Money in Project Eternity: Get Rid of Adventurer-Based Economy

[TrashMan]

While I understand your reasoning, I think the best you can really do is imply a more complex economy rather than actually having it accessible to you.

 

Implying something without showing it just won't cut it.

 

Why would every merchant have tons of gold to buy everything off of you?

Even if you do find a plate +5, why would you sell it and not use it?

Would the local merchant even want to buy it?

 

Just how many magical items are lingering around?

For one, I'd like to see magical items rare.  As in BG1 rare.

I don't want to see every single slot of every party member having magical items.

 

The economy as it is is broken.

[Jarmo]

 

While I understand your reasoning, I think the best you can really do is imply a more complex economy rather than actually having it accessible to you.

 

Implying something without showing it just won't cut it.

 

Why would every merchant have tons of gold to buy everything off of you?

Even if you do find a plate +5, why would you sell it and not use it?

Would the local merchant even want to buy it?

 

You wouldn't wear a +5 plate if you were a thief and didn't have a plate-capable hunk in the party.

The local merchant would buy it off you, knowing he can make a tidy profit selling it to the big fat merchant in the capital.

 

The best abstraction I could come up with, would be a delay.

The merchant says "ummm... this is not my expertice, but if you leave the plate here and come back in a week, I'll give you your share".

 

You leave the stuff, come back in a week and get your money. 20-50% less than you'd get selling it to the big merchant yourself.

Or you leave the stuff, come back in a week and hear "sorry, the caravan got robbed", you get nothing.

 

Except maybe you get a quest tracking down the bandits.

Or maybe there's no bandits, the merchant or the caravan master is just scamming you. Maybe you can find out.

 

--

Edit. I might have posted similar thoughts in some other thread, or this one, dunno... senile.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Jarmo

[Alexjh]

 

While I understand your reasoning, I think the best you can really do is imply a more complex economy rather than actually having it accessible to you.

 

Implying something without showing it just won't cut it.

 

Why would every merchant have tons of gold to buy everything off of you?

Even if you do find a plate +5, why would you sell it and not use it?

Would the local merchant even want to buy it?

 

Just how many magical items are lingering around?

For one, I'd like to see magical items rare.  As in BG1 rare.

I don't want to see every single slot of every party member having magical items.

 

The economy as it is is broken.

 

Why not?  That's how reality works - you don't know intimatly all the real world mechanics of everything - they just exist and you assume that people who is more an expert in that field that yourself keeps things running over.  

 

The thing you should be considering here is that equiptment gathering is a form of progression, and non magical equiptment only goes so far without it being effectively magical anyway.  As a rule of thumb I'd say that if you divide items into non-magic, low-end magic and high magic it works something like as follows:

 

Start of the game: All non-magic

At 5-10% of the game: Low end magic starts trickling in, 90% of your stuff is still non magical

At 25% of the game: 50% of your stuff is low-magic

At 50% 90% of your stuff is low magic, 10% non magic, high-magic starts to trickle in

At 75% of the game 50/50 on low and high magic

At the end of the game almost everything you have should be high end magic.   

 

As for the point of the +5 plate, that is a matter of character choice, you might have something better, you might already have some, you might not have anyone who needs it, you might just need the money.   As I said earlier, compare it in scope to modern electronics: say you have a really good laptop, but then win a second laptop in a raffle.  If that laptop is exactly equivical to your current one and no one in your friends/family(party) needs it, then you mayas well sell it.  If its better than your current one, then you'd use it, if its worse but still modern enough to have a decent value then you take it to a shop that buys things second hand and you make a bit of money off it.   

 

The key point is that you are saying "the economy is broken", but you aren't really giving me any reason why anyone should care that it is.  Realism doesn't have merit just because it's realistic - if you are saying "the game should be more realistic, because that would make it more fun/challenging/engaging" that's one thing, but you aren't explaining that if that is your view, and just making something more realistic isn't a worthwhile aim in itself.  The removing the becoming rich element is one option, but I don't think that's a good way to resolve that problem, being rich is another form of player progression, what you need to do is maintain the promise of there being things that are worth spending all that money on into the late game, so while you are still rich, you are not rich to the point where you can buy anything.

