The good, bad, and the ugly in Infinity Engine games

[Jarmo]

@Jarmo:

 

Care to say more about your reasoning for liking D&D as a cRPG system? Not gonna try to convince you otherwise or anything. I just like to understand opinions that differ from mine.

 

 

D&D or just D20

 

Well.. for one,

it's not like I have tried every RPG out there though I have tried a good large chunk of CRPG's. So if Pathfinder is better, I wouldn't know.

 

For two,

I like the character building, especially in 3.x with with a bunch of feats to choose from, character classes to mix and match.

I like the option of doing a stealth rogue, or swashbucklerish combat rogue/fighter, or hacks-with-axes rogue/barbarian, or rogue/priest or whatever.

 

For three,

It's a polished system in most any iteration, not without quirks, but clearly there's more thought put into D&D than most any CRPG ruleset.

It's obvious 2.x was an improvement over base game and 3.0 an attempt to improve on that, 3.5 a further polish. It's a real solid base.

 

For four,

Temple of Elemental Evil. Because it's awesome.

The so called plot is a load of turd, the setting is old style good vs evil boring bore, most (all?) quests are just bad.

But the tactical combat is pure gold, simply brilliant. The learning curve and early game are soul crushingly hard.

Exactly the kind of game I'd expect myself to hate, because I go for the stories, loved ToEE instead for some unknown reason.

Maybe because it's also fair. Mage opponents don't autobuff 19 protections at the start of the fight or anything like that.

 

Also stuff I dislike. The whole Vancian magic style, the save or die spell effects, the huge loads of hitpoints.

Basically I like D&D on fighter type characters, at early enough levels so not everybody is a hulking hitpoint bag.

 

What I'd like to see, would be a crpg where character progression is more skill and less hitpoints.

So you could, at later levels, beat 12 swordsmen by yourself, not because you can survive 47 sword strikes,

but because they just can't hit you.

[PrimeJunta]

Okay, how screwed am I?

 

I'm basically out of cleric. I swapped out Branwen, who didn't like my style anyway and took off. Then I found a cleric I like, that dwarf in the Cloakwood mines. So I swapped out Jaheira and Khaled for him, and went to grab that paladin dude instead and do some adventurin'.

 

And... I didn't know his quest was on a timer. By the time he started to nag about it, I was several days away from the mines, and he quit the party before I made it back.

 

So I'm basically all out of cleric. The only healing power I have is that poor paladin's lay-on-hands. The only other divine caster I've come across is a druid in Cloakwood. Suggestions?

 

(N.b. -- I don't keep backup saves, only a quicksave and the previous autosave. So I can get my gear back from that dwarf by going back a notch, but that be about it.)

[Malekith]

Okay, how screwed am I?

 

I'm basically out of cleric. I swapped out Branwen, who didn't like my style anyway and took off. Then I found a cleric I like, that dwarf in the Cloakwood mines. So I swapped out Jaheira and Khaled for him, and went to grab that paladin dude instead and do some adventurin'.

 

And... I didn't know his quest was on a timer. By the time he started to nag about it, I was several days away from the mines, and he quit the party before I made it back.

 

So I'm basically all out of cleric. The only healing power I have is that poor paladin's lay-on-hands. The only other divine caster I've come across is a druid in Cloakwood. Suggestions?

 

(N.b. -- I don't keep backup saves, only a quicksave and the previous autosave. So I can get my gear back from that dwarf by going back a notch, but that be about it.)

Sucks to be you then. The only way is to cheat. Go to the point you have the cleric and instead of traveling to the mines use the console to teleport there.

Saves you the time of travel. If you don't want to do that, go find Viconia.

[PrimeJunta]

It's funny, that. Cheating completely ruins a game for me. I'll exploit the bejeezus out of it but once I bring up the console, I completely lose interest. I'd rather start over. Just not sure if BG is enough of my thang to do that. Maybe later. I think I got a pretty good idea of what it's about as it is.

 

Oh, and, being the racist human Lawful Goody type, I already turned Viconia over to those good peacekeeping Flaming Fist types, so that option's a no-go as well.

 

Oh well...

Edited March 21, 2013 by PrimeJunta

[Malekith]

It's funny, that. Cheating completely ruins a game for me. I'll exploit the bejeezus out of it but once I bring up the console, I completely lose interest. I'd rather start over. Just not sure if BG is enough of my thang to do that. Maybe later. I think I got a pretty good idea of what it's about as it is.

