Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Thoughts on Experience

quest experience objective character player spiritualism

  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#1
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
I've had some thoughts on experience (most of it gathered up in my wall of text in my signature though) and how I view experience.

I am slightly concerned about P:E (as thus far revealed) being tied to Objective Based experience. I like it a lot, but I'm also scratching my head about it; "Are there more ways to improve it?". Now I don't realize to what extent this is going to be implemented and "How", merely just discussing and sharing some thoughts on what I see could be an issue.. to the point:

Being rewarded after getting from point A to point G. I experience a lot during the journey between A and G (B, C, D, E, F), but I will only be rewarded at G, when I have fully completed the objective. Which to me feels more like a "temp-work" kind of dealio. I contracted this job and I will only be paid at the end of it.

That is what concerns me. My character going through the dungeon, facing enemies, solving mysteries and riddles, finding books, items and equipment making my character slightly stronger, but won't level up until I have finished the dungeon and returned to the surface.

I view the "Objective/Quest Experience" as "Character/Player Experience", or even "Spiritual Experience". Life Experience. Insight Experience and so on. I would like to see the Character Experience and the Combat Experience differ, being two different experience tables. What your character does in the world, in terms of quests and objectives, makes your character grow in knowledge, in reputation (how the world sees you), in insight, understanding of the world, exploration and so on. Your character becomes more devoted into their Class, their way of life, as they explore the world. All "Character Experience". It doesn't define any "Physical Aspects" but only the "Mental Aspects".

Knowing in theory how to swing a sword will make it easier for you to understand how to swing a sword, but will you swing a sword better because of it if you've never swung a sword before? No. You're going to be a noob like everyone else, you might be a better noob or a worse noob, the point is that you are still going to be a noob with that sword. You might learn faster, or you might learn slower depending on pre-knowledge and research.

The concern I have is exactly that, with a Quest based Experience system the issue could become that my character is suddenly a Master Swordsman, regardless of Class. "Poof" like a magical smoke out of nowhere.

Drawing a parallel to Baldur's Gate:
Baldur's Gate has both, that both defines Character Experience and Combat Experience. It is one pool. What I am suggesting is splitting up the character in 2, but keep the way experience is gained like the IE games.

BG: Quest+Combat = Leveling up 1 Experience Pool.

The proposal/Suggestion:
Quest = Levels up the Character/Class
Combat = Levels up Combat skills

--------------
Conceptual (Numbers are conceptual as well):
In the IE games you take down an enemy to get 15 Experience. Your character has now 15/1000 experience to level up. As proposed, you'd still be at 0/500 experience to level up your character, but have 15/500 on combat aspects.

Experience Graph
IE:
15/1000 Experience

Proposal:
15/500 Combat Exp
0/500 Character Exp

P:E (as far I know it):
N/A Combat Exp

--------------
Likewise, in the IE games, finishing a Quest in those games you get perhaps 450 Experience, adding up with the pool of defeating monsters you would be at 465/1000 Experience to level, whilst as proposed you would have 450/500 experience to level up your Class, and 15/500 experience to level up your weapon.

Experience Graph
IE:
465/1000 Experience

Proposal:
15/500 Combat Exp
450/500 Character Exp

P:E (as far as I know it)
N/A Combat Exp
450/1000

--------------
Perhaps the level of the Character could decide (accordingly) how fast your Combat experience grows. If you have a Level 4 Sword Experience and a Level 8 Fighter, but you want to play with a Mace instead (and it's level 1), the Mace could grow at x2-x3 times experience up to a certain point (so that Bandit that gave 15 experience is instead giving 30-45 experience). Just to make you be able to catch up with another weapon and specialize in more than one combat aspect.

How does this balance the game? More importantly, how does this balance the classes?

Your Rogue can be a level 5 Rogue, with specialized Combat making your Rogue a more adept sneaky bastard or a straight out close-combat martial artist. It could even make your level 5 Rogue an Adept in Magic, a Rogzard (Rogue/Wizard). Your Fighter would become a level 5 Fighter, but not at all specialized in close combat, or just so. Perhaps being an excellent tank, or a weak magical buffer. Or heck, even your level 5 Fighter is a Fighter but roleplayingly he could be seen as a Level 5 Paladin Trainee (due to his combat prowess and direction you chose to upgrade/level him).

Edited by Osvir, 14 December 2012 - 06:08 AM.

  • Wirdjos likes this

#2
Sharp_one

Sharp_one

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 783 posts
  • Location:Poland
It was explained before, there are different objectives big and small. If you have a quest like: venturing the dungeon, you will get exp after finishing it, but inside the dungeon you will get other exp for things you do in the dungeon.

Edited by Sharp_one, 14 December 2012 - 05:45 AM.

