On combat - item swapping and armor deterioration

[IndiraLightfoot]

I keep thinking that there must be some way to manage all of the logistics and upkeep/maintenance of the party without it becoming onerous.

 

Your typical adventuring party is going to be taking along a bunch of gear and supplies for each expedition, as well as possibly collecting low-value loot. In an IE game, much of that was abstracted, but what if there was some way to handle it through a higher-level logistics interface? For example: you go into a town, search out vendors who will contract with you to sell supplies of various general type, quality, weight and lifetime. That could consist of three or four types of camp supplies, and those in turn would provide various benefits at your camp. Those show up in your logistics interface as a stack of packages, with columns for each type and color codes for the quality.

 

Maybe low quality armory repair gear gives a slight (~5%) benefit to simple weapon and armor performance, which can then be lost through combat (until you return to camp) as a random outcome. The higher quality gear gives a benefit to increasingly better weapons and armor; while the benefit lasts longer on the lower quality gear. Other gear can give improvements to recovery from poison/disease, endurance of the elements, travel rate, and so forth.

 

If nothing else, it would give you a reason to talk to different vendors besides the armor/weaponsmiths.

A great idea, and you touch upon a solution for those of us who want repairs and item condition in the game to matter a bit at least. Via the suppliers that you've buttered up like a biscuit, you can get a small edge in sharper weapons or even more sturdy armour.

 

Weapon Swapping:

 

As long as it's a properly weighty choice (as many have suggested/addressed already), I don't see it as a problem. I think if something's not actively "locked in combat" with you at the time, you should be able to dance around the battlefield, continuously sheathing one weapon and unsheating/drawing another, if you'd like. If an enemy starts charging a Ranger, who's firing his bow at it, I don't see the need to penalize him for drawing his longsword before/as it reaches him. But, it should be a problem if you swap whilst engaged by a foe. Whether it's the extra attacks damage due to the time it takes you to swap weapons, or additional bonuses to the enemy's attack(s) during the weapon swap... doesn't matter to me. That's getting back into the realm of balancing, rather than actual system design.

 

Equipment Degradation:

 

I think the problem isn't actually inherent to the existence of any form of durability system. I think it's that the realism achieved by the state of your equipment being permanent (never improving until you manually fix it, but always declining with every added combat engagement) is outweighed by the amount of work the player puts in.

 

I mean, you first either have to spend your time and effort (with combat, lockpicking/skill-builds, exploration, gathering enough money/selling enough loot for money, etc.) just to obtain necessary equipment. Then, your stuff inevitably gets damaged mid-combat, and you suffer the penalties there. THEN, you have to go all the way back to a repair person (sometimes when you could've otherwise pressed on) AND pay money to have your stuff repaired, or to purchase repair supplies for the road again.

 

Meanwhile, on the opposite side of the spetrum, what's the incentive for doing all this? Being able to actually progress and play the game. One side of that scale's a bit heavy, methinks.

 

The possible solution? Abstract the degradation a bit so that it's a temporary effect, similar to (but not quite the same thing as) a typical de-buff in many RPGs. AND, perhaps, allow for some control over the likelihood or frequency of degradation. A perfect example would be with the weapon types. Maybe, since crushing is so effective against heavy, plate armor, a maul would be the only thing with a chance of damaging the armor itself. And maybe, if a sword is least effective against heavy, plate armor, using a sword against plate would have a chance to damage the sword (Hey! We're creating synergy between degradation AND weapon-swapping! 8D).

 

Heh. Either way, going along with their per-rest/per-encounter system for many durations/limitations for things, at the very LEAST I'd say your stuff should "automagically" get repaired when you rest (an abstraction of the assumption that if you're a seasoned warrior who relies on his gear all the time, you know how to repair it when you get some down time and/or the assumption that you're going to go somewhere to get it repaired anyway.) Another potential layer to such a system would be actual honing/improvements (re-temporing/forging/sharpening/armor reinforcements) that could be optionally purchased and applied to equipment to reduce the likelihood of even short-term armor/weapon durability penalties.

