Want to shoot your Ex? The NRA has a doll for that..

[Woldan]

It's all about risk versus reward for me.  My gas BBQ is not the safest thing to have around my house.  I have to be careful with it.  But I use it to feed my family and so it is worth it.  A hunter can make the same argument about a gun.  But I don't see how you can reasonably argue that it is safe to have firearms in the house.  You are taking a risk, you are doing what you can to mitigate those risks, but they still exist.

 

 

Self defense. Imagine the statistically unlikely but still very real threat of armed home intruders. Such things happen daily; even in our perfectly save bubble-world.

When said situation happens do you rely on your ability to....

 

a.) beg to them to not get hurt

b.) talk them down

c.) scare them away simply with showing presence

d.) jump to the phone to call the police and wait for them which will take a couple of minutes (15 in my case)

e.) lock yourself and your loved ones in a save room

 

OR do you do all the things mentioned above BUT with a gun in your hand in case nothing works and the worst case scenario happens - you have to defend yourself and your loved ones in the only way left.  

In my opinion its never a bad thing to have more options, it would be extremely unlikely that armed robbers would engage me when I SHOW them that I'm armed and equal, nobody wants to risk their life for some furniture, a computer and a couple of bucks. The even more extreme way almost never gets ignored - a warning shot. If that fails, well...

 

Its never bad to have more options. 

*edit* Even here in Austria its not such a great place when it comes to crime like armed robbery, only a couple of kilometers where I live a homeowner got attacked in the middle of the day by several intruders, got nearly beaten to death with an iron pipe and got robbed. The police arrived at the scene 20 minutes later. 

Such robberies happen increasingly often. 

 

 

 

 

I also get that you don't feel it's a risk, but I think that's being naive. 

Follow the rules of gun safety, store your gun in a safe and its impossible to have an accident. There is no naivety, only logic and responsible firearm handling. 

Edited May 16, 2013 by Woldan

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

No, what I find really worrisome is that you make absurd comparisons like this.  I thought it goes without saying that the philosophy of ''Try it out before judging'' doesn't work with everything, but it certainly works with things like guns or sports.

When you use the word "things", you are using a term that is completely vague. You should insert qualifiers into your statements if you do not want it to apply to any conceivable scenario.

 

Also it is perfectly acceptable to judge guns or sports without trying them. If you have a history of depression, avoiding having a weapon that you could kill yourself with around is a good idea. Avoiding American Football because the high percentages of player injury worries you is a good idea.

 

This early ?

Anytime is a good time to drink!

Edited May 17, 2013 by KaineParker

[TrashMan]

If you suffer a gun accident during gun cleaning you have to be pretty incompetent, because that means you left a bullet in the chamber.

It's like crossing the street without looking left or right.

 

People cross the street all the time because they know it's safe if they pay attention and cross when there are no cars (or they are far away).

[Walsingham]

reductio ad absurdum.. I've done all that, I'm connected to the internet with my mind.. (also I don't have a family) while I get the premise of your argument, you however fail to adress that guns serve no practical purpose beyond a defense against what you and yours insist is threatening. I fail to see the actual danger as outweighing the danger of the gun itself. And to counter your veiled insult, if you treat such a deadly device with such reckless abandon, I'm very happy I don't share my living space with you.

 

You've obviously never come unexpectedly face to face with a baboon.

 

EDIT:

 

I don't want to come across to a bystander as if I'm trying to bash Rosbif. He's a good lad, and to do him credit he's trying to get his head round an opposing viewpoint. How often do I do that? Not very ****ing often.

 

I'd also observe that human perceptions of risk are notoriously borked. Even if Ros accepted logically points about gun safety it's unlikely he'd change his behaviour. I don't pay any attention whatsoever to the statistical likelhood of the things which scare me, in terms of taking precautions.

 

However, I'm not saying we can't try and dscuss this sort of thing rationally when it comes to _national policy_. At that level and where a risk is shared by all, precautions should be oriented on rationalism.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Walsingham

[Rosbjerg]

 

 

I'd also observe that human perceptions of risk are notoriously borked. Even if Ros accepted logically points about gun safety it's unlikely he'd change his behaviour. I don't pay any attention whatsoever to the statistical likelhood of the things which scare me, in terms of taking precautions.

