions is a good solution to give potions more use, otherwise they might end up stacking up in my inventory.

 

Potential usage, that I can see with it:

A) Use a Potion before it Expires (Should be able to walk through maybe a 2 to 3 story dungeon without a potion expiring)

B) Potion Expires = Polarized Effect ([Heal Stamina] becomes [Damage Stamina])

C) Potion Expires = Use as a component to create a new potion that might have "Positive" effect or "Negative" effect

D) Potion Expires = Use Alchemy to reverse effects (~Make 2 [Damage Stamina] into 1 [Heal Stamina] Potion)

E) Stashed Potions should never Expire

F) Potions, if Expiring Potions is in, should be a degenerating effect. It shouldn't go from [Fresh] to [Rotten] straight away, but maybe from

 

[Fresh] (100% Effect)

into

[Good] (90% Effect) 

 

Over a longer period of time. Check my other large post on something that could work well imo. Or for inspirational material. Maybe be able to combine components to make a [Fresh] Potion last longer, or by combining 2 [Good] Potions you create a [Fresh] Potion.

 

All those potions that I hoard in the IE games suddenly has more use. That is if Expiring Potions is something Obsidian would want in their Crafting system.

 

BUT! I have never really played any of the IE games on the hardest hardest difficulty, saving it for Project Eternity and from what other people say about the IE games is that potions become more important in harder difficulties. I expect that I will use Potions more frequently when I play PE, because I intend to consider their usage much more than I have previously.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Osvir

[kgambit]

 

[Fresh] (100% Effect)

into

[Good] (90% Effect) 

 

 

How do you apply 90% of a +1 modifier?  If you start allowing fractional effects, you create the following issues:

 

1) you have to track the fractional potency of each and every potion that is brewed, bought or dropped as loot

2) potions will rarely stack since each one will have a different "use by" date (only the ones that you craft in a given crafting session might stack)

3) if potion effectiveness is sensitive within the time frame of the game, you can forget about adding  potions as loot in certain settings such as ancient crypts or dungeons

4) what happens at 50% potency?  do you round the potion effect down? If so that makes a +1 potion modifier worthless when the potion hits 50% efficiency and it cuts the life of the potion in half

 

If Josh's earlier comments hold then potion usage is already controlled via the inventory and doesn't need any further constraints.

 

I've never seen one reasonable explanation as to why potion hoarding is even an issue worth considering. 

Edited September 12, 2013 by kgambit

[Osvir]

 

 

[Fresh] (100% Effect)

into

[Good] (90% Effect) 

 

 

How do you apply 90% of a +1 modifier?  If you start allowing fractional effects, you create the following issues:

 

1) you have to track the fractional potency of each and every potion that is brewed, bought or dropped as loot

2) potions will rarely stack since each one will have a different "use by" date (only the ones that you craft in a given crafting session might stack)

3) if potion effectiveness is sensitive within the time frame of the game, you can forget about adding  potions as loot in certain settings such as ancient crypts or dungeons

4) what happens at 50% potency?  do you round the potion effect down? If so that makes a +1 potion modifier worthless when the potion hits 50% efficiency and it cuts the life of the potion in half

 

If Josh's earlier comments hold then potion usage is already controlled via the inventory and doesn't need any further constraints.

 

I've never seen one reasonable explanation as to why potion hoarding is even an issue worth considering. 

You bring up valid points and thus I reform my idea and direct attention at Crafting methods instead:

 

[Fresh] Crafting = 100% Success Rate

[Good] Crafting = 90% Success Rate, 10% that the result will turn into something else

[Regular] Crafting = 80% Success Rate, etc. etc.

 

Modifiers+the now old idea

Also, a +1 Strength Modifier, for instance, might give you +10 Damage (probably less, but it's easier to work with % with 10 rather than, say, 5). Then the effect would be +9 for a [Good] Potion. Down at 50% it'd be +5 Damage etc. etc. Or +1 Strength gives the Player +20 Carrying Capacity for a duration of time (not getting encumbered, being able wield a Sword or Armor for the duration of a fight), then at 90% it'd be +18 Capacity etc. etc.