 

Part of that just comes back down to balancing, of course. Okay, they're temporary now, and don't just happen inevitably when you get damaged or attack things (only certain weapon/armor combos). Should you have to put up with them for multiple combat encounters (until next rest area)? Or should they go away at the end of the encounter? Etc.

Your idea on weapon swapping is certainly fair enough, although I just feel so many CRPGS allow you to be bag ladies if a sort. With those inventories I'm surprised we don't see trollies or rather wagons that get dragged along with our beloved pcs. That's why I have high hopes for the top of the pack-idea.

 

Equipment degradation: Lephys, you really shine here!

Temporary abstract armour and weapon degradation like a RPG-debuff is a great and flexible idea that can be fine-tuned easily. And best of all this is an answer to my concern about too long combat, since these debuffs on armour and weapons will soon occur in melee, and that would speed up the outcome of the encounter - especially in higher levels!

And I think it should be coupled with your automagical repair in-between encounters! Both sounds great. Also, if we couple your honing/improvements-idea with Rjshae's suppier ideas, we'd have a rather solid and fun system, methinks.

 

We're getting somewhere, folks!

 

P.S. Rust monsters were fun encounters in PnP D&D. The parties just went bananas every time, hehe!

[curryinahurry]

Don't like the idea of temporary armor degradation...it just seems like an ad hoc solution. Not to mention that would give spell casters a huge advantage as they can counter de-buffs while your typical fighter won't be able to make adjustments on the fly.  Armor degradation only works if armor is given a rating based on quality (a la darklands).  If we work from a percentile system and master-work armors are in the 70s then degradation can easily occur in small sums that have a meaning effect while not ruining the armor immediately or causing hasty swapping.  And as I stated in the earlier post; it should preclude mundane attacks; I'm thinking that dings and dents and punctures can be patched on the fly abstractly, and their inclusion would lead to a frustrating level of micromanagement to all but a few.  

 

This of course begs the questions as to whether magical armor can be degraded, and how such a system would work (a percentile loss in magic bonus? A saving throw system for the armor?).  Not sure that its worth the effort, but if it is instituted, let's have it be logical and consistent and systemic.

[rjshae]

The possible solution? Abstract the degradation a bit so that it's a temporary effect, similar to (but not quite the same thing as) a typical de-buff in many RPGs. AND, perhaps, allow for some control over the likelihood or frequency of degradation. A perfect example would be with the weapon types. Maybe, since crushing is so effective against heavy, plate armor, a maul would be the only thing with a chance of damaging the armor itself. And maybe, if a sword is least effective against heavy, plate armor, using a sword against plate would have a chance to damage the sword (Hey! We're creating synergy between degradation AND weapon-swapping! 8D).

 

That's not an unreasonable approach. But I suspect that all these degradation effects will accomplish is to drive players to carry plenty of extra weapons around.

 

Hmm... then again, maybe certain classes will have spells of item repair (or protection) that can be cast during combat? That would help minimize the issue during lengthy battles. There could also be oils of weapon damage resistance.

Edited January 29, 2013 by rjshae

[IndiraLightfoot]

Curryinahurry: You bring the solution yourself to the thing that you're skeptical about: If some temporary armour degradation can set in, then so can temporary magical armour degradation set in, and drawing that line full out: active spells, such as CC or barriers/resistances can get degraded to, either via spells or by timers or logaritmic degradation over time. IIRC, Diablo 3, made a few such changes to certain spells to make the game more solid.

 

Rjshae: Which of course would be solved with a wisely devised Top of the pack and reasonable item swapping regulations.

[maggotheart]

I don't like weapon/armor degradation. It might be realistic but I feel that it's no fun - I don't find maintaining my equipment enjoyable, and I don't like being punished for forgetting to do it when I'm adventuring in the bowels of some dungeon.