 

Hmm true.. I guess we can sum it down to this..

 

 

And I do, I bike without a helmet because I belive that's safer.. I choose live in the most shady part of my city because it's more fun and because I know how to not get shot, robbed and stabbed.. I hadn't taken illogical risk assessment vs fun/payoff into account Walsh. Thanks, that was actually an eye opener.

[Walsingham]

You bike without a helmet?!

 

If these forums occasionally make us see ourselves in a new light that's got to be good.

[Rosbjerg]

This is a family board, so you get the PG version.

[Hurlshort]

This is a family board, so you get the PG version.

 

So biking without a helmet is innuendo?  

[Lexx]

 

It's all about risk versus reward for me.  My gas BBQ is not the safest thing to have around my house.  I have to be careful with it.  But I use it to feed my family and so it is worth it.  A hunter can make the same argument about a gun.  But I don't see how you can reasonably argue that it is safe to have firearms in the house.  You are taking a risk, you are doing what you can to mitigate those risks, but they still exist.

 

 

Self defense. Imagine the statistically unlikely but still very real threat of armed home intruders. Such things happen daily; even in our perfectly save bubble-world.

When said situation happens do you rely on your ability to....

 

a.) beg to them to not get hurt

b.) talk them down

c.) scare them away simply with showing presence

d.) jump to the phone to call the police and wait for them which will take a couple of minutes (15 in my case)

e.) lock yourself and your loved ones in a save room

 

OR do you do all the things mentioned above BUT with a gun in your hand in case nothing works and the worst case scenario happens - you have to defend yourself and your loved ones in the only way left.  

In my opinion its never a bad thing to have more options, it would be extremely unlikely that armed robbers would engage me when I SHOW them that I'm armed and equal, nobody wants to risk their life for some furniture, a computer and a couple of bucks. The even more extreme way almost never gets ignored - a warning shot. If that fails, well...

 

Its never bad to have more options. 

*edit* Even here in Austria its not such a great place when it comes to crime like armed robbery, only a couple of kilometers where I live a homeowner got attacked in the middle of the day by several intruders, got nearly beaten to death with an iron pipe and got robbed. The police arrived at the scene 20 minutes later. 

Such robberies happen increasingly often. 

 

 

 

 

I also get that you don't feel it's a risk, but I think that's being naive.

Follow the rules of gun safety, store your gun in a safe and its impossible to have an accident. There is no naivety, only logic and responsible firearm handling.

 

Never heard of a case of armed home intruders here in germany since a very long time. In pretty much all cases, the intruders are waiting till you are not at home to start their robbery. Now I am not saying that it can't happen, just that it is a lot more likely to get your home cleared if you are at work or in hollidays than with gun wielding thugs in the night. And in such cases, a gun won't be worth anything to you. That might be different in other countries, but then again... maybe the intruders must be armed there, because home owners have guns too? :>

 

Besides, imagine your guns are stored safely in whatever room. You are in a different room. Now you have armed intruders getting into your home... and you won't be able to reach your gun store, because the intruders are in front of you. Again, your guns won't be worth anything to you now.

 

Besides #2, if you are armed and in front of the intruders, you might scare them / make them aggressive, so a firefight is actually more likely than without guns.

[Walsingham]

 

 

It's all about risk versus reward for me.  My gas BBQ is not the safest thing to have around my house.  I have to be careful with it.  But I use it to feed my family and so it is worth it.  A hunter can make the same argument about a gun.  But I don't see how you can reasonably argue that it is safe to have firearms in the house.  You are taking a risk, you are doing what you can to mitigate those risks, but they still exist.

 

 

Self defense. Imagine the statistically unlikely but still very real threat of armed home intruders. Such things happen daily; even in our perfectly save bubble-world.

When said situation happens do you rely on your ability to....