 

Oh, and, being the racist human Lawful Goody type, I already turned Viconia over to those good peacekeeping Flaming Fist types, so that option's a no-go as well.

 

Oh well...

Good luck in Durlag's Tower then.

[forfs]

It's funny, that. Cheating completely ruins a game for me. I'll exploit the bejeezus out of it but once I bring up the console, I completely lose interest. I'd rather start over. Just not sure if BG is enough of my thang to do that. Maybe later. I think I got a pretty good idea of what it's about as it is.

 

Oh, and, being the racist human Lawful Goody type, I already turned Viconia over to those good peacekeeping Flaming Fist types, so that option's a no-go as well.

 

Oh well...

Well if you're a human you could dual to cleric, that would be epic change of plans

I usually get Viconia even if I'm playing good party. Because in BG2 you can change her alignment I tell myself that I was working on it for the entire time, but that's just cheating myself, she's just too "good" to not have her in party... I feel playing Baldur's Gate without Viconia is like playing Torment without Dak'kon...

[Razsius]

I am face palming so hard right now Prime...

 

Yeslick's on the second floor of the Cloakwood Mine I don't know why you didn't just finish the place off with 5.  You had to go through like 6 zones just to get *out* of Cloakwood.  You hit chapter 5 after you complete the mines which finally opens up Baldur's Gate proper and i'd say things don't really "start" till you're in the city.  Just grab Faldorn (the druid) if she's still around.  She's not my favorite but she's not absolutely terrible either.  I'd forget about Durlag's Tower without a healer.

 

I don't think there are any more healers if she's not around.  I'm kind of amazed you managed to piss them all off oh no... no wait, I think Jaheria and Khalid will be back in the Friendly Arm... lucky you.  But yes, there won't be anymore clerics up for grabs.

[PrimeJunta]

It's a fair cop. I didn't like some of them, some of them didn't like me. Oh well. Mistakes were made. 

 

Dualing to Cleric -- yeah, that'd work, my dump stat is WIS.

 

I think I'll just call this one a loss and start over. All part of the fun of it.

 

At least now I have an idea of what party members are available and where.  Maybe I'll go with Imoen, Minsc + Dynaheir, that paladin dude just north of Friendly Arm, and Branwen to start with, then swap out Branwen for that dwarf cleric I just lost once I get that far. And play an elf fighter/mage specializing in longbows with a side helping of longswords. Or two-handers? Whoever made the game seems to like making boss greatswords... That should give me plenty of archery power, enough crowd control to swing the tough fights, and just enough healing power to stay alive. With no dualing just because it's such a drag. (Whoever thought up that rule should be spanked.)

 

And I can always turn down the volume so I don't have to hear about Minsc's hamster.

[Razsius]

If you're going to restart anyway it might be a good idea to pick up BG EE instead.  You can do things like dual wield and start with the kits/etc.  It also has a Wild Mage that you can pick up who's not attached to a partner as even I found it difficult to find a satisfactory Mage.  I count 5 in that group so I think you have some wiggle room if you do decide to go the route you're going.  If you're going fighter/mage as a kind of hybrid with bows it might be a good idea to try the ranged version of Kensei which would be the ranger kit Archer.  You'd be raining death left and right with those arrows.  Only reason I haven't gone that path myself was my neurotic nature of having my main character be the lead member of the party.

 

In other news...

 

In *knowing* the teachings of Zerthimon I have become stronger .

 

Dak'kon is awesome period.  I felt he was the strongest of the companions the first time, I feel that way even more so now.  Being able to unlock all the plates of his circle was pretty boss.  "Playing" Planescape is essentially a totally new concept to me.  Normally, I'd be metagaming the heck out of things about now and finishing every quest my eyes laid upon but i'm not doing such right now.  I've blown past a *bunch* of stuff in an effort to get to Pharod.  Problem is, I'm still partially doing it because I'm metagaming but in general even if I'm following the story I find I'd probably make the exact same choice.  I think I've caught on to the "flow" of Planescape but right around the time I get a really good groove going Planescape crashes on me thus absolutely ruining any "roleplaying" I had gotten into... and my mood.  I still feel that the game systems detract *a lot* from the experience however.  Nothing more annoying then having to side quest to "gear up" in case some combat strays my way.  For once, I don't really want to have to do them.