 

My solution to this question would be to reverse it: allow me to gain a slight bonus to my equipment if I take the time to maintain it. The Witcher did this, where you could use a whetstone item on your sword and gain +10% damage for a duration, then it wears off. There were several different kinds of these items that had different effects.

 

This way, people who enjoy item maintenance are rewarded and people who don't enjoy it are not punished.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Maggotheart: As things stand in our little debate here, armour repairs would be "automagically" repaired in-between encounters. It would be just like a temporary de-buff to reflect things that occur in the fray of battle, as it were. And also, your suggestion, would be just as tedious, although a positive effect, so that too ought to be automated if it's in.

Edited January 29, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[maggotheart]

Ah, I somehow misunderstood, sorry about that. Although, I still don't like it
I don't like the idea of my equipment values changing during the course of a battle, it will either be trivial (in which case why bother) or non-trivial which would only increase the reliance on luck.

[IndiraLightfoot]

But in many ways that is what spell casters have done to melee characters all these years in CRPGs: They've lowered their armour with spells, they have made them miss more often with weapons, or they have cushioned blows, etc. It would be business as usual, but effects that could come from an ogre bashing your body too hard yet again rather than an evil warlock shaking you up.

[Nonek]

Personally i'm hoping to not run into combat too frequently, and I certainly wouldn't leave palais de Nonek without my arms and armour being 100% tickety boo, so that i'm prepared for all manner of frolicsome endeavours. I'm hoping that I come back with a comatose companion over one shoulder, my weapons notched and bloody, a few mile of bandages wrapped around the parties wounds, my mages fingers showing signs of repetitive strain injury and my armour sporting that latest off the shoulder/hacked to pieces fashionable look.

 

Having item degradation to me just means that I prepare more, and so take the role of protecting my hirsute behind all the more seriously. It's not that big of a fuss having to partake of a smiths services and clicking a few times after all. They'd just have to balance it correctly so that our sturdy buff coats are not falling apart every few feet.

[TRX850]

Here's my suggestion for Armour and Weapon Degradation.

I had two goals when deciding how it might work.

1. Is it fun?*
2. Does it consider player psychology?

* I'm not sure I'd ever call it "fun", but it can be challenging, compelling, or nailbiting.

Using 3.5ed terms:

- Determine Armour HP and Weapon HP. Suggest AC x 100 and Damage x 100 for new, non-degraded items.
- Once reduced to 0 HP, the item is not lost. It enters a functioning "Degraded" state.
- Degraded armour does not fall to pieces. Degraded weapons do not break.
- Degraded armour retains all enchantments, but its base AC drops by one category (or 3 points) but will never drop below 0, i.e. Heavy Full Plate (AC 8 ) becomes as effective as Medium Chainmail (AC 5), which becomes as effective as Light Leather Armour (AC 2), which becomes effectively clothing.
- Attributes like Armour Type, Max Dex Bonus, Armour Check Penalty, and Arcane Spell Failure are unaffected.
- Degraded weapons retain all enchantments, but their "damage dice" drops by one dice type, i.e. d12 becomes d10, becomes d8, becomes d6, becomes d4, becomes d2, and can go no lower.
- All other weapon attributes remain unaffected.
- All weapons and armour remain fully usable while degraded.
- You can right-click on these items and view current HP. Also have it displayed on the Inventory UI near the weapon selection and AC sections.
- The sudden transition from Normal to Degraded seems to keep with other sudden events in combat, eg, sudden spell effects, sudden criticals, sudden enemy behaviour.

Ways to repair degraded weapons and armour (and you don't have to wait until they are fully degraded):
- Pay a blacksmith.
- Cast a mending spell.
- DIY. Characters with an appropriate background profession or talent like Armourer or Weaponsmith could make the repairs at little or no monetary cost in town or at any workbench.
- Half the item's HP could be mended by hand around a campfire during a rest stage.
- Use a whetstone or honing stone (on slashing/piercing metal weapons).
- Anomalies like wooden or ranged weapons may be excluded from degradation. Unsure.

