NWN2 influences: what to take and what to leave

[Micamo]

(Thank you for playing Baldurs Gate 1!! $50 dollars well spent!)

"Hey, I lost my <MAGIC ITEM> while I was strolling through the <WILDERNESS AREA> because it was stolen by <MONSTER>. I'll give you a <REWARD> for killing the monster returning it."

 

I was in some tavern where there's a guy who gives you the usual cookie cutter slay-monster-return-item quest, except after he gives it to you he steals some gold out of your pocket. I talk to him again thinking there's some dialogue option to confront him about what he just stole from you, right? Nope, he just steals some more.

 

So I was all "You little bitch!" and straight-up murdered him right there in the middle of the tavern. Nobody seemed to care. I get my gold back off his corpse and decide to open my journal.

 

"I met a little thief today who keeps stealing my gold! I don't want to cause a scene so it looks like getting his boots is the best way to get my money back."

 

 

That's when I said to myself "You know what? No. I can think of a million ways I can better spend my time than this." I put it down and never picked it back up, and the only reason I maybe want to someday is because it's a classic RPG, and for that reason alone I want to be able to say I'd played it. (Basically, the same reason I powered through NWN2's Act 3.)

Edited May 31, 2013 by Micamo

[Malekith]

Right. When an RPG boasts 60 hours content, and players report that they managed to beat the game in its first chapter after playing for 3 hours, then that game will be seen as a huge dud. Broken.

 

Seriously, imagine if you and Gorion were able to kill Serevok in BG1's prologue via a couple of lucky rolls of the dice. What kind of Gaming experience would that have been? I'll tell you. None at all. And the devs would have been held accountable for releasing a (literally) BROKEN game.

 

But that's what you're asking for here: a Game you can break early, for your own ego's sake. Story be damned.

You take it to the extreem. I agree with you, but Micamo has also good points. If the game gives me a power, it has to take it into acount. For me the gold standard in dialogues would be PS:T with the ability to use spells through dialogue like Bloodlines.(charm,dominate, etc.) I still rage when i remember Blood Magic in DA:O. You spent the whole game telling me how dangerous Blood Magic is because it can dominate others. And when i become a blood mage, the final ability is so useless i didn't even bother to take it. WTF??? The game would be infinitely better if i could use the final power to dominate others through dialoge. It would convey that blood magic is dangerous and would have made the player feel powerfull, and that he is doing something wrong. For plot critical dialogues you could have one or two mages present so you couldn't use the power in front of them. Easy.

I have high hopes for P:E. Healing,resurection and teleport are out, and good riddance as they are things that never make sense in a setting. When you haven't powers that lead to plot holes, you can use your powers in a logical manner without breaking the game.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Malekith

[Jarmo]

BTW. There was an NWN module called Hex Coda that allowed teleporting for the player and players team.

 

Blink back to headquarters or call in new teammates whenever you feel like it. Totally awesome, didn't break anything

(unless you call removing needless backtracking a valuable feature that gives more prescious duration to the adventure)

 

Teleporting in one way or another was done in many modules and games, but never as well. I still miss the feature.

Not only it didn't break the game, it gave new writing material for the author.

 

No. Generally I really dislike writers taking the easy way out. Villain teleporting away despite you casting dimensional anchor on him.

Because it was such a special teleport he's using. He and every damn teleporting enemy in the world. Special my butt.

 

And yeah. If Sarevok has 95% of killing you with every blow while you have 95% chance of missing, and you need to land about 20 hits in a row,

while he needs to miss 60 times in a row. Then yeah, give a game over and happily ever after for the player pulling the one in a billion.

Pretty sure the player succeeding in that would be damn satisfied (and would then reload and do the game as intended). 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

@Thread Title: IMO

 

OC: Crossroad Keep, an area like Amon's Haven, and a well-developed trial(but if there is a "Trial By Combat" option, let us know beforehand).

 

MotB: Companion Depth, More Exotic Companions, Setting with Exotic Elements, No obvious final foe

 

SoZ: Exploration and Travel System

 

MoW: Nothing

 

1) You craft a story where the villian remains hidden and completely out of reach until the very end of the entire game.

If this was done similarly to Kreia, I would not mind a bit.

[Archmage Silver]

Take George Ziets and run.