 

So strange that this is coming from me...

 

Edit: It should be noted that I do not have BG:EE myself which is the only reason I didn't answer you Kaine but from what I've seen and heard it would seem to be worth it.  But then again... *points at the Keldoran avatar* would you expect to see anything but an endorsement from me?

Edited March 22, 2013 by Razsius

[PrimeJunta]

@Razsius, I already have dual wielding and the kits; they're in the Trilogy + fix mods which I installed. I'll pass on the Wild Mage. I gave that Archer kit a long, hard look, but I really enjoy playing a 'caster and you can't dual or multi a ranger/mage, so I don't think so. But thanks for the tip.

 

Yah, Dak'kon is awesome. The CTD's, not so much. How many circles did you unlock? You sure you got all of them? Also I agree about the game systems getting in the way. With no missile weapons low-level combat is... not like BG. OTOH you can't die, and you can Raise your companions, which makes it a fair bit more forgiving in its way. And... IMO with PS:T, turning down the difficulty to make the systems less of a chore is no sin.

[Ffordesoon]

BG: EE is nice. It's not essential; plenty of mods do more or less the same things, though the zoom feature and extra content are nice bonuses that you won't get anywhere else, and it does seem to be slowly growing into its own thing. They added a couple more monk kits in the latest update, for example, and the game is actually rebalanced for the BG2 classes, which isn't the case with the BG Trilogy mod, as far as I'm aware.

 

I would say it's worth getting overall, but a current purchase is more of an investment in potential than anything.

 

And yeah, PST does wear its systems like a suit that's a size too small for it. 2E was always kind of crap, but the overly prescriptive D&D alignment system doesn't quite work in the game's favor either. One of the big reasons I'm looking forward to Tides of Numenera is because the Numenera PnP system feels as though it was created specifically in response to the first Torment's mechanical flaws. I was initially disappointed that they were going with another PnP system, but when I read up on Numenera, I was like, "Son of a...! Monte Cook addressed all of my complaints without even knowing it!"

 

It helps that they're acutely conscious of the game's other mechanical flaws, of course. I sort of wish someone would do a total conversion of PST using the Numenera ruleset, as that would clearly be the superior way to play the game going forward.

 

(NUDGE NUDGE, INXILE AND MODDERS. )

 

It's also worth noting that the CG portraits have not aged well at all, particularly those in the bestiary. They have that "made out of paint-coated pipe cleaners" look common to the prerendered models of the day. Every time I look at the Black Abishai's picture, I feel like I'm flipping through the first-year Digipen portfolio of one of those dudes that dropped out and now makes those creepy CG porn images, you know? The ones that slap you in the face with the realization that the uncanny valley is still a thing?

 

Er, hmm, I know I was going to make a point, but I can't remember—

 

OH! Yeah, I guess I should ask you if you're playing with the PST Tweak Pack and Fixpack, Raz. So, er, are you? Stackable items make a big damn difference.

[PrimeJunta]

Word. The Numenéra system is an example of streamlining done right. Meaning: it's a system designed with a clear and specific goal in mind -- to provide just enough structure to make it feasible to run a story-heavy RPG campaign. For a Torment game I'd say it sounds just about perfect.

 

It would be a poor fit for a combat-heavy, tactics-heavy game though -- the wrong choice for P:E, for example.

 

I had the book ordered before T:ToN was announced, actually. My current D&D campaign is winding to a finale, and I wanted to do something different next.

[oneda]

I have to agree with the thread starter.

 

Bg2 and Icewind dale 1&2 I really luved. Specially Bg2 which i consider to be the best rpg i ever played to date.

 

What Icewind dale 2 made better was the combat. That waves of enemies would suddenly come from different directions in multiple stages and you had to block their path with webs and such. What I also really liked was that some encounters in Icewind dale 2 really went on and on. The battle would take minutes sometimes and you had to move your party into better positions, retreat and use certain spells to block a path, or slow a group down, or cast that sphere thing on a party member that is about to die or what not. On higher difficulties I truely enjoyed the encounters, with dozens of monsters littering the ground all around me, my party in the red with only magic missiles and no heals at all left, with a storm of magic all around me at the peak of the battle, giant elementals or undead zombie lords i spawn to cover me.

 

In Icewind dale 2 there was a little more of that feeling that you get overrun at times. Fighting only 10 enemies isnt really that epic. Theres more to it and I don't want to write endlessly about why it was so much fun.