Final thoughts
- Maybe Fighters have a class ability that lets them double the life of armour and weapons? (Double the HP). Yay, fighters!
- Armour degradation can be thought of as the fastenings being damaged, rather than large sections. Plate mail has rivets, straps and buckles that can break. Chainmail has links that do not fall out, but are simply moved apart revealing a hole. And leather armour also has straps and fasteners.
- Maybe the UI or your character can warn you mid-battle when you are approaching a degraded item state. 10% maybe.
- These suggestions don't cover everything. You guys can have a fiddle with it if you like.
- Thanks to Lephys for suggesting armour and weapons retain their enchantments.
 

PS. I made a suit of chainmail once. It took months, and felt like I was carrying a bag of dry cement on each shoulder. Holy damn it was heavy. But the links are easily re-sewable with the right tools. No need for an armoury.

Edited January 29, 2013 by TRX850

[maggotheart]

But in many ways that is what spell casters have done to melee characters all these years in CRPGs: They've lowered their armour with spells, they have made them miss more often with weapons, or they have cushioned blows, etc. It would be business as usual, but effects that could come from an ogre bashing your body too hard yet again rather than an evil warlock shaking you up.

 

OK, but that really has nothing much to do with equipment degradation, except that you are creating a class of combat debuffs that fighters can 'cast' and referring to them as 'equipment degradation'. You could say that the Ogre bashed you and caused 20% slower movement speed because you are stunned, or you could say the same thing was caused by armour damage (he dented my greaves). If the effect disappears after combat, we're just playing with labels.

[TRX850]

Maybe bows and crossbows become degraded after firing X number of arrows/bolts, so their damage output is one dice lower until they are "re-tensioned", either around the campfire or in town.

 

Degraded Shortbow = d4 damage.

Degraded Longbow = d6 damage.

Degraded Light Crossbow = d6 damage.

Degraded Heavy Crossbow = d8 damage.

[curryinahurry]

Curryinahurry: You bring the solution yourself to the thing that you're skeptical about: If some temporary armour degradation can set in, then so can temporary magical armour degradation set in, and drawing that line full out: active spells, such as CC or barriers/resistances can get degraded to, either via spells or by timers or logaritmic degradation over time. IIRC, Diablo 3, made a few such changes to certain spells to make the game more solid.

 

Rjshae: Which of course would be solved with a wisely devised Top of the pack and reasonable item swapping regulations.

 

Meh...it begins to sound cumbersome.  Also, the imbalance between casters, who can re-establish spell buffs mid-combat, and fighters, who cannot fix armor degradation on the fly opens a massive can of worms.  I think that Maggotheart has it right with his ogre analogy; if we adopt a temporary system, the abstraction can be handled in penalties to actions and protection without getting into any specifics.  This leaves the flexibility to apply penalties across character builds without singling out characters that rely heavily on one type of protection.  Unless there are some high level spells, traps, or monster abilities (dragon's breath, etc.), that have a permanant, irreparable effect, armor degradation seems to be more trouble than its worth.

[rjshae]

The original goal was to shorten combat. But if both your party and the opponents suffer significant equipment degradation, then the net effect may be the opposite of what you want to achieve. I think you will probably want to introduce factors that will incrementally speed up the damage rate. Usually this happens when you've whittled down the opponent's forces and can better concentrate attacks on the few left standing. But perhaps there are other approaches that can be taken?

 

Personally I don't have a problem with combat taking as long as it does; this is mostly for the purpose of discussion.

Edited January 29, 2013 by rjshae

[Lephys]

OK, but that really has nothing much to do with equipment degradation, except that you are creating a class of combat debuffs that fighters can 'cast' and referring to them as 'equipment degradation'. You could say that the Ogre bashed you and caused 20% slower movement speed because you are stunned, or you could say the same thing was caused by armour damage (he dented my greaves). If the effect disappears after combat, we're just playing with labels.