 

a.) beg to them to not get hurt

b.) talk them down

c.) scare them away simply with showing presence

d.) jump to the phone to call the police and wait for them which will take a couple of minutes (15 in my case)

e.) lock yourself and your loved ones in a save room

 

OR do you do all the things mentioned above BUT with a gun in your hand in case nothing works and the worst case scenario happens - you have to defend yourself and your loved ones in the only way left.  

In my opinion its never a bad thing to have more options, it would be extremely unlikely that armed robbers would engage me when I SHOW them that I'm armed and equal, nobody wants to risk their life for some furniture, a computer and a couple of bucks. The even more extreme way almost never gets ignored - a warning shot. If that fails, well...

 

Its never bad to have more options. 

*edit* Even here in Austria its not such a great place when it comes to crime like armed robbery, only a couple of kilometers where I live a homeowner got attacked in the middle of the day by several intruders, got nearly beaten to death with an iron pipe and got robbed. The police arrived at the scene 20 minutes later. 

Such robberies happen increasingly often. 

 

 

 

 

I also get that you don't feel it's a risk, but I think that's being naive.

Follow the rules of gun safety, store your gun in a safe and its impossible to have an accident. There is no naivety, only logic and responsible firearm handling.

 

Never heard of a case of armed home intruders here in germany since a very long time. In pretty much all cases, the intruders are waiting till you are not at home to start their robbery. Now I am not saying that it can't happen, just that it is a lot more likely to get your home cleared if you are at work or in hollidays than with gun wielding thugs in the night. And in such cases, a gun won't be worth anything to you. That might be different in other countries, but then again... maybe the intruders must be armed there, because home owners have guns too? :>

 

Besides, imagine your guns are stored safely in whatever room. You are in a different room. Now you have armed intruders getting into your home... and you won't be able to reach your gun store, because the intruders are in front of you. Again, your guns won't be worth anything to you now.

 

Besides #2, if you are armed and in front of the intruders, you might scare them / make them aggressive, so a firefight is actually more likely than without guns.

 

 

Erm... why would you assume you have your guns in another room? Are you just basing that on 1/x where x is the number of rooms in the house?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

It's all about risk versus reward for me.  My gas BBQ is not the safest thing to have around my house.  I have to be careful with it.  But I use it to feed my family and so it is worth it.  A hunter can make the same argument about a gun.  But I don't see how you can reasonably argue that it is safe to have firearms in the house.  You are taking a risk, you are doing what you can to mitigate those risks, but they still exist.

 

 

 

Self defense. Imagine the statistically unlikely but still very real threat of armed home intruders. Such things happen daily; even in our perfectly save bubble-world.

When said situation happens do you rely on your ability to....

a.) beg to them to not get hurt

b.) talk them down

c.) scare them away simply with showing presence

d.) jump to the phone to call the police and wait for them which will take a couple of minutes (15 in my case)

e.) lock yourself and your loved ones in a save room

OR do you do all the things mentioned above BUT with a gun in your hand in case nothing works and the worst case scenario happens - you have to defend yourself and your loved ones in the only way left.  

In my opinion its never a bad thing to have more options, it would be extremely unlikely that armed robbers would engage me when I SHOW them that I'm armed and equal, nobody wants to risk their life for some furniture, a computer and a couple of bucks. The even more extreme way almost never gets ignored - a warning shot. If that fails, well...

 

Its never bad to have more options. 

*edit* Even here in Austria its not such a great place when it comes to crime like armed robbery, only a couple of kilometers where I live a homeowner got attacked in the middle of the day by several intruders, got nearly beaten to death with an iron pipe and got robbed. The police arrived at the scene 20 minutes later. 

Such robberies happen increasingly often. 

 

 

 

 

I also get that you don't feel it's a risk, but I think that's being naive.

 

Follow the rules of gun safety, store your gun in a safe and its impossible to have an accident. There is no naivety, only logic and responsible firearm handling.

Never heard of a case of armed home intruders here in germany since a very long time. In pretty much all cases, the intruders are waiting till you are not at home to start their robbery. Now I am not saying that it can't happen, just that it is a lot more likely to get your home cleared if you are at work or in hollidays than with gun wielding thugs in the night. And in such cases, a gun won't be worth anything to you. That might be different in other countries, but then again... maybe the intruders must be armed there, because home owners have guns too? :>

Besides, imagine your guns are stored safely in whatever room. You are in a different room. Now you have armed intruders getting into your home... and you won't be able to reach your gun store, because the intruders are in front of you. Again, your guns won't be worth anything to you now.

