Just sneak attacks or backstabs as well?

[Infiltrator_SF]

We've gotten confirmation that rogues will be getting the 3rd D&D sneak attack. But since we're no longer restricted by rulebooks I was wondering if a rogue could get something akin the 2nd D&D backstab.

 

For those who don't know this would translate into stealth+behind target only, devastating hits, which I really liked from the games such as BG2. I assume that the rogue would have to forfeit some other skills as a consequence, of course.

 

Furthermore, the multipliers should definitely not use base weapon damage as it would make daggers and low-damage/high attack speed weapons unfavorable compared to slow weapons with a big base damage.

[Osvir]

Sneak Attack seems to be more of a "Sneaky Attack" making the enemy go "You sneaky bastard!!"

 

Whilst "Backstab" is more a form of "Assassination" ability. I'm hoping Sneak Attack is less <- that and more like that ^ in a way where the "Sneak Attack" could serve a function like "tripping a leg", put one leg forward and make the enemy fall to the ground. Maybe be able to knock the enemy back, throw sand in their faces etc. etc. a sort of "distraction" rather than a damage ability.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Osvir

[Solviulnir the Soulbinder]

Both Backstab and Sneak Attack as well as Crippling Attack are good concepts for Rogues/Thieves/Assassins and I think they should be available (maybe as feats that you can choose after reaching a certain level).

 

On that note, it would be cool if Obsidian could implement the Field of View (or maybe even hearing range) mechanic for the opponents, so even if you can't hide in shadows that well, you could still take advantage of the silent approach (Move Silently?) to some degree. Unless the enemy has eyes on the back of his head, that is.

 

Also, I wish there was a possibility for assassin like character to have a Kill Strike ability. It would be possible only with compact piercing weapons like stiletto, misericorde or even a crossbow bolt held in hand. Such attack could one hit kill any humanoid creature no matter what level it has or what kind of armor it uses (eye stab maybe, head attack in general). The traits/abilities essential to perform such strike would be, for example, Stealth and Weapon Mastery. To counter such attack the opponent would have to roll a saving throw using something like Perception modifier (Perception being higher the less armored the head is). Now if the Perception roll was successful and the attack failed, the assassin would lose initiative for a couple of turns, modifying his "to hit" chance and number of attacks per turn, second or whichever unit of time is relevant (so it would be advisable to have a ranged NPC nearby)...

 

Just an idea.

[Osvir]

Oh! Right, I also want to bring this topic or idea to light as well.

 

Assassin being more of the Cipher role ("The Role of Rogues" Thread) and less "Rogue".

 

"Mind Stab" instead of "Back Stab"?

[Jojobobo]

I'd like to see a non-combat assassination feat. Using this a rogue (maybe some other classes too) could set up a situation and kill someone without it being traced back to them in a public (or at least not entirely private) situation - with the means of killing someone being entirely situational (poison in the drink, discretely fired dart with a fatal allergen on, etc.). This to me is preferable to a backstab, which is in a way a means to assassinate people but being combat orientated, and not really realistic; who could find a perfect spot on someone's back and keep their composure to deliver a killing blow every time - regardless of armour of any other factors? To me it's a nonsensical throwback.

[Osvir]

I really like that idea a lot Jojobobo but it sounds more closely related to plot events and turning points in the game where you decide and make choices ("Should I poison the food or the wine?" type of thing). It sound more related to the Player choice, more so than an active ability.

 

Some ramblings on different mechanics for different Classes/Weapons:

* Backstab = ???/??? (all can use it -if- flanking standard attack? e.g., the enemies can do it too making positioning* so much more important*)

* Sneak Attack = Rogue/Dagger

* Mind Stab = Cipher/Crystal

* Aim = Ranger/Bow

 

* Merged and said neanderthalic: Positioning important

Edited December 19, 2012 by Osvir

[HangedMan]

I would like for the option of a Throat Slit, which is exactly what it sounds like. Sneaky sneaky, get up behind someone... grab them around the head, hand over mouth, draw knife across throat, let them spray their blood all over the place before dropping the corpse like a sack of bricks.