Ehh... I dunno about that. I mean, you go down that line of thinking, and "spells" are just really fancy arrows that don't need a bow. "Poison" damage is actually just a free extra lackey with a tiny dagger who's invisible and only lasts long enough to attack a handful of times.

 

From a mechanics standpoint, equipment degradation is simply an added layer of depth to the physical armor/damage system. Just like weapon/armor types. So, how deep do we go? That's the good question here. BUT, do we just shrug off anything with depth because it adds complexity and potential "annoyance"? I don't think that's a very good idea. Best to explore options before deciding.

 

I mean, finite HP brings an annoyance to the table. "Crap, I HAVE to worry about efficient combat now, or things'll kill me, and I'll have to re-load and try again." But, it's simultaneously fun, because overcoming a combat encounter with limited resources is a much greater accomplishment than doing so with infinite resources.

 

And with depth in something like combat, it's the difference between checkers and chess. Do you just want a number of units that can all do the exact same thing versus a number of other units that can all do the exact same thing, and see who can out-exact-same-thing whom? That would be pretty boring in the context of an RPG. That's why we go with chess. With different pieces that can do different things, only you don't always fight the same groups, and you don't always HAVE the same group at your control.

Here's my suggestion for Armour and Weapon Degradation.

 

-snip-

The only real problem I see (the key word here being "only") with your example system is that it doesn't address the chore created by permanent detriments. In that manner, I'd say that maggotheart's buff comparison is actually quite useful.

 

With equipment, we're used to the emulation of realistic durations of things. They're physical objects, in the game world, and therefore shouldn't change status until something actively changes them. They break down, these things cost money, etc. But, with magical, fictitious buffs, we don't usually do that. We usually just have them wear off after a bit. I think back to the games in which poison didn't wear off at the end of battle (or literally lasted forever if you never spent money on an item or healer to fix it), and those games were EXPONENTIALLY more infuriating than any others.

 

In other words, the fact that we're able to be "debuffed" (or Bizarro Buffed, if you'd like ), is okay with us. Why? Because it's just vulnerability. Either factors can be changed in combat, or they can't. We're okay with that. But, what we're not okay with (purely from a mechanics/human-being-playing-an-interactive-piece-of-software standpoint) is permanence. Upkeep for such simple things. We like the challenge it presents in combat, but we don't like that challenge PLUS "this is going to haunt you unless you pay a monthly fee or lug a bunch of extra repair items around."

 

Dealing with the debuff-like detriments of degradation can bring fun to the table. Paying rent for your equipment pretty much never does.

 

That's why I still say the actual problem with degradation isn't the fact that it comes with detriments, but the EXTENT of those detriments. And if you leave them permanent until fixed, then it doesn't matter if the worst you ever get is 1% loss in effectiveness. That's a negative effect that we don't want, and we have to suffer it UNTIL we go out of our way and spend money/time/effort just to fix it.

 

If there was a die to roll for the effects of the duration of permanent equipment detriments, it would be

a d-infinity.

 

Like I said, though... while I still see that as a problem, I admire the rest of the details of your system. And I'm not at all against having limited items/spells that could mend certain amounts of degradation in the field and/or prevent/increase resistance to degradation. Maybe there'd even be certain enchantments that prevent degradation, or lower it from 3 tiers to 2, etc. (This normal armor can drop 5% up to 4 times, but this enchanted armor can only drop 5% up to twice, etc.)

 

It's all very flexible, really. That's the beauty of mathematical systems and balancing. Of course, it typically takes a while, as our little human brains have to work through all the mathematical effects of every potential decision. 8P

[maggotheart]

What I'm trying to get at is, if you have "Equipment Degradation", but then you say but wait! the effects are minor, you never have to pay to repair it and it just disappears at the end of a fight, you simply aren't talking about equipment degradation anymore. There has to be some permanence to it if you're going to call it that. And if there is permanence to it, I think it's a bad idea for the reasons I and others have stated. I think the concept has been mutated through discussion into a different animal entirely as people try to figure out an equipment degradation system that isn't annoying, and I think the reason for that is it's just a bad concept. The more problems with it you fix, the further away it drifts from being an actual equipment degradation mechanic.