 

But if Obsidian takes the story and interaction from Bg2 and Planescape, implements a fresh combat style as cool, hopefully even much better, than in Iwd2's, then I would be only too happy.

 

The only heart felt wish I have is for the developers to ignore the trend of most modern rpgs:

 

Namely, that a game has to be easily accessible, desperatly needs an open world and has to appeal to a wide variety of people (mainstream). For me, that would probably destroy what I hope to be a spiritual successor of those awesome games.

 

Don't get me wrong, some very popular and accessible games I had a lot of fun with. Mass Effect 1-3 were very entertaining. But even playing through the third game for the first time I got bored too quickly with the repetitive combat that had absolutely no level of complexity to it.  Not by a long shot.

 

Apart from story and plot...make the combat epic. Make combat long and brutal at times so that after a fight players thinkg. "Jesus Christ...that was so cool, I just got ambushed by an army of monters and barely triumphed."

 

What also really rocked was that in those games you would encounter many "boss" enemies or monsters that would comment on how far you have gotton or that you are a powerful hero or group but that he or she will stop you. Sounds simple enough but I really dig that stuff.

 

I want so many spells and monsters, that you really have to use a good portion of your spells and abilities to win.

 

Creating a master work of a story, like in Planescape or in Bg2 isn't easy and probably only happens once a decade.

 

But still, put a lot of emphasis on a story and make a good story. It may not be epic or amazing but if its good and the gameplay is as much fun as in Bg2 and Iwd2 then the game will simply rock away any other dumbed down rpgs that I have seen in the last ten years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[beerflavour]

All infinity engine games have their own strengths and weaknesses. You have to remember that back then there wasn't that much choice regarding RPGs where you controlled a whole party. SSI has stopped making RPGs a few years earlier. Their last meaningful tries were the Ravenloft/menzoberranzan games (Eye of the Beholder style), Dark Sun games (round based tactical combat) and the World of Aden games.

 

Dunno. But at the time Baldur's Gate was released I've been literally starved for a D&D game. The aspects I liked (and still like) most are:

 

1) low level cap

2) adventuring is more dangerous due to low levels

3) wilderness areas

4) the big city with all its sights and sounds

 

But still not everything was as rosy. Sometimes you had to find an NPC in a house and it was hard to identify the houses in Baldur's Gate. Finding a decent shop in that town was difficult at first.

Edited March 25, 2013 by beerflavour

[PrimeJunta]

Okay, another Let's Play interim report.

 

Faffed about with my multiclass character a bit, but she was too fragile to have fun with. So I gave up and decided to brute-force things and rolled up something I've never actually played because I don't care for the role: a paladin. Cavalier to be exact. 

 

Now I have a steamroller. 

 

Imoen, Minsc, Dynaheir, Kivan, Ajanti. I traded in Ajanti for that dwarf fighter/cleric from the Cloakwood mines when I got that far. Cutting through stuff like a hot knife through butter. Almost too easy, except very occasionally; some of the random "You have been waylaid" encounters can get hairy if some nasty beastie gets at Dynaheir. Inventory management is a drag. Nice sense of exploration and discovery; there's a secret or two on every map and it's fun to find them. With those boots of speed I'm lawnmowing like a boss, too. 

 

But damn this thing is bugged. I did flood the damn mines, but that did not reset that dwarf dude's quest timer! I got suspicious when I tried talking to him and he was griping about aimless wandering instead of flooding the mines. Wat? I flooded 'em! He was right there with me all the time! So I tried it: saved, then marched around the map for a week or two, and sure 'nuff, he walked out on me.

 

Time for the Internets. According to that, a killed and resurrected party member's quest timer gets canceled. So he had an unfortunate accident, and then got raised courtesy of the Imam at the Süleymaniye Mosque ^H^H^H Temple of Lathander. Now he has nothing to say to me when I talk to him, so mmmmaybe that sorted it.

 

Unfortunately Ajanti drowned in those mines, so if I'm losing the dwarf dude again I am going to be seriously pissed off at this game. The whole party's at level 6, except him who's 5/5, typically for multiclass. I do not want to grind up to that level again, especially as now I've lawnmowed a great part of the map.