  • Wirdjos, Osvir and jivex5k like this

#3
DreamDancer

DreamDancer

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 43 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
I think this is an interesting proposal and kinda ties in with their seperation of combat and non-combat skills. In a typical game where you have just one pool you can indeed do a lot of side quests and/or main quests that involve mostly leg work or social skills and gain 1 or 2 levels, then spend all points in a fighting skill and suddenly youre a veteran fighter without having drawn your weapon once.

I admit, I have always hoped for a seperation of social exp and combat exp, social in this case meaning everything from quest objective exp, to solving puzzles and succeeding in dialogue skill checks. With a system like this it would also finally pay off to be more of a diplomat and focus on social exp and skills.

#4
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

It was explained before, there are different objectives big and small. If you have a quest like: venturing the dungeon, you will get exp after finishing it, but inside the dungeon you will get other exp for things you do in the dungeon.


Alright cool. Does this only apply to the dungeon within the dungeon? (The game itself is a "dungeon", metaphorically speaking)

Does it apply to world map traveling as well, "Surface" exploring. In cities or whatnot, or is this "In-Dungeon" experience only for "In-Dungeon"?

#5
Gfted1

Gfted1

    Forum Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 5953 posts
  • Location:Chicago, IL
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
Havent they stated in yet another mechanical revision (to prevent people from farming experience :rolleyes:) that gaining experience from killing mooks is out? With that in mind it seems you will always have to complete <x> before gaining experience.

#6
Osvir

Osvir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3799 posts
  • Location:Stockholm, SE
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
^And that is exactly my concern.

#7
jivex5k

jivex5k

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 462 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
I think there will be enough small objectives to keep your party in line with enemies.
Getting XP is satisfying.
Learning new abilities and getting better stats is fun.
I doubt they will make XP scarce.

Edited by jivex5k, 14 December 2012 - 09:04 AM.


#8
Rabain

Rabain

    Knight Hospitaller of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 321 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
This is more about how they do it than how often they do it. I don't really want XP every 5 seconds for "walking around a corner" or "picking up a weapon" etc. I want my XP to be meaningful and yes XP for kills is meaningful, I killed something, I have improved in my ability to kill, eventually that will be reflected by levelling up and having points to spend or stats to boost or whatever.

What I don't want is some ambiguous reward that I'm not sure why I got it. For example if I have a quest to kill the evil mage do I get the XP when I kill the mage or when I hand the quest in? Or do I get some XP for both? Will the quest auto-complete when the mage is dead and I get XP for that objective...that would be bad from my point of view, immersion breaking.

All I want from this system is for my actions to feel rewarding and for the rewards to not be arbitrarily handed out based on some ambiguous formula I have no clue about. If I can sneak past a group of enemies or kill them I think it would be bad if I killed them all and then only got XP after crossing some imaginary line on the ground that defines the point where XP is handed out if you had of sneaked past instead.

The only downside I can see to Osvirs Combat XP separation is that players who want to play a more stealthy, sneaky or diplomatic character could be gimped in combat later in the game because of their choice of how they play. And lets face it, eventually you will be forced into combat no matter how you play.
  • Wirdjos likes this

#9
Sharp_one

Sharp_one

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 783 posts
  • Location:Poland

It was explained before, there are different objectives big and small. If you have a quest like: venturing the dungeon, you will get exp after finishing it, but inside the dungeon you will get other exp for things you do in the dungeon.


Alright cool. Does this only apply to the dungeon within the dungeon? (The game itself is a "dungeon", metaphorically speaking)

Does it apply to world map traveling as well, "Surface" exploring. In cities or whatnot, or is this "In-Dungeon" experience only for "In-Dungeon"?


Yes it apply to whole game. For example if there is some dragon wandering in the mountains killing such creature will be rewarded. Killing a room full of one hit mooks will be awarded when you go through the room (by killing them or sneaking past them) not by every single mook there. Effectively excludes the sneak past, go back to kill for exp scenario.

Edited by Sharp_one, 14 December 2012 - 10:51 AM.

  • Wirdjos likes this

#10
Gfted1

Gfted1

    Forum Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 5953 posts
  • Location:Chicago, IL
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
^But why is that even an issue? Unless youre soloing the game or playing an entire party of rogues, you wont be able to sneak the whole party through a room anyway. So you sneak your rogue through and then what? The unsneaky party members will have to kill their way through. Am I missing something here? Is this entire mechanic to prevent the player from sneaking one guy throught the room and getting experience for that but when the rest of the group kills their way through they dont want you to "double dip" on experience? Realistically, how often does that happen that you have ro remake an entire mechanic?
  • Wirdjos likes this