[TRX850]

I agree it doesn't really suit this style of CRPG. But it depends how you view degradation. Complete degradation into broken, irreparable, irreplaceable scrap won't fly with anyone.

And temporary, encounter-only debuffs seem a bit artificial and not really a threat. What I was getting at a few posts back is the idea that your weapon is a bit like your character: it's fully functional until it reaches 0 HP. Then it enters a "state", but not unconsciousness. Just degraded. Reduced to about two thirds of its base stats until you fix it. The easiest way would be to camp and regain half the item HP free of charge, assuming you had a normal whetstone (a few GP from blacksmith merchant) or a requisite armour repair talent. Of course, at low levels, you could just replace the items from regular loot drops. The question is, how do you adapt as you gain levels and acquire magical arms and armour? Do you keep paying a blacksmith to repair them fully, or do you choose a longer term strategy via talents and skills and do it yourself?

 

Edit:

 

Think of the weapon/armour as being "Enfeebled".

Edited January 29, 2013 by TRX850

[Lephys]

What I'm trying to get at is, if you have "Equipment Degradation", but then you say but wait! the effects are minor, you never have to pay to repair it and it just disappears at the end of a fight, you simply aren't talking about equipment degradation anymore. There has to be some permanence to it if you're going to call it that. And if there is permanence to it, I think it's a bad idea for the reasons I and others have stated. I think the concept has been mutated through discussion into a different animal entirely as people try to figure out an equipment degradation system that isn't annoying, and I think the reason for that is it's just a bad concept. The more problems with it you fix, the further away it drifts from being an actual equipment degradation mechanic.

And I get what you're saying. But what you're saying is only true in the interest of the most "realism" possible. If you really want to have actual item degradation, you'd have to completely reforge all your stuff and/or simply forge new stuff, because it would fall completely apart and would require more time and effort to "mend" than it would to simply melt it down and make a new piece.

 

And why can't magic buffs work the same way? Magic is COMPLETELY fictitious, so what's to keep a sorcerer from hexing you permanently, until you go get it removed? "You're paralyzed, UNTIL SOMEONE FIXES YOU, EVEN OUTSIDE OF BATTLE! MUAHAHAHAHA!" Eh?

 

I'd say it's the fact that that penalty is contrary to the purpose of the game. Past SOME temporary duration, paralysis would literally inhibit you from continuing the game.

 

Besides... there is some permanence to it with the temporary implementation. It's just assumed that getting it fixed involves less. In typical systems, it lasts until you go fix it (it never lasts forever, it just technically has the potential to.) Well, it still does, except going and fixing it is easier. And if you don't want it to go away at the end of combat, then have it go away when you rest.

 

Again, if we're abstractly representing equipment degradation so that it never falls apart completely, then what's so crazy about assuming that the amount of degradation/detriment represented is always within the "fixable when we get some downtime, but without going all the way to a blacksmith and paying money" range? It's up to the design team just how abstract to make the system. And how rare to make it, and just how long for it to last, and the possible extent to which it can alter your armor's stats, etc.

 

As I said, the whole thing is quite flexible, really. We just don't see many examples of the flexibility. Why? Because most games assume, just like you, that if it's not permanent-until-fixed-by-money-and-a-smith, it's pointless to incorporate. But, really, it's still different from a buff. Buffs generally have a specific duration (so they can end mid-combat), and armor/weapon damage could only occur with physical attacks (or specific attacks). The differences can be as complex as the design team would like. As long as it's balanceable.

[Nonek]

I still don't see what's so onerous about a bit of inventory management, I went through Betrayal at Krondor repairing my gear and it was a nice little immersive touch, not some horribly jarring and monotonous experience. Still horses for courses I suppose.

[Lephys]

^ There's nothing inherently wrong with it, by itself, Nonek. (I loved Betrayal at Krondor, too, btw, for what it's worth.)