 

Fun level? Varying between mostly tedious and pretty fun. I do get the appeal. I also think the genre has progressed hugely since. It's mostly the dopamine reward circuit that's keeping me going, not particular interest in the lore, world, gameplay, or characters. It's not bad as such, but I still think it's among the weakest of this line of games I've played. The only ones I liked less, I think, were Shadows of Undrentide and Throne of Bhaal.

 

(I have played most of the IE and NWN games; so far I think the only ones I haven't played are ToEE and IWD 2.)

[Jarmo]

BG1, my experience, it was horrible in early levels, then got kind of a boring grind.

When you get to the city, the story kicks in high gear and stuff is fun(ish) for a while,

but then the endgame starts and it's a massive depressive grindfest until the end.

But then you'll win, which is nice.

 

Of the remaining ones. I highly recommend you try them out.

 

I liked IWD2 better than IWD1, when I played them. Maybe because it's D&D 3.x and I like that better than 2.x.

Afterwards though, IWD had a lot more memorable locations and situations and plot content.

 

ToEE. Is a wonderful awesome tactical game, best D&D gameplay ever.

And the only one that doesn't look like million years old. It looks.. well.. tempted to say better than NWN2. 

But the whole world and setting is old skool D&D Greyhawk, simplistic as can ever be.

There's evil dudes doing evil, because that's their job, being evil. So they must be smashed, by good, or neutral, or evil.

And that's the whole plot.

[Ffordesoon]

Oh, ToEE looks worlds better than NWN2. The Aurora engine looked like garbage the first time it was ever used, and only aged poorly from there.

[PrimeJunta]

Oh, and, I checked. Yeslick left, again. Killing and raising him did not stop his quest timer; wandering around the map for a bit got him to leave again complaining about those stupid mines. Do any of you know of a way to really properly reset his timer? This time I did keep a save when I entered Cloakwood so I'll only have to replay that part to get back to where I was. 

 

I really have no luck with clerics.

[forfs]

Well you can edit global variables in shadowkeeper and there is one at the very bottom that's called YESLICK. For me it has value -1, and he didn't ever join my party. You can experiment with that I guess. Also remember you can hold Ctrl+T to speed up the time.

EDIT: theres also a global variable FLOODED, for me it has value 2.

Edited March 26, 2013 by forfs

[PrimeJunta]

Tried one more time. Played through to the Mines, re-recruited Yeslick, flooded the mines, traipsed around the map. Yeslick's timer is still running. Oh well, no cleric for me then I guess. I'll have to make do with Ajanti's lay-on-hands and lots of potions.

[Ffordesoon]

BTW, Prime, the books you want to read for more like Torment are Lord Of Light by Roger Zelazny and The Book Of The New Sun by Gene Wolfe. I mean, you should also read them 'cause they're awesome, but Colin McComb said in the T:ToN AMA that those two books in particular were massive influences on both PST and the new game.

 

EDIT: And I apologize for the apropos-of-nothing nature of this post. I wanted to attach this to my last long post, but I wasn't sure you'd see it there.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Ffordesoon

[PrimeJunta]

Still in re BG: whoever thought that getting randomly struck while lightning because of very frequently occurring weather conditions was a good idea ought to be spanked. Hard. Lawnmowing is getting boring. I'll probably head to Baldur's Gate next, see if the story goes anywhere.

[forfs]

BTW, Prime, the books you want to read for more like Torment are Lord Of Light by Roger Zelazny and The Book Of The New Sun by Gene Wolfe. I mean, you should also read them 'cause they're awesome, but Colin McComb said in the T:ToN AMA that those two books in particular were massive influences on both PST and the new game.

 

EDIT: And I apologize for the apropos-of-nothing nature of this post. I wanted to attach this to my last long post, but I wasn't sure you'd see it there.

 

While we are on the subject of books did you guys read Ursula Le Guin's books? I always thought her Earthsea series heavily influenced the whole immortality and fortress of regret themes of Torment...

[Lephys]

BTW, Prime, the books you want to read for more like Torment are Lord Of Light by Roger Zelazny and The Book Of The New Sun by Gene Wolfe.

I read the Wizard Knight duology by Gene Wolfe, and I had almost no clue what was going on the entire time.

 

Just FYI.

 

And Junta... I'm sorry Clerics hate you so hard they glitch the game just to avoid you. 8(

 

 

Ooh! OOH! It appears as though someone on the Baldur's Gate QA team made a ... ... Clerical error.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Lephys