#11
Sharp_one

Sharp_one

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 783 posts
  • Location:Poland
^ maybe you don't have to get the whole party through the room. Maybe you only need to sent the rogue to snatch an item and get back. And how can you know you wouldn't be able to sneak past with party of mage, barbarian, fighter, cleric and ranger? Do you know the mechanics? Please share if you do. Invisibility potions, spells, items, so on their name is Legion.
And what do you mean by remake? This is the first game in the (probably) series and this is how Obsidian plans to make the experience mechanics. They are not remaking anything they making it this way. And it's not the only reason there is whole topic about it I'm not going to rewrite it here.
And this was BTW type of comment the point of my post was to show there are experience rewarding for small achievements not only at the end of a quest.
  • Wirdjos likes this

#12
Gfted1

Gfted1

    Forum Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 5953 posts
  • Location:Chicago, IL
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

^ maybe you don't have to get the whole party through the room. Maybe you only need to sent the rogue to snatch an item and get back. And how can you know you wouldn't be able to sneak past with party of mage, barbarian, fighter, cleric and ranger? Do you know the mechanics? Please share if you do. Invisibility potions, spells, items, so on their name is Legion.


C'mon, were just people chatting, you dont have to get your Sawyer Defence Mode all riled up. We can simply use common sense to determine that EVERY class isnt going to have an ability to sneak.

And what do you mean by remake? This is the first game in the (probably) series and this is how Obsidian plans to make the experience mechanics. They are not remaking anything they making it this way.


Remake as in completely and utterly the exact opposite of every IE game ever made. You know, the inspiration to PE.

#13
Sharp_one

Sharp_one

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 783 posts
  • Location:Poland

^ maybe you don't have to get the whole party through the room. Maybe you only need to sent the rogue to snatch an item and get back. And how can you know you wouldn't be able to sneak past with party of mage, barbarian, fighter, cleric and ranger? Do you know the mechanics? Please share if you do. Invisibility potions, spells, items, so on their name is Legion.


C'mon, were just people chatting, you dont have to get your Sawyer Defence Mode all riled up. We can simply use common sense to determine that EVERY class isnt going to have an ability to sneak.


Unlike IWD2 where you couldn't learn sneak related abilities with every class...or could you? As I said you could use invisibility items or spells possibilities are limited only by game design and creativity of the developers and players.
What mode are you talking about? I simply reply to your post, people tend to do that you know, on forums.

And what do you mean by remake? This is the first game in the (probably) series and this is how Obsidian plans to make the experience mechanics. They are not remaking anything they making it this way.


Remake as in completely and utterly the exact opposite of every IE game ever made. You know, the inspiration to PE.


How excluding experience awards from killing is making "completely and utterly exact opposite" of mechanics is beyond me.
Obsidian doesn't have the rights to DnD so the mechanics cannot be the same and this was clear from the beginning that they cannot use the exact same mechanics. So they are making mechanics by themselves so there is no remaking there is making. People should pay attention to the language they are using.
Also taking inspiration and copying are two different things.

Edited by Sharp_one, 14 December 2012 - 12:38 PM.


#14
Gfted1

Gfted1

    Forum Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 5953 posts
  • Location:Chicago, IL
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
Wait a minute, are you implying that gaining experience for kills is owned by Hasbro? People should pay attention when trying to be smarty pantses.

This game was sold as being the spiritual successor to the IE series. As far as I can tell that was complete marketspeak as the only thing that seems to have carried over is the isometric perspective.

#15
Sharp_one

Sharp_one

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 783 posts
  • Location:Poland

Wait a minute, are you implying that gaining experience for kills is owned by Hasbro? People should pay attention when trying to be smarty pantses.


Where exactly did I imply it? Don't get Obama on me because you lack of arguments and try to put words in my mouth that I didn't say.

This game was sold as being the spiritual successor to the IE series. As far as I can tell that was complete marketspeak as the only thing that seems to have carried over is the isometric perspective.


That's a bull**** statement. Read what spiritual successor means. For now the objective based experience rewards are the only difference Obsidian plan to made.
  • PrimeJunta likes this

#16
Gfted1

Gfted1

    Forum Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 5953 posts
  • Location:Chicago, IL
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Where exactly did I imply it? Don't get Obama on me because you lack of arguments and try to put words in my mouth that I didn't say.


Um, right here, two posts up:

How excluding experience awards from killing is making "completely and utterly exact opposite" of mechanics is beyond me.
Obsidian doesn't have the rights to DnD so the mechanics cannot be the same and this was clear from the beginning that they cannot use the exact same mechanics.


Are you even paying attention to your own posts? If youre just trollin the day away, thats fine, just dont waste my time. Also, whats "dont get Obama" mean?

That's a bull**** statement. Read what spiritual successor means. For now the objective based experience rewards are the only difference Obsidian plan to made.


Project Eternitywill take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.


Every rpg offers a "hero", "companions" and "exploration". By invoking the IE name they new exactly how that would be taken by the consumers. Throwing every single mechanic those games offered out the window all in the name of saving the player from "degenerately" playing their single player game is the true bull****.