 

But, the problem is this:

 

How much trouble should it be JUST to be at "normal" combat effectiveness for combat that's still going to challenge your skill and ability even when you're at max? Even after earning improved equipment just to help keep your effectiveness at the same level as the combat challenges? Even after already having limited resources (Health, spells, abilities, etc.) between rest areas?

 

Unless the game just adjusts for you, it's not even like the weapon-type-vs-armor-type thing. You can't just say "Oh, I'll just pick feats and abilities to offset my mangled equipment, rather than getting it repaired all the time." You either put forth the effort of fixing it, or you don't. Every single time. And it's INEVITABLY going to need fixing. So, you basically "have" to go fix it when it gets damaged, because the game is already designed with attention to equipment quality and effectiveness in mind.

 

It's literally reverse-progression, as far as mechanics are concerned. "Yay, I got this new armor that blocks 15 damage instead of 10! Thank goodness, 'cause the baddies in this area are doing about 10 more damage per hit than in the previous area. Oh, my armor's broken... Welp, I'm back down to where I was before I bought it. All the enemies, in every combat, gain effectiveness against your character with broken armor, until you actually travel out of your way AND pay additional resources to fix it.

 

And yeah, you could carry consumables around, alleviating the time-wasting aspect. But then, you're restricted, pretty much, to only 1 bout of combat at a time for detriments (if you're fixing stuff as often as possible), and you're still having to pay all that extra upkeep money.

 

The only positive thing degradation adds is the possibility that sometimes, your armor or weapons could become less effective (and so could enemies', I suppose.) Sometimes. By its very nature, it's destined to be a temporary thing as far as mechanics go. It's like "slow" effects in combat. Their intended purpose is to change combat factors, temporarily, not to last until you complete an area and get back to town. That's why, if you had perma-slow debuffs in the game, and it was at all possible to prevent the spell from landing or being cast, people would probably just reload the game and redo combat so that they didn't get slowed. And I'd support them in that. Because being slowed as you simply travel around is pretty pointless. It would serve no purpose other than to annoy. "Movement takes longer, because...". You don't ever have a chance of not-getting to that chest, or not-reaching the end of this cave... it just takes longer.

 

Same thing as with making weapons do 10 damage, and giving everyone 37,000,000 HP. There's no point in combat lasting that long. None, whatsoever.

 

So, I'm simply observing here that the duration (and seemingly redundant detriments) are the biggest perceived problems with most degradation systems.

[Nonek]

Don't have the armour degrade too quickly, should be good for a small adventure/few combats and be makeshift repairable at campsites and such. We should have wear and tear as we go through an adventure, makes combat more of a risk. I certainly don't want to be going through adventures in a permanent state of perfection, there's no strategy in that. Item degradation's a simple system, and doesn't get in the way too much, there's really no need to fix what works or overthink it.

 

The more elements the better, still say to please everybody however that they should stick it in expert mode, obviously a lot of you gents have problems with it.

[TRX850]

What if your armour and weapons could suffer from "fatigue"? It's not actual fatigue, but a state it enters after taking enough physical damage. It may not coincide with when your party is fatigued and needs to rest, but if abstract repairwork is something that can be done around the campfire or at an inn while resting, then it shouldn't be any more of a hassle than regular character fatigue.

[Lephys]

We should have wear and tear as we go through an adventure, makes combat more of a risk.

 

 

But risk is only pertinent when there's a choice involved. If you've escaped into an underground tunnel from a collapsing structure, and the only way to get back to town is forward (through danger and darkness), then it's no longer a risk, it's purely a detriment. "Welp, since you have about an hour's worth of cave to get through, you're just going to have to put up with all that equipment breakage, I suppose." Plus, P:E's already got a health bar that actually handles that same element of risk already.

 

Again, I think it's good to consider just how many thing you need providing that type of long-term balancing act before it's too many.

 

And, as I said, I'm not against degradation. Just... all things in moderation. The realistic aspects of degradation, included.

 

And @TRX, that's precisely the kind of thinking I'm advocating.