Besides #2, if you are armed and in front of the intruders, you might scare them / make them aggressive, so a firefight is actually more likely than without guns.

 

Erm... why would you assume you have your guns in another room? Are you just basing that on 1/x where x is the number of rooms in the house?

Well if you're going to store guns in a safe, it would be likely that most people would only have one safe, that sits in one location. Spending all of your time in that room to have easy access to the safe is a bit impractical.

[Rosbjerg]

 

This is a family board, so you get the PG version.

 

So biking without a helmet is innuendo?  

 

 

haha .. Now it certainly is. Man, you can take that in so many wonderfully dirty directions.. Like "I'm and offroader"

 

Wait, what are talking about again?

[Woldan]

Never heard of a case of armed home intruders here in germany since a very long time. In pretty much all cases, the intruders are waiting till you are not at home to start their robbery.

There are many (too many) cases where the robbers didn't give a crap about the homeowner being home or not, thats why they were armed in the first place. And as far as I know robbers weren't psychic so they didn't know somebody was at home or not, not everybody works at daytime and there are things like holidays, people who work from their home, old retired people, farms, women with babies staying at home.

Carefully planned-out robberies are mostly fictional, unless we're talking about pros planning bank heists.

Besides, imagine your guns are stored safely in whatever room. You are in a different room. Now you have armed intruders getting into your home... and you won't be able to reach your gun store, because the intruders are in front of you. Again, your guns won't be worth anything to you now.

What part of ''a chance is better than none'' don't you understand? I have my safe in my living room, thats where I spend most of my time at home anyway and its quickly and easily accessible.

Besides #2, if you are armed and in front of the intruders, you might scare them / make them aggressive, so a firefight is actually more likely than without guns.

If that was true police officers wouldn't carry guns, their sidearm would make criminals aggressive and that would only lead to an escalation of the situation and firefights, right?

 

I remember a case where a tobacconist's shop was robbed right in the middle of the day, even though the owner was unarmed and did everything that guy wanted he stabbed him multiple times in the liver for no reason, he almost died. He was robbed AGAIN some time later, he had a shotgun and chased away the wannabe-robber. (Later he was robbed yet again, thats when he retired)That happened about two years ago here in Austria, right where I grew up.

 

Bottom line is if I'm not armed they can do whatever they want with me because I cannot defend myself at all. You really want to have your life depend on the mood of criminals? I don't.

[Lexx]

I never said it will make them aggressive, I said you *might* make them aggressive - there is a difference.

 

It's similar to being robbed on the street. If you draw a knife, you are executing an aggressive act, which probably won't scare off your attacker, but rouse him. If there is more than one thug, you most likely won't scare them off, especially if they feel like being tough guys and you don't look like a tough guy.

 

 

Comparing this with the police is a bit off, as the police is often dealing with "worse" things. But yeah, while we are at it: Many police forces are equipped with tasers nowadays. While also being able to kill people, they are a little less mortal than "normal" guns.

 

There are many (too many) cases where the robbers didn't give a crap about the homeowner being home or not, thats why they were armed in the first place. And as far as I know robbers weren't psychic so they didn't know somebody was at home or not, not everybody works at daytime and there are things like holidays, people who work from their home, old retired people, farms, women with babies staying at home.

Carefully planned-out robberies are mostly fictional, unless we're talking about pros planning bank heists.

Not sure how it is in austria, but in my area, criminal gangs are scouting a house for a while, then break in when the timing is good and then never come back to the place. I never heard of a case where they actually had been caught by anyone in the house or neighbours yet.

 

 

Anyway. I don't care if you have weapons anywhere in your house. I just find it funny how some people try to defend them with "I must protect myself from all the evil in the world", as if they are getting robbed every week at least once. I personally wouldn't mind "I like guns, so I own a few"-stuff. Myself, I love bows and I am keeping a compound bow in my house, stashed securely as if it would be a gun, with the amunition in a different place, and I am fine with that.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Lexx

[Walsingham]

Isn't a more pertinent question: what if your ex isn't in the room with your gunsafe?