[TrashMan]

Start of the game: All non-magic

 

At 5-10% of the game: Low end magic starts trickling in, 90% of your stuff is still non magical

At 25% of the game: 50% of your stuff is low-magic

At 50% 90% of your stuff is low magic, 10% non magic, high-magic starts to trickle in

At 75% of the game 50/50 on low and high magic

At the end of the game almost everything you have should be high end magic.   

 

 

Hell no. HELL NO. HELL NO!

 

I don't want to ever...EVER see that again.

If I can fit all my party memebrs iwth magical items (regardless if low or high, but it's especially bad if all is high) then that is not hte setting I will enjoy. I always found it stupid that anyone cna come across that many legendary magic items.

Heck, in some games I always wonderd how come peopel can't detect me from half a continent away, given how much magic energy I must be radiating. If there's such things as magic detectors, they would overload.

 

No, I want for regular items to have their use even at the end of the game. Feels more real.

And gives weapons character. That masterwork longsword I found in BG1 and used for the whole game means more to me than all the +5 swords in the world.

Weapons are made legendary by the people who wield them.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I also got the creeps when I saw that list. It gave me Diablo 3-vibes. I do agree that normal weaponry should be useful throughout and also that magic items shouldn't be flooding the game, and definitely not the shops. Scarce magical items, please, and they don't have to be so heavy-handed, they can have sublte effects and unique things that don't make the entire game hinge upon gear (again Diablo), rather it makes the game more unique and spiced-up. 

[LadyCrimson]

I also got the creeps when I saw that list. It gave me Diablo 3-vibes. I do agree that normal weaponry should be useful throughout and also that magic items shouldn't be flooding the game, and definitely not the shops. Scarce magical items, please, and they don't have to be so heavy-handed, they can have sublte effects and unique things that don't make the entire game hinge upon gear (again Diablo), rather it makes the game more unique and spiced-up. 

Agreed.

...there's a place for Diablo like item workings (which I have nothing against, personally), but games like PE isn't that place. I don't want a game - or combat - that's "loot/gear based" in that sense. I went through BG1 a couple times with nothing but rather plain bows and non-magical arrows, for example ... that type of gear-play ability should remain.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Indeed, that's what I loved about BG1. You could play it all with barely a magical item for at least a third, or a half of the game (before Sword Coast xp). And how much sweeter when you find something magical: I remember I giot  a+1 weapon and was over the moon for it.

[TrashMan]

Indeed. I still remeber finding the Spiders Bane in Cloakwood forest. I was doing a happy dance in my head.

 

By the end game, most of my equipment was mundane. I had one +1 plate, 2-3 magical weapons IIRC.

Just think of LOTR - not everyone had tons of magical items.

 

Like I said - a RPG should be about the character and the journey - not about loot/gear.

I want that masterwork sword to be worth it.

 

Maybe a weapon familiarity system?

The more you use a specific weapon (not type), the better you become with it.

 

So basicly, character X used sword Y for half hte game and it's practicly become an extension of him. Slight bonuses.

 

Thinking of it, who used the weapon and how long would beest be stored as data for a weapon.

 

So sword#180 would have an array with a list of characters that used it and how long they used it, and would grant bonuses depending on user and time/familiarity.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Indeed. I still remeber finding the Spiders Bane in Cloakwood forest. I was doing a happy dance in my head.

 

By the end game, most of my equipment was mundane. I had one +1 plate, 2-3 magical weapons IIRC.

Just think of LOTR - not everyone had tons of magical items.

 

Like I said - a RPG should be about the character and the journey - not about loot/gear.

I want that masterwork sword to be worth it.

 

Maybe a weapon familiarity system?

The more you use a specific weapon (not type), the better you become with it.

 

So basicly, character X used sword Y for half hte game and it's practicly become an extension of him. Slight bonuses.

 

Thinking of it, who used the weapon and how long would beest be stored as data for a weapon.

 

So sword#180 would have an array with a list of characters that used it and how long they used it, and would grant bonuses depending on user and time/familiarity.

 

What a great and novel idea, Trashman! 

 

A system that tracks how loyal you are to a particular weapon. In the beginning, it's just an ordinary weapon, but over time it can be something more than that (still not magical) - and then via a few cool quests or other deeds - it can even become magical. I love it!