[Iron_JG]

I think the lesson of NWN2's OC is, more or less, to keep your narrative and resources FOCUSED. The OC had some good parts, and some good characters. But there was a lot of flotsam that got in the way. Many party members were redundant, one-dimensional and stereotypical. It was like a checklist of Forgotten Realms tropes and settings (indeed, the first NWN had more interesting henchmen, which was kind of sad really, considering how limited they were). This strained the narrative and required railroading player choice far too often. Something I despise in any game is being forced to use or recruit a certain party member. I seem to recall being frustrated as hell when I had to kick out Khelgar for Casavir, for instance. The game aimed for epic adventure with a great ensemble, and missed the mark hard. Its horrible attempt at a romance -- Elanee the druid stalker -- was particularly jarring. So I think the lesson from NWN 2 is a simple one: quality over quantity. A few well developed characters and settings are always better than a lot of half-realized ideas.

 

MotB learned this lesson well, offering a few creative, engaging and surprising characters that told a meaningful, moving story. Other than story and plot tips, I'd say the lesson of NWN 2 is, for the love of your-deity-here, have a good interface. Damn but that game was clunky.

 

Addendum: Someone mentioned DA2. I would say it was, overall, a much better game than NWN 2 OC, with interesting characters -- even the "stereotypical" ones like Isabela were still well done, IMO (you had to at least like her banter with Aveline). And, while the ending crapped out, the Arishok was still an excellent, somewhat tragic villain. 

[exodiark]

I think Obsidian played it safe in NWN2 OC, you know, after the flak they get in KOTOR 2 for being too ambitious and too deconstructive. So for OC they make a conservative DnD story with conservative characters, with a bit of Obsidian twist.
Of course, for a full Obsidian taste, there's always Mask of the Betrayer.

However, there are several points Obsidian can use for PE:

- Humor.
I mean, showing your d*ck to a misogynistic demon to prove your manhood? That's just plain hilarious =))
Khelgar's defense from being accused racist is just too funny as well.
 

- The way Obsidian handle evil characters, like Bishop and Jerro.
Bishop is 100% pure heartless psycho, yet can still amuse audience because of his raw wisdom which he learned from Mother Nature (he's a ranger after all). His tendency to act as a Devil's Advocate is refreshing and he kinda deconstructs the notion of "Nature is good," because it's not, Mother Nature has always been the alpha b*tch from before the dawn of mankind. Ask the dinosaurs.

Jerro, while evil and selfish, still listen to reason. He doesn't do evil for evil sake, but because he thinks everything will be worse if he doesn't act. The moment he killed Shandra and the moment you make him realize that he's King of Shadows personified, that's just pure high point.

- Crossroad Keep Management
It's a nice break from all the fightings.
Gathering liutenants, managing budgets, building the keep, training the greycloaks are very nice.

- The Trial
Taking account all your past deeds to confront your enemy in Atris-style debate? Yes please )
Wish it had different outcomes though, maybe PE will invoke this at the end of the game.

=====================================================================

Mask of the Betrayer

- Genuinely great and intellectual interactive story.
I'm not easily impressed with what people call "great story" in video games, but I do have a soft spot for Obsidian, because their stories are usually coherent and always multi-faceted. You can see both sides of coins in MOTB AND you can decide who to agree with.

Unlike the Geth one-sided propaganda, or the fact that religious Comstock is fated to always become a maniac in every timeline, MOTB story have healthy debates in it, like the Wall of the Faithless, should it be torn down? or not? If yes, then your choice could destroy the DnD universe because everything is run by faith. If not, well, know that an unknowing baby is technically an atheist, does it deserve to have its limbs twisted in the wall and live next to Bishop?

Amazingly, the Wall is not even the point of this epic story. It's love, and how far people will go to find it or protect it. and you can even deny it with the evil ending )

- Great Influence System.
Unlike NWN2 where I have to get Jerro's point in a hurry (because there's only a few occasions to get Jerro's approval), MOTB gives you a lot of chance to gain companion's approval and replace lost influence points from past interactions.

Edited June 5, 2013 by exodiark

[PrimeJunta]

(Does this count as thread necro, or is two weeks plus not enough?)

 

@exodiark, yeah, I agree with a lot of that. NWN2 OC isn't as bad as its reputation IMO. It has redeeming qualities.

 

The writing is actually pretty good on the "micro" level -- as in, the dialog flows nicely, every character has his or her own voice, and so on. The combat encounters are varied and even interesting most of the time (not counting the awful, awful endgame). There's plenty of variety in locations. They've done a great job working around the weaknesses of D&D 3.5, so you can actually make a big range of viable and powerful character concepts. The character-building is in fact the best single thing about it IMO.