#17
maggotheart

maggotheart

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 201 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
I think this overcomplicates the system, especially when we will already have separate progression for combat vs non combat skills. It's true that from a realism standpoint, it doesn't make much sense that my combat skills would progress when I have been solving objectives using my non-combat skills, but personally I would rather have a streamlined system (one XP pool) than an overly realistic one.

From reading the interviews, it sounds like the goal will be for every class to be viable in combat and non-combat, which will allow the player to decide how he wants to solve an encounter: in whichever way seems the most fun and rewarding that is within the capability of the character. Splitting the XP pools seems like I would then be forced to consider which aspect of my character I want to progress when faced with each encounter, rather than simply using what skills I have however I want to use them and then making those decisions on levelup. I'd rather not inject metagaming into every single encounter. The new system seems to just want to eliminate grinding, which is fine by me, and if they add in enough sidequests, the party could be fully realized without ever feeling the need to just go slay random mobs for XP.
  • Sharp_one and Wirdjos like this

#18
Sharp_one

Sharp_one

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 783 posts
  • Location:Poland

Where exactly did I imply it? Don't get Obama on me because you lack of arguments and try to put words in my mouth that I didn't say.


Um, right here, two posts up:

How excluding experience awards from killing is making "completely and utterly exact opposite" of mechanics is beyond me.
Obsidian doesn't have the rights to DnD so the mechanics cannot be the same and this was clear from the beginning that they cannot use the exact same mechanics.


Are you even paying attention to your own posts? If youre just trollin the day away, thats fine, just dont waste my time. Also, whats "dont get Obama" mean?


The only person trolling here is you. You don't have arguments so you accusing me of something I didn't say. I said that they cannot use the DnD mechanics, so wanting exact same mechanic as IE game is pointless. I also said that removing one minor important feature is not by any sane means making the mechanics "completely and utterly exact opposite". Where did you find the "Hasbro owns exp for kills" statement is beyond me, I don't know what pills are you taking but you should cut the amounts in half.

That's a bull**** statement. Read what spiritual successor means. For now the objective based experience rewards are the only difference Obsidian plan to made.


Project Eternitywill take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.


Every rpg offers a "hero", "companions" and "exploration". By invoking the IE name they new exactly how that would be taken by the consumers. Throwing every single mechanic those games offered out the window all in the name of saving the player from "degenerately" playing their single player game is the true bull****.


You deliberately took away the adjectives for those features, again playing Obama to twist the truth and hide your own incompetence? That's one. Two, I don't see nothing about "exact the same mechanics" in Obsidian statement. Three, the reasons for objective based experience are plenty and explained in details in other topics. Last, I didn't know that "one" and "every single one" became synonyms, since when?

#19
Gfted1

Gfted1

    Forum Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 5953 posts
  • Location:Chicago, IL
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

The only person trolling here is you. You don't have arguments so you accusing me of something I didn't say. I said that they cannot use the DnD mechanics, so wanting exact same mechanic as IE game is pointless. I also said that removing one minor important feature is not by any sane means making the mechanics "completely and utterly exact opposite". Where did you find the "Hasbro owns exp for kills" statement is beyond me, I don't know what pills are you taking but you should cut the amounts in half.


Pay attention simpleton. Kill experience is not a DnD mechanic. Anyone can use it.

You deliberately took away the adjectives for those features, again playing Obama to twist the truth and hide your own incompetence? That's one. Two, I don't see nothing about "exact the same mechanics" in Obsidian statement. Three, the reasons for objective based experience are plenty and explained in details in other topics. Last, I didn't know that "one" and "every single one" became synonyms, since when?


I see, you have some axe to grind with Obama. Hilarios, and sad.

Of course nobody said "exact same mechanics". None of the mechaincs Im talking about are exclusive to DnD. Anyone can use resting, experience points, saving, healing, etc... It is inferred by invoking the IE name that PE would be similar, which daily is being proven to not be the case. Honestly, youve never played an IE game have you?

#20
rjshae

rjshae

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 5075 posts
  • Location:Seattle, WA
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Havent they stated in yet another mechanical revision (to prevent people from farming experience :rolleyes:) that gaining experience from killing mooks is out? With that in mind it seems you will always have to complete <x> before gaining experience.

Instead of XP for killing x creatures, it might be enjoyable to have a combat accomplishment system. Maybe an entire integrated tree of combat accomplishments. You might not rise any higher in level, but, if you, say, kill off a large number of orcs, you could get unique benefits as a result of that Orc Slayer accomplishment. Perhaps a bonus to cause critical damage when attacking orcs, or a bonus to defense when defending against multiple orcs. That in itself is a type of XP gain, almost like a bonus Ranger feat for a favored enemy.
  • maggotheart and Wirdjos like this





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: quest, experience, objective, character, player, spiritualism

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users