This idea goes to the thread "Ideas not to be forgotten" in General Discussion.

[TrashMan]

Glad you like it

 

I have long been pondering RPG mechanics and made a long document with mechancis and systems I'd like to see.

This is one of hte items from the list.

[Alexjh]

 

Start of the game: All non-magic

At 5-10% of the game: Low end magic starts trickling in, 90% of your stuff is still non magical

At 25% of the game: 50% of your stuff is low-magic

At 50% 90% of your stuff is low magic, 10% non magic, high-magic starts to trickle in

At 75% of the game 50/50 on low and high magic

At the end of the game almost everything you have should be high end magic.   

 

 

Hell no. HELL NO. HELL NO!

 

I don't want to ever...EVER see that again.

If I can fit all my party memebrs iwth magical items (regardless if low or high, but it's especially bad if all is high) then that is not hte setting I will enjoy. I always found it stupid that anyone cna come across that many legendary magic items.

Heck, in some games I always wonderd how come peopel can't detect me from half a continent away, given how much magic energy I must be radiating. If there's such things as magic detectors, they would overload.

 

No, I want for regular items to have their use even at the end of the game. Feels more real.

And gives weapons character. That masterwork longsword I found in BG1 and used for the whole game means more to me than all the +5 swords in the world.

Weapons are made legendary by the people who wield them.

OK, just to start, I want to clarify that I mean that those percentages are what you have accumulated, not the percentages of what you are finding, which WOULD be in scale with Diablo, what I'm suggesting is basically trying to be in line with the Icewind Dales, which, personally I consider vastly superior games to BG1. YouI have to also remember that BG1 had an artificial system of keeping low level weapons worthwhile for longer due to the whole iron problem thing. Magic items should be semi-rare sure, no more than a couple per area that are worthwhile relative to your characters level and when in shops the really good stuff should always be overpriced and be a strain to purchase without bankrupting yourself, certainly not the Diablo model of every 3rd guy has something.

 

The problem with a low loot systems in relation to classic inventories is that out of all the classic slots; weapon, shield, armour, helmet, ammo, 2x ring, gloves, boots, neck, cloak, only the first 5 of those have any regular function that works when the item is non magical except in fairly specific circumstances like disguises.  If you are advocating low loot you are basically saying that you fully expect to have those slots empty for most of the game which kind of defeats the point in having them, there should ideally be something to put in all of them by about a 3rd the way through the game, even if it's just say, a cloak made from some magically cold resistant animal or boots rubbed with special silencing oils to aid with stealth.  Realistically, I'd personally prefer it if generic +whatever items were hardly ever ideal - the best stuff should always be the custom storied items with some more exotic benefits to them.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Alexjh: No need for those slots to be empty. You could make rings and amulets that are very faint in magic: Perhaps a talisman that glows a bit in the dark, or a ring that adds to detecting traps or some boots of cold resistance + 5%. I just want to keep the magic loot rare, non-gamebreaking and not the basis for almost half or even worse the entire game (and this is said by someone who loves collecting loot. I enjoyed Diablo 3 a bit, but in this case I wish to see PE opt more for the BG1-approach).

 

Trashman: I'm still excited by your weapon familiarity idea! I'd like to throw in: It would be great if you could name the weapon after a while (if you want to). Also, shields would fit the same idea quite well too. However, for armour it feels a bit silly.

Edited February 14, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[Alexjh]

Alexjh: No need for those slots to be empty. You could make rings and amulets that are very faint in magic: Perhaps a talisman that glows a bit in the dark, or a ring that adds to detecting traps or some boots of cold resistance + 5%. I just want to keep the magic loot rare, non-gamebreaking and not the basis for almost half or even worse the entire game (and this is said by someone who loves collecting loot. I enjoyed Diablo 3 a bit, but in this case I wish to see PE opt more for the BG1-approach).

 

Trashman: I'm still excited by your weapon familiarity idea! I'd like to throw in: It would be great if you could name the weapon after a while (if you want to). Also, shields would fit the same idea quite well too. However, for armour it feels a bit silly.