 

Anyways, I don't know how much you follow the forums: My intention when I'm posting is to provide with inspiration, Obsidian might see this and think "That's an awful idea!! But it gives me another one...". I'm brainstorming a lot

 

Hoarding

I think one of the most profound issues with hoarding is the element that... you've got tons of potions in the game and they are probably intended to be used. But many people like myself is almost never using them because they aren't mechanically "needed". How do you make it more "useful"? In the IE games, potions feel more or less like an "Overkill" option. You don't need them to take down your enemies. Kind of like the "Haste" spell, Potions allows you to take down your enemies faster. And when you get to the point where you really need potions, you've got 10 of each kind that exists and you still don't really need them.

 

A lesser issue is the gold issue. Hoard tons of potions and then sell them for good gold (Some potions do sell for quite the sum of gold in the IE games. So potions instantly becomes "treasure" rather than serve the utilitarian purpose it feels they are supposed to fill).

 

I personally want more practical, tactical and strategical use out of the potions. Though, I haven't played the IE games at the hardest hardest difficulty, and I've read from some people that have played on that difficulty (on these forums) that potions instantly become more important. So maybe there really isn't an issue, because I'm only speaking out of Core Rules experience where I felt the Potions where optional and not very important to defeat anything, but more or less important for gold income.

 

Finally Stacking:

 

Yep, that makes sense (what you are saying). Didn't think about that one, can't think of a good way to solve that. One way would be too keep the stacks, but when you are hovering the mouse pointer (and/or right-clicking it) over it you could get a small box list of the quality of the potions in the stack next to the pointer, but this would only work if potions stacks cap at max 5 (or else it'd get too cluttered I imagine). Perhaps not an optimal solution but... like I said earlier... I'm just brainstorming

Edited September 12, 2013 by Osvir

[kgambit]

 

 Anyways, I don't know how much you follow the forums: My intention when I'm posting is to provide with inspiration, Obsidian might see this and think "That's an awful idea!! But it gives me another one...". I'm brainstorming a lot

 

Crafting methods instead:

 

[Fresh] Crafting = 100% Success Rate

[Good] Crafting = 90% Success Rate, 10% that the result will turn into something else

[Regular] Crafting = 80% Success Rate, etc. etc.

 

 

Hoarding

I think one of the most profound issues with hoarding is the element that... you've got tons of potions in the game and they are probably intended to be used. But many people like myself is almost never using them because they aren't mechanically "needed". How do you make it more "useful"? In the IE games, potions feel more or less like an "Overkill" option. You don't need them to take down your enemies. Kind of like the "Haste" spell, Potions allows you to take down your enemies faster. And when you get to the point where you really need potions, you've got 10 of each kind that exists and you still don't really need them.

 

A lesser issue is the gold issue. Hoard tons of potions and then sell them for good gold (Some potions do sell for quite the sum of gold in the IE games. So potions instantly becomes "treasure" rather than serve the utilitarian purpose it feels they are supposed to fill).

 

I personally want more practical, tactical and strategical use out of the potions. Though, I haven't played the IE games at the hardest hardest difficulty, and I've read from some people that have played on that difficulty (on these forums) that potions instantly become more important. So maybe there really isn't an issue, because I'm only speaking out of Core Rules experience where I felt the Potions where optional and not very important to defeat anything, but more or less important for gold income.

 

 

I follow them fairly often.  I just don't always reply to posts.   

 

(I rearranged your text a bit to respond)

 

Crafting:

 

I'm not sure exactly what the "fresh" reference is meant to infer but I can guess that it's either a reference to ingredient freshness  or a variable chance of failure during the crafting process.  And in my opinion a Variable success for crafting is a non-starter.  Nothing will foster "save, fail and reload" gameplay faster than a variable chance of crafting failure.  Ingredient freshness simply opens the same can of worms relatively to potency and stacking that variable potion expiration did and you've compounded the problem by extending it to two sets of items (potions and ingredients). 

 

Hoarding

 

Making potions more useful is something that Josh has said they were shooting for.  I don't remember the exact quote but it was something along the lines of not needing potions for most of the combat but needing them during the tougher fights.  I know that's kind of vague but I think I understood where he was headed for.  People will use potions to varying degrees based on their experience level, the difficulty setting and the degree of challenge offered at various points by the game.   There will also be an overprint of preserving potions as tactical or strategic resources to be used when they are most needed.  All of that actually encourages hoarding to some degree.   

 

 

I've seen one post before where an argument was offered against hoarding and potion use based on stomach capacity. Actually, bladder capacity would have been a better choice.     Using the 1 oz Witcher vials as a standard (which I heartily endorse by the way), instead of the Icewind Dale Big Gulps, would still have allowed the user to imbibe 20 to 27 1 oz potions. 