[Woldan]

It's similar to being robbed on the street. If you draw a knife, you are executing an aggressive act, which probably won't scare off your attacker, but rouse him. If there is more than one thug, you most likely won't scare them off, especially if they feel like being tough guys and you don't look like a tough guy.

No.

If I was a robber and see my victim pull a knife I'd certainly NOT attack because I don't want to get into a knife fight for a couple of bucks. I think most people would react similarly, only unarmed easy victims are fun, armed victims means trouble and an unnecessary amount of danger. Just look for a new victim that is less dangerous.

Same thing with animals, there are many insects and animals that make very tough prey, predators usually leave them alone after finding out that they have hidden weapons and aren't as easy to kill as they thought. It certainly doesn't make them more aggressive.

 

Comparing this with the police is a bit off, as the police is often dealing with "worse" things. But yeah, while we are at it: Many police forces are equipped with tasers nowadays. While also being able to kill people, they are a little less mortal than "normal" guns.

Tasers are defensive weapons. And no, it doesn't matter that they're police and I'm not, they have a gun to defend themselves against threats, armed ones, just like me.

 

Not sure how it is in austria, but in my area, criminal gangs are scouting a house for a while, then break in when the timing is good and then never come back to the place.

In my area criminals consist of groups of immigrants traveling by van and , randomly robbing remote houses near freeways at night. And they're often very violent.

Maybe its really different in Germany, our police sucks. According to recent studies only about 20% of crimes get solved, and that statistic comes from the government itself so I bet its even worse than that.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Woldan

[Hurlshort]

Austria sounds like a super dangerous place to live.  

[alanschu]

Certainly moreso than Canada.

[Guard Dog]

I have no problem at all with the folks who choose not to own firearms. I have a very real problem with the folks who want to take mine away from me. Generally they are one in the same... but not always. 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I have no problem at all with the folks who choose not to own firearms. I have a very real problem with the folks who want to take mine away from me. Generally they are one in the same... but not always.

I'm going to hold your guns for ransom until you convince the Republican party to legalize marijuana.

Edited May 18, 2013 by KaineParker

[Walsingham]

Hold on there fellah. If the state legalised marijuana they might actually have the policing resources to chase down gun owners. Not really what GD is after.

 

I'm in favour of legalising it, before anyone jumps on me.

[Guard Dog]

Gotta agree with you guys in this one. Prosecuting MJ users is nothing but big nanny government BS. I say legalize it and tax it. Besides, nobody ever got stoned and then killed their wife. Booze certainly can't boast that.

 

Funny thing is, if it were legal I still wouldn't use it. I just hate the idea of the government telling people what they can't do when it hurts nobody.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Guard Dog

[Walsingham]

I'm with GD. I think I might use it maybe once a year in a summer salad dressing.

 

I'm really really tired because I didn't sleep last night. But I feel as if we fundamentally have to accept that certain tides in our cultures and economies are beyond our control.

 

I wrote six different third paragraphs and have given up. I don't know if I'm becoming wiser, more lazy, or more cowardly.

[Hurlshort]

I think you will see marijuana legalized in a somewhat controlled sense within the next 10 years.  You've already got a couple states doing it.

 

I'm already laying the groundwork to get my wife to try it.  She is super against anything that is illegal, but I think I can get her to try it someday.  I was never into it much in college, but there are certain activities I would like to try under the influence.  She's also really against smoking in general, but I think I can get around that with those vaporizer things.  

[Walsingham]

I haven't tried it since college either. Not everyone gets along with it, but I enjoyed it, then very deliberately left it the hell alone. I get my altered consciousnesses through ethanol, exercise, disease, and meditation; in that order.

 

Your wife could try it in food - when it becomes legal. I remember thinking it tasted like a nuttier oregano.

 

I wonder what it would taste like sauteed in butter and black pepper, then served over fresh asparagus?

 

LOL. I've probably entirely mis-remembered after all this time, anyway. Probably tastes like old socks.