 

But the bad. Yeah.

 

The writing at the "macro" level. Just terrible. Relies on really threadbare tropes, from the whole "ancient evil" thing to fridging not one but two women. The awful romances. The characters who really had no personality beyond class + race + alignment + quirk. Zhaeve, the embarrassingly bad Torment fanfic. The way the game saddles you with some characters whether you want them or not. The endgame. The horrible, horrible endgame.

 

On this playthrough, for example, my character would not have asked any of her companions along for the endgame unless they volunteered and she was really sure they wanted to do it. That means Ammon Jerro, Zhaeve, Khelgar (probably), Casavir, Elanee (probably), Grobnar (possibly), but certainly neither Neeshka nor Qara -- I hadn't even adventured with Qara one single time except for that one plot-related excursion. That whole part made no sense. Nor stuff like a simple farm girl suddenly blossoming into a level 16 fighter. I mean, really?

 

But really. Whoever approved that endgame needs a spanking. It was bad. Then again maybe it's an Obsidian thing, as the KOTOR 2 endgame was just as bad if not worse. (The MotB one was kind of OK though so maybe they're learning.)

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I've actually re-installed NWN2 and intend to replay it. Should I go ahead and post my thoughts here?

[PrimeJunta]

I'll read 'em if you do.

Edited June 23, 2013 by PrimeJunta

[Sannom]

But really. Whoever approved that endgame needs a spanking. It was bad. Then again maybe it's an Obsidian thing, as the KOTOR 2 endgame was just as bad if not worse. (The MotB one was kind of OK though so maybe they're learning.)

I thought the Dock and Orc Caves section of the game were far worse than the end-game, trudging through the same enemies with no variety and the impression that the developers were just adding padding to the whole thing.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'll read 'em if you do.

Challenge accepted.

 

Note: If any statement of mine concerning mechanics conflicts with your experience, it could be that I have the Spell Fixes, Kaedrin's PrC, Wild Mage, MageTome, and Tome of Battle installed. Playing on D&D Hardcore settings.

 

I'm rolling a male Aaismar Paladin named Distas. I'm going for a character who will generally choose Good over Law, but still tries to balance them both where he can.

 

Completed West Harbor Fair, Attack on West Harbor, and retrieved the Shard from the Lizardling ruins.

 

West Harbor Fair thoughts: A decent enough introduction to the mechanics and the game world, if a little cliche but frankly what tutorial isn't. Neither Bevil or Amie get much character development, and West Harbor isn't really fleshed out enough to leave a lasting impression. All in all, pretty bland but that is pretty standard for tutorials.

 

Attack on West Harbor thoughts: The combat was definitely a bit repetitive, but I enjoyed employing skills to recruit the militia. Would have liked to avoid the plot-induced death, if only to have a mage available earlier and avoid having to haul Sand or Qara around. Other than that, it was a pretty forgettable event.

 

Retrieving the Shard thoughts: A bit of a dungeon crawl that I really wish had been designed a bit better. The Stone God bit made me chuckle, but overall it was a bit too grindy and predictable for me.

 

Thought so far: Pretty bland to be honest, I would prefer combat encounters to be fewer but more challenging.

 

If you have any advice on anything, let me know.

[exodiark]

But the bad. Yeah.

 

The writing at the "macro" level. Just terrible. Relies on really threadbare tropes, from the whole "ancient evil" thing to fridging not one but two women. The awful romances. The characters who really had no personality beyond class + race + alignment + quirk. Zhaeve, the embarrassingly bad Torment fanfic. The way the game saddles you with some characters whether you want them or not. The endgame. The horrible, horrible endgame.

 

On this playthrough, for example, my character would not have asked any of her companions along for the endgame unless they volunteered and she was really sure they wanted to do it. That means Ammon Jerro, Zhaeve, Khelgar (probably), Casavir, Elanee (probably), Grobnar (possibly), but certainly neither Neeshka nor Qara -- I hadn't even adventured with Qara one single time except for that one plot-related excursion. That whole part made no sense. Nor stuff like a simple farm girl suddenly blossoming into a level 16 fighter. I mean, really?

 

But really. Whoever approved that endgame needs a spanking. It was bad. Then again maybe it's an Obsidian thing, as the KOTOR 2 endgame was just as bad if not worse. (The MotB one was kind of OK though so maybe they're learning.)

I thought the OC ending was quite brilliant in meta-contextual way. It really slapped you if you expect that the party will get out fighting ancient evil alive and well :D

 

> I mean, you ARE battling ancient evil, therefore you have to know that the ancient evil really, REALLY, wants to kill you.