That's the kind of stuff I meant by low magic, which I'd consider to be anything of +1 or lower, anything that enhances skills or anything that offers minor resistances, gives out light, returning enhancements on throwing weapons, mild poisoning effects and so on.

 

Major magic being things like high + scores, ability to cast spells or use powers, attribute bonuses, major elemental damage, vampiric, wounding, bonus vs specific enemies, damage type immunities, spell resistance and so on. That's kind of stuff, generally speaking, shouldn't turn up u til the second half of the game.  

 

I'd also add I'd beentirely open to the Dungeon Siege 1 model of startingthe game at a 'sub-weapons level' as that was afeature I really liked about that - starting in just your normal clothes with some gardening implements gave bigger scope to the adventure instead of immediately kitting yourself out in combat stuff, the contrast made you feel like you'd come further.  If you were doing that I'd happily endorse shifting the point where you get magic stuff back because then you still have clear character development in a way I don't feel is adequetly served by a weapon quality mechanic.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Well, then we are not at all far apart in this discussion, Alexjh, and the DS I-start sounds like an interesting template. 

[TrashMan]

 

Alexjh: No need for those slots to be empty. You could make rings and amulets that are very faint in magic: Perhaps a talisman that glows a bit in the dark, or a ring that adds to detecting traps or some boots of cold resistance + 5%. I just want to keep the magic loot rare, non-gamebreaking and not the basis for almost half or even worse the entire game (and this is said by someone who loves collecting loot. I enjoyed Diablo 3 a bit, but in this case I wish to see PE opt more for the BG1-approach).

 

Trashman: I'm still excited by your weapon familiarity idea! I'd like to throw in: It would be great if you could name the weapon after a while (if you want to). Also, shields would fit the same idea quite well too. However, for armour it feels a bit silly.

That's the kind of stuff I meant by low magic, which I'd consider to be anything of +1 or lower, anything that enhances skills or anything that offers minor resistances, gives out light, returning enhancements on throwing weapons, mild poisoning effects and so on.

 

Major magic being things like high + scores, ability to cast spells or use powers, attribute bonuses, major elemental damage, vampiric, wounding, bonus vs specific enemies, damage type immunities, spell resistance and so on. That's kind of stuff, generally speaking, shouldn't turn up u til the second half of the game.  

 

I'd also add I'd beentirely open to the Dungeon Siege 1 model of startingthe game at a 'sub-weapons level' as that was afeature I really liked about that - starting in just your normal clothes with some gardening implements gave bigger scope to the adventure instead of immediately kitting yourself out in combat stuff, the contrast made you feel like you'd come further.  If you were doing that I'd happily endorse shifting the point where you get magic stuff back because then you still have clear character development in a way I don't feel is adequetly served by a weapon quality mechanic.

 

 

That isn't even magical. It's mundane.

 

A florescent ring that glows in the dark? No magic needed.

Poison? no magic needed.

Cold resistance? Any fur cloak or boots would help there.

 

So no, I don't see a need for magical items everywhere. And that doesn't make slots pointless. Maybe I jsut want ot have a RED cloak simply because I like the color.

 

 

EDIt: I'm gonna make a new thread for hte weapon familiarity thing tomorrow.. best not to clog this one.

Edited February 14, 2013 by TrashMan

[IndiraLightfoot]

That is true, Trashman - not all slightly better items need to be fainlty magical: they can be of higher quality or have special qualities and treatments onto them that make them interesting, and with your weapon familiarity-idea, things could get interesting that route too (don't forget shields!  ).

 

And I look forward to that thread! 

[Lephys]

That isn't even magical. It's mundane.

 

A florescent ring that glows in the dark? No magic needed.

Poison? no magic needed.

Cold resistance? Any fur cloak or boots would help there.

 

So no, I don't see a need for magical items everywhere.

No one said they wanted them everywhere. Alexjh was specifically advocating quite the moderation of magical things.

 

And, obviously no one's saying you NEED a magical glowing ring to produce light. But, a florescent ring that glows in the dark wouldn't last very long unless you kept striking up a torch or lantern and "Feeding" it some light every so often, which is the whole point behind magical effects. Poison that doesn't require you to stock up on ingredients and coat your blade every 15 minutes? That requires magic.