[anubite]

If a player is hoarding potions...

(1) the game is too easy

(2) potions are not impactful

(3) potions are dropping too abundantly

(4) potions are not valuable (to sell)

(5) potions are too rare (and too expensive)

 

One or more of these conditions is being met.

 

Making potions expire will not fix anyof the underlying issues here.

 

Although Path of Exile's potion system probably doesn't have a place in PE, it's proof there are plenty of potential potiion mechanics thave have gone unexplored and can be wonderfully executed. Cooldowns or expiration sound like bad, hamfisted ways to solve a difficult problem.

Edited September 12, 2013 by anubite

[Lephys]

^

 

6) The player is irrationally hoarding potions, just because, despite reasons 1-5 being absent from the game's design.

 

I agree with your post, though, with the exception of cooldowns. I've always thought the Diablo "as long as you can click on heal potions faster than the enemy can do damage to you, you'll be immortal" approach was blatantly, blatantly ridiculous. If you're expected to be able to live for the duration of your health bar + 70-potion-refills worth of health, why not just have a giant health bar? At some point, you're still limited by the amount of total damage you can take before you die. Why convolute it into a quick-time event of healing? It's much more manageable if you can only replenish life so often, and/or so much in a given duration.

 

Not that I think any game that's ever utilized potion cooldowns is the pinnacle of game design, or anything.

[TrashMan]

Players hoard potions because they are saving them for "hard fights" and don't want to use them.

 

The problem is, since they can always re-load and try the fight again untill the dice roll i ntheir favor, at no point do they really NEED those potions, hence they end up never using them.

 

Potions expiring if not used would - in theory - have hte effect of people using them more often, out of sheer practicality. The same instinct that drives the hoarding mentaltiy and gambling, also drives this.

[anubite]

^

 

6) The player is irrationally hoarding potions, just because, despite reasons 1-5 being absent from the game's design.

 

I agree with your post, though, with the exception of cooldowns. I've always thought the Diablo "as long as you can click on heal potions faster than the enemy can do damage to you, you'll be immortal" approach was blatantly, blatantly ridiculous. If you're expected to be able to live for the duration of your health bar + 70-potion-refills worth of health, why not just have a giant health bar? At some point, you're still limited by the amount of total damage you can take before you die. Why convolute it into a quick-time event of healing? It's much more manageable if you can only replenish life so often, and/or so much in a given duration.

 

Not that I think any game that's ever utilized potion cooldowns is the pinnacle of game design, or anything.

Cooldowns can manage it but they tend to just break the flow of gameplay. As I suggested, Path of Exile's mechanics work such that you can run out of potions if you just spam them but there are no cooldowns on them.

[TrashMan]

Personally, I wouldn't allow use of potions during a battle.

 

Drink before, drink after...but potion chugging while a guy is hitting you with a sword is just silly.

[anubite]

Personally, I wouldn't allow use of potions during a battle.

 

Drink before, drink after...but potion chugging while a guy is hitting you with a sword is just silly.

Fantasy is silly. Why should we be afraid of old men swinging shiny sticks wearing pointy hats?

 

If potions are designed right, they can be an impactful in-battle strategic decision. In BG they are pretty much a, "Oh, I can't heal this person fast enough, so he will drink a potion this round." And since that character isn't acting now, chances are, they're just going to keep chugging potions. Thankfully, potions were pretty abundant after a point.

 

Arbitrary restrictions like, "You can't do this in battle, you can't do this until that number thing ticks down to zero" are band-aid, "I don't know how to fix this" kind of solutions. If potions are designed right and populated in the world in a sensible manner there's nothing wrong with them, they're just another tool for solving complicated battle situations.

[Lephys]

Personally, I wouldn't allow use of potions during a battle.

 

Drink before, drink after...but potion chugging while a guy is hitting you with a sword is just silly.

It's almost like a trope that everyone just liked. "OBVIOUSLY, magical effects come in ingestible liquid form! What OTHER form would they come in?!"

 

Sure, it's nostalgic and fun, but, it's just so easy to come up with something else. I mean, how about a charm bracelet (just off the top of my head)? You activate a little gemstone-esque charm with a word, and it evanesces into its magical energy form, doing what it does to you. Or, heck... like materia in FF7. You socket things into your weapon hilt, armor, etc., and tap into it when you need to. You could make them consumable (figuratively) instead of re-usable. Boom. Non-potion consumables. Not to mention, how many actions in combat would result in the crushing of your fragile, glass-bottled potions. "Where are you keeping those 15 healing potions that they didn't just get crushed when that Ogre hurled you into that tree?!"