> So when you killed the ancient evil, it unleashed his desperate attack and collapsed the entire chamber, getting most of your party killed in the process.

> Thus, the price of your heroism.

> If you don't want to die, then don't be a hero and join the King of Shadows.

 

This is inline with the rest of OC story, because it actually deconstructs heroism: There are no perfect heroes or heroic acts.

 

- The Guardian, being heroic, ends up corrupted and became the King of Shadows.

- Ammon Jerro, being heroic, battled the King of Shadows and pretty much became the monster he fought.

- Lorne had heroic quality (great strength, large build etc), but he failed to face his weaknesses and only become a hired muscle.

- Cormick, beat Lorne and won of the Harvest Festival, a legend in West Harbor, went to Neverwinter only to became a pencil-pusher.

- Shandra saved her friends, only to be murdered by her grandpa.

- Gith, whose silver sword you used, freed her people... and in her paranoia built a fascist race named Githyanki, the folks who hunted you.

 

and many more if you count your party members as heroes:

- Casavir did heroic things, like battling the orcs, but in actuality he did this to ran away from his crimes. (In deleted contents, he murdered his rival to win a woman's love. This was referred by Bishop in OC)

- Khelgar is heroic, but he is very shortsighted and prejudiced... at least until you finished his monk sidequest.

- Elaine's "devotion" is creepy.

- Bishop never tamed his bloodlust and chaotic desires, betrayed you, and got stuck in the wall.

 

MOTB continued this theme too:

- Akachi defied Myrkul and tried to destroy the wall, only to face fate worse than death and became Myrkul's pawn in the end.

- The Founder, who wanted to save Akachi after his sacrifice, gave you fantasy AIDS and is pretty much an insane woman addled by Akachi's love.

There are flaws in NWN2 OC, but the ending is actually brilliant and refreshing.

Edited June 24, 2013 by exodiark

[PrimeJunta]

@exodiark: The ending. No. Just... no.

 

(I'm not putting in "Spoiler" tags as I assume anyone reading this is familiar with NWN2 anyway. If you're not, be warned.)

"Suddenly, the dungeon collapses" is not brilliant. It's unsatisfying and dumb. "You win! Haha neener neener, no you don't, you're all dead LOL!" If I did that as a DM, my players would walk out on me, deservedly.

Walking away to cheers and acclamations would have been clichéd, yes. But there would've been many ways to create a satisfying ending from the elements already introduced in the game, building on that 'deconstructing heroism' theme. Here's one which takes Ammon Jerro's fall to its logical ending.

Consider the Ritual of Purification. That was built up to be a really big deal. As in, the only reason you were saddled with Ammon Jerro was that he had the missing part of the Ritual, and supposedly you couldn't defeat the KoS without it. Yet actually you don't need the Ritual at all. I didn't use any of it once. (Aside: nor the silver sword, for that matter, other than the single instance when you have to use it. My Holy Keen Bastard Sword +5 was more effective. In fact the "artifact" weapons in the game were way too weak; there's no way you should be able to craft something even close in power to them.)

So, for example, why not do something like this:

Really make it so that using all five parts of the Ritual is the only way to defeat the KoS, but doing so will cause the hero and Ammon Jerro take his place as the new Guardian of Illefarn. Ammon Jerro would draw from the Shadow Weave (for obvious reasons). You would draw from the Weave (if Good), or the Shadow Weave (if Evil), or your choice of which Weave (if Neutral). Then you would have to fight the being that was Ammon Jerro. Once you defeat him, you have a choice.

If you drew from the Weave, you can choose to sever his connection to the Shadow Weave, which would destroy him and leave you as something very similar to what the Guardian was intended to be. Perhaps a Guardian of Neverwinter?

 

Or you can choose to merge with him to become something different, a composite being drawing both from the Shadow Weave and the Weave -- what that could be I leave up to the imagination. Perhaps an apotheosis of sorts? Becoming a minor god?

 

Or you can choose to sever both your connections to your respective Weaves. Narratively it would make most sense for this to be a suicidal move, but if you absolutely wanted to leave the option for a sequel open, you could bend this to make it the "OC" ending -- as the connection to the Weave fails, the dungeon collapses, leaving both you and Ammon Jerro trapped under the rubble, unconscious, merely human, but alive.

If you drew from the Shadow Weave, Ammon Jerro will be destroyed, and you will become a new and deadlier King of Shadow, with the general consequences of the official 'evil' ending.