I'd like to see a non-combat assassination feat. Using this a rogue (maybe some other classes too) could set up a situation and kill someone without it being traced back to them in a public (or at least not entirely private) situation - with the means of killing someone being entirely situational (poison in the drink, discretely fired dart with a fatal allergen on, etc.). This to me is preferable to a backstab, which is in a way a means to assassinate people but being combat orientated, and not really realistic; who could find a perfect spot on someone's back and keep their composure to deliver a killing blow every time - regardless of armour of any other factors? To me it's a nonsensical throwback.

Somebody trained to do exactly that. I mean, how can people keep their composure when they're killing multiple people in a short amount of time? Same thing, people who've trained to do it. Enough training, especially of the hands on variety, can make anything easy.

 

Then again, you do bring up a good point about armor. I think stuff like steel gorgets should stop my proposed Throat Slit, for instance. Maybe armor should offer varying degrees of sneak attack defense/protection? Or make sneak attacks do a lot more damage, but still subject to damage reduction from armor.

[Farbautisonn]

Today most elite units are trained in killing people in a second, Usually by severing the vertebrae of a human. SAS, DELTA, DEVGRU and other units have this expertize. A rogue/assassin type caracter would/should be able to do the same. Ofcourse this usually only works against the unsuspecting sentry or in extremely lucky close combat situations and It shouldnt be some spree where the rogue could kill 2 people plus in an instant. And if youre up against someone in plate, then it should be very hard. But then most assassins dont really aim to kill guards in plate. Their victims are usually softer targets such as diplomats, politicians, businessmen, people with low profile sentries or bodyguards watching their back. And you dont try to top someone in broad daylight infront of the palace guard. You do it when the mark is at his most vunerable.

 

Its a "feat" I wouldnt mind seeing in other classes. A Cypher should be able to cause massive haemmorage or strokes etc but It should be a discipline that would take significant focus. After all, even if your average high end tactical unit member is usually above averagely intelligent (and educated) he isnt a master of everything. He might be crosstrained in several fieldcrafts such as battlefield medicine, small arms, languages, humint etc but he would rarely have more than 3 areas of expertize and never more than four.

 

Throatslits btw are discouraged in most elite units. It makes a ****ing mess if you sever the arteries and you generally want to keep a sterile environment. Topping someone silently and disposing of the body is nice, but if there are bloodsplatters all over then the next person passing knows precisely what happend and sounds the alarm.

[Osvir]

Today most elite units are trained in killing people in a second, Usually by severing the vertebrae of a human. SAS, DELTA, DEVGRU and other units have this expertize. A rogue/assassin type caracter would/should be able to do the same. Ofcourse this usually only works against the unsuspecting sentry or in extremely lucky close combat situations and It shouldnt be some spree where the rogue could kill 2 people plus in an instant. And if youre up against someone in plate, then it should be very hard. But then most assassins dont really aim to kill guards in plate. Their victims are usually softer targets such as diplomats, politicians, businessmen, people with low profile sentries or bodyguards watching their back. And you dont try to top someone in broad daylight infront of the palace guard. You do it when the mark is at his most vunerable.

 

Its a "feat" I wouldnt mind seeing in other classes. A Cypher should be able to cause massive haemmorage or strokes etc but It should be a discipline that would take significant focus. After all, even if your average high end tactical unit member is usually above averagely intelligent (and educated) he isnt a master of everything. He might be crosstrained in several fieldcrafts such as battlefield medicine, small arms, languages, humint etc but he would rarely have more than 3 areas of expertize and never more than four.

 

Throatslits btw are discouraged in most elite units. It makes a ****ing mess if you sever the arteries and you generally want to keep a sterile environment. Topping someone silently and disposing of the body is nice, but if there are bloodsplatters all over then the next person passing knows precisely what happend and sounds the alarm.

 

Sorry. Interesting post, just, that caught my attention. With classes comes the distinction that it is a "way of life". Being a Rogue has little to do with assassination, and is part of a "training" process regardless if it is today or 1'000 years ago. Specific individuals undergoes the process, I'd say they are a minority. "Chosen Ones" in a military, those who undergoes Elite Training in the Military as Spies, Communicators, Infiltrators and Killers. Ninjas are more akin to a Thieves Guild more than being a village of assassins. In fact, a Ninja and an Assassin are two different things too.