 

Of course, I still wouldn't be big on having a bracelet with 700 charms on it, and just using them one after another after another. I just... I don't think combat needs to even support THAT much replenishment in a single battle. And, as we've discussed in many a potion thread, I think there can be a good bit more tactics involved in a "potion" (consumable) system than just "if you use this, you get a boost, and it's different from other things because its temporary." There's usually not much making a potion anything different from either a bottled healing spell, or a bottled buff. "Don't want to actually use the class that generates this effect? JUST PAY MONEY! 8D!"

 

Annnnywho... I digress.

[kgambit]

 

Personally, I wouldn't allow use of potions during a battle.

 

Drink before, drink after...but potion chugging while a guy is hitting you with a sword is just silly.

It's almost like a trope that everyone just liked. "OBVIOUSLY, magical effects come in ingestible liquid form! What OTHER form would they come in?!"

 

 

Well the term potion is kind of self-descriptive isn't it? 

 

I find the prohibition against potion use in combat to be artificial; so much so that it appears that it's simply been offered as a punitive restriction.  For example, why would a  mage at the rear of a combat formation be prohibited from chugging a mana potion if needed?   Or an archer using ranged attacks?  Or why is it unreasonable for a fighter to say "I'm need a boost, and I'm taking the risk that my opponent gets a free swing"?  I don't see anything "silly" about those options in the least.  

[anubite]

I do agree that if magic allows for 'anything' to exist potentially, potions may not be the logical 'next-step' in such a world.

[kgambit]

I do agree that if magic allows for 'anything' to exist potentially, potions may not be the logical 'next-step' in such a world.

 

fair enough, the potion speaks for itself line didn't mean to imply that the concept of a temporary boost to a stat, talent or skill was absolutely tied to a liquid in a vial, or any consumable - it could be almost anything

[Lephys]

Well the term potion is kind of self-descriptive isn't it? 

 

I find the prohibition against potion use in combat to be artificial; so much so that it appears that it's simply been offered as a punitive restriction.  For example, why would a  mage at the rear of a combat formation be prohibited from chugging a mana potion if needed?   Or an archer using ranged attacks?  Or why is it unreasonable for a fighter to say "I'm need a boost, and I'm taking the risk that my opponent gets a free swing"?  I don't see anything "silly" about those options in the least.

I agree that it shouldn't be purely impossible for anyone under any circumstances to down a potion in the midst of combat, but I will say that it's all-but impossible for, say, the Warrior who's currently engaged in melee combat with an opponent to simply stop what he's doing, pull out a potion, and drink it. He'd have to either drop his sword/weapon, or sheathe it, then retrieve the potion using his hand, uncork it or whatever, then pour it into his mouth and swallow, THEN re-wield his weapon. Not without getting hit, but without the enemy simply going "Umm... no," and slapping the crap out of your glass potion bottle with his weapon, or simply crushing it against your body by ramming into you with his shoulder or shield.

 

Pulling out a fragile item and ingesting it in the middle of combat is pretty highly infeasible. Sure, in the abstraction of combat actions in an RPG, it's not that crazy to suspend disbelief for. It's not that big of a deal. But then, we've been sort of arbitrarily using potions as THE consumable magic item for so long now. Why NOT explore other things that might work better?

 

And, as for the restrictions, it's just sort of "why make this a drinkable liquid in a fragile glass bottle that requires so much infeasible effort to effectively use mid-combat, then allow it to be freely used mid-combat?" That, plus the fact that it's usually an almost-instantaneous thing, so, even from a functionality/gameplay standpoint, the lore of it being a drinkable liquid doesn't really do anything to support the fact that you just magically ingest it in a half-a-second while swinging a sword about, and you don't get hit any WORSE while taking the time to drink it and completely ignore your current melee engagement. It's deprived of even being a strategic decision.

 

As was mentioned, it pretty much becomes "Oh, well, I can't heal that person in time, but luckily I bought a little consumable version of that healing spell that even my non-healer -- the character who needs healing -- can use on himself."

 

It's just pretty rudimentary as a system goes, is all. The "how hard is it to drink that while fighting?" is just something worth considering, among other things.