Then have Zhaeve survive and narrate the ending from the perspective of someone residing in the Outer Planes.

All of these would have made more narrative and thematic sense, and provided closure.

(The other part of why the ending was bad was the dungeon design -- it was bland, boring, repetitive, and wading through crowds of monsters thrown at you and trying to wear you down through attrition is just tedious, not fun. To add insult to injury, there's the AI that doesn't obey orders and rushes off to attack when you just told them to read the True Names or hack away at the statues.)

[exodiark]

Oh I have no doubt the ending could be much better like you proposed. I do hope that Obsidian didn't pull this kind of trick in PE without planning MOTB-equivalent of expansion.

But remember that the game is Neverwinter Nights 2, it's a game designed to be conservative, cliched. And Collapsing Lair (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CollapsingLair) is part of classic RPG trope, that's why I said the ending we have is brilliant in meta-contextual way, not just "the ending is brilliant". The ending (and the game) criticize many RPG tropes when they also invoked it straight, which I found very amusing.

Instead of your party survived the collapse, most of them died because... well the lair simply caved in. Your epic heroism ended in a very abrupt, ordinary manner and there's a very, dry ironic humor in that.
Why you said? Well, because why not? KoS has every right to launch a desperate attack, and people got crushed by rocks IRL so why not your heroes? What makes your heroes special in the end when the whole game is about deconstructing heroism?

Contrary to most people, I found this kind of writing "deep" because it's simply self-aware. I like this kind of writing in PE, of course without the collapsing lair stunts :D

I think it's deliberate, since Ammon even joked about the collapse in the expansion pack.

Besides, it was established that the Ritual of Purification was meant to kill KoS, it's a failsafe. There's no mention that you must take KoS' place while performing the ritual, so any revelation to do so at the end of the game will simply look like total asspull. If Obsidian wanted to implement your ending, they must rewrite their story from the beginning

Edited June 24, 2013 by exodiark

[PrimeJunta]

@KaineParker, no advice at this point. Well, other than my disdain for the D&D paladin class; my recent playthrough was with a similar concept but mechanically stronger (Lawful Good Aasimar Cleric -> Doomguide.)

 

There will be more interesting combat encounters, but also many, many, many mobs to wade through. Which is why playing a pally (or a rogue or bard or fighter built for defense rather than offense for that matter) is kind of a chore. It's not that you won't be able to beat the encounters, it'll just take a while to hack your way through them. They will go much faster with a nice complement of area of effect spells, or even with a melee type built for max damage (Fighter -> Raging Berserker -> Weapon Master using a two-hander will mow through most anything really fast, and with the high Int you need for weapon master you'll have room for some skills that'll make things kind of interesting in other ways too; there's really only one encounter in the game that should give such a fighter some pause and that one's easy to beat with the magical abilities your followers will have). Of course you will have followers with some boss AoE spells later, but still.

[Rostere]

- Casavir did heroic things, like battling the orcs, but in actuality he did this to ran away from his crimes. (In deleted contents, he murdered his rival to win a woman's love. This was referred by Bishop in OC)

 

Haha, typical Obsidian. The parts crucial to understanding characters are cut from the game.

[BruceVC]

There have been some good suggestions in this thread. I would also like to add we need similar Romance\Sex themes added to PE that were in NWN2. I want to know the personal stories of my party members as I attempt to court the people I have an emotional connection with.

 

[bonarbill]

 

But really. Whoever approved that endgame needs a spanking. It was bad. Then again maybe it's an Obsidian thing, as the KOTOR 2 endgame was just as bad if not worse. (The MotB one was kind of OK though so maybe they're learning.)

I thought the Dock and Orc Caves section of the game were far worse than the end-game, trudging through the same enemies with no variety and the impression that the developers were just adding padding to the whole thing.

 

 

That's my problem with both NWN games (even though I like both of them).  There seems to be a huge number of trash enemies just for sake of making the game longer.

Edited June 24, 2013 by bonarbill

[PrimeJunta]

To be fair, you could say that about most if not all of the IE games, and NWN, as well. Even PS:T had tedious mobs from Curst on out.

[Micamo]

I thought the OC ending was quite brilliant in meta-contextual way. It really slapped you if you expect that the party will get out fighting ancient evil alive and well :D

 

> I mean, you ARE battling ancient evil, therefore you have to know that the ancient evil really, REALLY, wants to kill you.