 

Being an Assassin implies a "way of life", and a Rogue could do it as a Contract thing, but the Rogue could likewise imply that he is an Assassin, and land a D10 [sneak Attack] grab all gold in advance and not carry out the contract.

 

So if an Assassin is a profession, a way of life, wouldn't that imply that assassination is part of the job rather than a distinct "Rogue"-like behavior? This doesn't exclude that the Rogue could become* a sort of Contracted AssassinHitman through playing the game progressing the story/level up.

 

The nature of a Cipher's ability fit with what is called "PSI Ops" in many other games, in P:E it would be medieval PSI Ops. Fits for a trained infiltrator, as in being military disciplined, perhaps even starting on his/her own. Likewise, a Cipher could be a detective, an advisor etc. etc. the point is that Cipher fits the role as "Trained Killer" that "Assassin" is.

 

*by your choice

Edited December 19, 2012 by Osvir

[Farbautisonn]

Sorry. Interesting post, just, that caught my attention. With classes comes the distinction that it is a "way of life". Being a Rogue has little to do with assassination, and is part of a "training" process regardless if it is today or 1'000 years ago. Specific individuals undergoes the process, I'd say they are a minority. "Chosen Ones" in a military, those who undergoes Elite Training in the Military as Spies, Communicators, Infiltrators and Killers. Ninjas are more akin to a Thieves Guild more than being a village of assassins. In fact, a Ninja and an Assassin are two different things too.

I agree. An "Assassin" type ability is one that could have several backgrounds, but also one that would have highly specialized training. And without having too much knowledge of a "ninja" society then I would suspect that it would be a clan'esque thives guild where individuals might have recieved such highly specialized training but where others focused on intelligence gathering, cutpursing, forgeries etc.

 

Being an Assassin implies a "way of life", and a Rogue could do it as a Contract thing, but the Rogue could likewise imply that he is an Assassin, and land a D10 [sneak Attack] and grab some gold and not carry out the contract.

Ofcourse, but I do not see the point of accepting a contract and then not carrying it out. You would then likely become a mark yourself, and then the next person coming after you could very well be an individual with a singular skillset such as that of an assassin.

 

So if an Assassin is a profession, a way of life, wouldn't that imply that assassination is part of the job rather than a distinct "Rogue"-like behavior? This doesn't exclude that the Rogue could become* a sort of Contracted AssassinHitman through playing the game.

Rogues usually gravitate toward the morally gray. They usually come from a lower and likely more brutal sociocultural setting. Murder either covert or overty would likely be part and parcel of the social background.

 

Whilst politicians, bureaucrats and blue blood generally have been very good clients with assassins, the assassins themselves have usually not been part of those classes, those backgrounds. Assassination isnt nessesarily a part of the job. Killing silently and effectively might be, but that isnt nessesarily the same as knowing precisely where to stab and slice or what herbs and tools to use to get an instant or innocently looking kill. It would be a "specialization".

 

The nature of a Cipher's ability fit with what is called "PSI Ops" in many other games, in P:E it would be medieval PSI Ops. Fits for a trained infiltrator, as in being military disciplined, perhaps even starting on his/her own. Likewise, a Cipher could be a detective, an advisor etc. etc. the point is that Cipher fits the role as "Trained Killer" that "Assassin" is.

 

*Important

Quite true. But whilst an "assassination talent" or "feat" shouldnt be restricted to a certain class, it would likely have both sociocultural class and/or status background because generally assassins would be exposed to that kind of training only in a few places, namely those that are dark and certainly those that are secretive. A cipher might be excellently skilled at causing "natural death" but his skillset seems more focused toward gaining intelligence by reading the mind and surface thoughts of a person. That would make him valuable as an advisor or a machiavellian type councillor. More valuable it would seem to me.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Farbautisonn

[Osvir]

Great post and thank you, Farbautisonn. Maybe wo different Assassin like factions?

 

One more suburb, more slummy and deep darkness lies at the depth of it, shadows of the conspiracy. Rogue-Assassin or Rogue-Thief.

 

Military Disciplined Institution, the Elite Guard and trained Infiltrators and Spies. Ciphers-Assassin or Cipher-Magic.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Osvir