 

Does the game require those magical things? No. No it doesn't. But, if you decide to have a magical world in your game, then to decide there shouldn't be such magical things, and everyone should only ever use torches and fluorescent things and poison and fur is a bit of a silly decision.

 

Again, such things not being lying about every 5 feet all willy nilly? I'm totally with you. Such things not lying about anywhere simply because they're "unnecessary"? No dice. The whole game is unnecessary. Fiction is unnecessary. Magic is unnecessary.

 

You want the red cloak because you like the color? Maybe people want magic because they like the "color" of it, so to speak. Magic isn't any less necessary than the color of the cloak. (I'm not countering any exact words of yours, here, just stressing the point with context.)

[TrashMan]

Dude, I never said "no magic".

I said it should be rare and I said items don't have to be magical for people to want to use/wear them.

 

I used the color of the cloak as an example why someone would want to wear it even tough it's not magical.

[Shadenuat]

While I share Sea's concerns I don't believe adventurer economy should be abandoned completely in D&D inspired game. Finding treasure and getting rich is parth of it's myth, when we stumble around dungeons carrying swords we are carrying the mantle of Indiana Jones, or all the adventurers from the past searching for pots of gold in dark forests or golden idols in jungles of New World. Getting rich is one of the main motivators in these kinds of stories, and by taking it away, you kinda change the story we're playing. Come on, six dudes in plate mails traveling across the land to find a source of or ?

In my opinion, adventurer economy is boring because search for treasure is *boring*:

- There is too much of it.

- It's usually just abstract coins which everyone accepts.

- Or it's just ton of junk you sell to get more abstract coins.

- Level scaling.

 

And to fix that:

- There should't be too much of it.

- It should be interesting and have backstory for it (not ruby, but Cursed Ruby of Guy Whos Names Are Usually Found on Covers of Conan Books).

- Selling junk should't be the main means to get money.

- **** level scaling.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Shadenuat

[Jarmo]

Dude, I never said "no magic".

I said it should be rare and I said items don't have to be magical for people to want to use/wear them.

 

I used the color of the cloak as an example why someone would want to wear it even tough it's not magical.

 

While I'd like to see (low) magic items all around the place, I'm in the same boat with non-magical high quality or otherwise desirable items.

 

Cloaks btw, could eg. (depending on material used)

 

- give protection from cold (fur), heat (light silk), acid (thick leathery), or whatever

- add a bonus to hiding (black or dark at night, green in forest)

- bonus to charisma or persuasion skills (high quality embroidery giving an aura of authority)

 

.. or whatever, and all that non-magically.

 

I'd just like to see similar (additional?) light magical effects created by random wizards, and those would be no big deal in a magical world.

Like maybe an another 5% to hide by a blessing from a local druid, maybe permanent, maybe lasts a week, maybe single use.

 

Or similar semi-magical effects by using semi-magical materials.

Maybe cloak lined with manticore feathers gives 20% resistance to poisons and acid, is that magical? Maybe, dunno, does it even matter?

 

It's the high end magic stuff that I'd like to be rare, like a cloak giving a 50% competence bonus to hiding, or one that actually turns you invisible.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Jarmo

[Lephys]

Dude, I never said "no magic".

I said it should be rare and I said items don't have to be magical for people to want to use/wear them.

 

I used the color of the cloak as an example why someone would want to wear it even tough it's not magical.

 

Didn't say you did. You were arguing against the necessity of magical things, on the basis that the same effects could be achieved via non-magical things. Recap:

 

A florescent ring that glows in the dark? No magic needed.

Poison? no magic needed.

Cold resistance? Any fur cloak or boots would help there.

 

Since no one (whose post you were addressing) said "Things simply MUST be magical for people to want to use/wear them!", I don't know what I'm supposed to take from your "There's no need for magic to do that" other than "Since we don't need those magical things, we shouldn't have them." So, I simply pointed out the fact that there's a reason, beyond sheer necessity, for things to be incorporated into the game, just like the color of the cloak. "Things" being specific magical items, just like the ones in the quoted example above.

 

I wasn't claiming you were arguing against the existence of magic in P:E. I was merely rebutting the usefulness of the existence of specific magical items, which you argued against on the basis of necessity.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Lephys