> So when you killed the ancient evil, it unleashed his desperate attack and collapsed the entire chamber, getting most of your party killed in the process.

> Thus, the price of your heroism.

> If you don't want to die, then don't be a hero and join the King of Shadows.

 

This is inline with the rest of OC story, because it actually deconstructs heroism: There are no perfect heroes or heroic acts.

This is not what deconstruction actually means. Deconstruction isn't taking tropes and inverting, subverting, or averting them. Deconstructing a trope is when you use the work to make an argument that the trope shouldn't exist. A deconstruction of traditional RPG heroism would be making a game that says "If you even *want* a Big Damned Hero to show up and save the world, let alone be one, you're a deluded, horrible person and you should be ashamed."

 

The only thing the NWN2 OC has to say is "Look at me mommy, I can make a ar-pee-jee!"

[exodiark]

 

I thought the OC ending was quite brilliant in meta-contextual way. It really slapped you if you expect that the party will get out fighting ancient evil alive and well :D

 

> I mean, you ARE battling ancient evil, therefore you have to know that the ancient evil really, REALLY, wants to kill you.

> So when you killed the ancient evil, it unleashed his desperate attack and collapsed the entire chamber, getting most of your party killed in the process.

> Thus, the price of your heroism.

> If you don't want to die, then don't be a hero and join the King of Shadows.

 

This is inline with the rest of OC story, because it actually deconstructs heroism: There are no perfect heroes or heroic acts.

This is not what deconstruction actually means. Deconstruction isn't taking tropes and inverting, subverting, or averting them. Deconstructing a trope is when you use the work to make an argument that the trope shouldn't exist. A deconstruction of traditional RPG heroism would be making a game that says "If you even *want* a Big Damned Hero to show up and save the world, let alone be one, you're a deluded, horrible person and you should be ashamed."

 

The only thing the NWN2 OC has to say is "Look at me mommy, I can make a ar-pee-jee!"

 

Sorry, my fault, heroism is too broad.

Obsidian deconstructed Disney hero tropes in the OC (which are invoked in lots of classic RPGs or Tolkien-esque works), because those trope should not exist and because heroism and heroic acts have their heavy price.

All idealistic heroes in OC simply met their tragic (or mundane) end, or became cynical and broken.

Edited June 24, 2013 by exodiark

[exodiark]

 

- Casavir did heroic things, like battling the orcs, but in actuality he did this to ran away from his crimes. (In deleted contents, he murdered his rival to win a woman's love. This was referred by Bishop in OC)

 

Haha, typical Obsidian. The parts crucial to understanding characters are cut from the game.

 

Exactly, it's a shame to see a lot of Casavir content was cut.

But then again, everybody hates paladin so they cut his content first to save time hahahahhahahhahaha.

[Micamo]

Sorry, my fault, heroism is too broad.

Obsidian deconstructed Disney hero tropes in the OC (which are invoked in lots of classic RPGs or Tolkien-esque works), because those trope should not exist and because heroism and heroic acts have their heavy price.

All idealistic heroes in OC simply met their tragic (or mundane) end, or became cynical and broken.

This is subversion, not deconstruction.

 

Here's an example: Spec Ops The Line. Love it or hate it (personally I adored it) you can't deny that the game was trying to say "Call of Duty sucks, and this is why."

 

The game you're talking about is one that says "Baldur's Gate sucked, and this is why." You could make a damned good game about that, but NWN2 is not that game, nor is it trying to be. Mask of the Betrayer is almost "Forgotten Realms sucks, and this is why" but it never quite goes that far with critiquing the problems behind the setting's design.

[Malekith]

 

Sorry, my fault, heroism is too broad.

Obsidian deconstructed Disney hero tropes in the OC (which are invoked in lots of classic RPGs or Tolkien-esque works), because those trope should not exist and because heroism and heroic acts have their heavy price.

All idealistic heroes in OC simply met their tragic (or mundane) end, or became cynical and broken.

This is subversion, not deconstruction.

 

Here's an example: Spec Ops The Line. Love it or hate it (personally I adored it) you can't deny that the game was trying to say "Call of Duty sucks, and this is why."

 

The game you're talking about is one that says "Baldur's Gate sucked, and this is why." You could make a damned good game about that, but NWN2 is not that game, nor is it trying to be. Mask of the Betrayer is almost "Forgotten Realms sucks, and this is why" but it never quite goes that far with critiquing the problems behind the setting's design.

 

The closer i can think of is P:T "RPGs suck, and this is why"