 

All the details of degradation effects, just with a muzzle on the hassle.

[Nonek]

Don't go into that dungeon with equipment that's near breakage, as I said they shouldn't fall apart every battle. As far as i'm concerned i'd like as many mechanisms as possible, that's why I backed the kickstarter, to campaign for a game stepping away from the idea that anything other than combat and conversation is superfluous. I'm capable of handling quite a few things in game, certainly checking on the state of my gear and keeping it in good working order is hardly overly onerous.

 

By the way why do you keep calling me a whelp, I don't really mind or anything, it just seems a little strange.

[Lephys]

^ Haha... I apologize. I say "Welp" as kind of a slang for an exasperated "Well...". I didn't mean to cause confusion.

 

And I get what you're saying, but, here's what I'm still getting at:

 

Let's assume your equipment gets into a bad state after 5 combats. Well, are all durations of "you can't go back to town right now" content going to last ONLY 5 combats? That seems a little unnecessarily restrictive. So, if they aren't, then what happens when one lasts 10 combats? You either start it and go through all 10 before getting to repair, or you don't. There is no "Well, I'll make sure I keep my armor repaired." The system itself allows for a problem. And, like I said, if you have repair items you can carry around and use whenever you want (except in the middle of combat), then you pretty much get to repair after every single combat, as long as you take the time to get repair items (which are always available to stock up on). And if you're going to limit repair items in some way, then you're back to essentially the exact same effect as a simple duration, only you're jumping through more hoops just to get to that.

 

I've played oodles of games with degradation in, and I don't personally hate it or anything. I personally don't mind the detriments and such, either. But, NOR do I think we'd be losing anything by reining in the hassles a little bit. I'm simply analyzing the balance between the benefits of degradation (as it's often implemented) and the hassles of it, and it's possible they could be in better line with one another. That's all.

 

And I don't mean that checking on the status of your gear automatically makes everything impossibly complex. But, think of the possibilities from all the factors involved. If you fight enough things/pay enough money, you can find better quality equipment that will grant you a boost to your combat effectiveness. If you continue paying money proportionate to the amount of times you use this equipment in combat, you can actually keep/maintain that boost. Various other effects and actions in combat already function to detriment you, and sometimes to directly negate the boost from your equipment (weaken, paralysis + backstab, etc.).

 

I mean, look at any other system that functions like repair: Resting at an inn never costs money per-point-of-HP missing. Wizards don't have to pay money to replenish their combat effectiveness with their number of spells for the day. Buffs from combat wear off or can sometimes be healed.

 

Spending money to fix your equipment doesn't promote any strategy or skill or cleverness. It's simply an additional cost. That's what makes it a chore.

 

But, having your equipment degrade isn't a chore. It's only the out-of-balance duration and cost of fixing it that makes it a chore. This is why I believe that the most useful solution would be to make it a temporary effect. Essentially, to simply change the manner in which it gets repaired.

 

Ultimately, when it comes to the effects of balancing, the only two factors with item degradation are "extent of penalty" and "duration of penalty." It's job is to be a variable as it relates to combat, and these are the only two aspects that affect combat. Having to go to a smith and spend money to fix things has absolutely no impact on combat. About the only positive contribution that makes is immersion. But I don't think the amount of immersion it provides outweighs the time-wasting, resource-costing detriments to the enjoyment of gameplay. It doesn't provide merely immersion. It always provides immersion AND a stomach-punch to fun.

 

I dare say that's why poison and buffs typically aren't permanent, and the cost of resting isn't based on how many HP you're missing, and missing HP doesn't reduce your combat effectiveness, and regaining spell "ammunition" for the day/rest doesn't cost money per spell, etc. The list goes on.

 

From a real-life standpoint, yes, it's quite interesting. From a gameplay standpoint, it's no more interesting than it is annoying. "You actually attacked that thing with your weapon? Ooooh, that's gonna cost you some repair money, u_u..."

 

It's like a tax, really.