Sexism?

[Dream]

I don't see where I derailed your thread

That may be because you're still doing it...

 

I've been replying to your statements, not the other way around. You can't start a discussion, steer it one way and then accuse people of hijacking it when the direction you chose to go blows up in your face.

So the fact that Muslims are present in a country is reason enough to attribute bad things that happen in that country to Muslims? Damn, talk about racism. Search acid throwing victim on google images and look at how many are wearing traditionally Hindu garb (hint: those that are aren't Muslims). Also the people you were responding didn't drop it; if anything they got tired of you shouting at them and decided to ignore you (imagine that).

Muslim is a race?

 

That's really all you got out of what I said? What happened to "wanting to learn new things?" Besides that, read the key phrases for this article (Journal of Sociology). I suppose I could have used the term Islamophobia, but I was pretty confident even you would understand me (shows what I know).

[jezz555]

 

I've been replying to your statements, not the other way around. You can't start a discussion, steer it one way and then accuse people of hijacking it when the direction you chose to go blows up in your face.

 

You're right my bad. Let's steer it back now please.

 

 

 

Sorry Jezz, I just gotta post one more thing.

 

http://afghanistanon...s-part-two.html

 

Did those Women look oppressed to you? Because Afghanistan, even in the 60's and 70's, was still very much a Muslim country.

 

Dude seriously. It was my fault for engaging you in the first place, but this is a computer-game forum.

Edited December 5, 2012 by jezz555

[Dream]

I'm sorry for derailing the topic, but I just felt all this needed to be said.

 

Okay, Let's just agree to disagree at this point it's pretty clear I'm not going to convince you of anything, and this isn't the focus of the thread anyway...so back on track.

 

Agree to disagree about what? You being a racist ****?

 

You're right my bad. Let's steer it back now please.

 

Steer it back to what? You're blatantly being racist and you want to have a discussion about how this video game should discriminate against women? Seriously?

Edited December 5, 2012 by Dream

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Well this thread turned out well.

[Malekith]

You clearly disagree here, so let's hear your case.

Well, personally, I want P:E to be a fun video game and not the next champion of the "games are art" crowd; leave that **** to pretentious indie developer douche bags like Jonathan Blow.

 

Why not both? P::T was the closest example of video games are art i can think of but it was still a fun game

[Dream]

You clearly disagree here, so let's hear your case.

Well, personally, I want P:E to be a fun video game and not the next champion of the "games are art" crowd; leave that **** to pretentious indie developer douche bags like Jonathan Blow.

 

Why not both? P::T was the closest example of video games are art i can think of but it was still a fun game

 

Nothing wrong with being both, but don't go include "dark and edgy" subject matter just to make the game more "real". However, if the story happens to call for it then go big.

[NoxNoctum]

This thread is going the way I thought it would. Just like the last two relating to gender equality, tropes and women and/or sexism this one is fast heading for lock as they did. This is why people should just leave it to Obsidian to decide when and how to create the content for such aspects not meta them on forums, as that just creates conflict between individuals due to the nature of touching on real world issues without context of what will be present/planned in/for the game in first place by the developers.

 

Chris and the rest on the development team are very smart, very knowledgable and very creative. Just leave it upto them. Such aspects are in safe hands and should remain in theirs not ours on these kind of issues to prevent unfounded bickering based on no knowledge of their (developer) content plans for such topics/aspects within the game. I would rather leave feedback on what they decided to do post release when played it regarding these issues rather than assume they are clueless or unintelligent, unable to handle it themselves adequately. I think such topics show a sign of lack of trust or respect in the development teams ability when people decide to create such topics especially on the (isms) of this world, but thats just my perception.

 

+1. I regret posting in this thread, wish I could delete it. Oh well. It's there for all eternity now

Edited December 5, 2012 by NoxNoctum

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Sorry Jezz, I just gotta post one more thing.

 

http://afghanistanon...s-part-two.html

 

Did those Women look oppressed to you? Because Afghanistan, even in the 60's and 70's, was still very much a Muslim country.

 

Look up "Effects of Soviet Invasion on Afghanistan". It was that little thing that helped the Taliban rise and turn a modern and liberal country into a backwater ****hole where religious extremists rule, kind of like Alabama.

[Dream]

Sorry Jezz, I just gotta post one more thing.

 

http://afghanistanon...s-part-two.html

 

Did those Women look oppressed to you? Because Afghanistan, even in the 60's and 70's, was still very much a Muslim country.

 

Look up "Effects of Soviet Invasion on Afghanistan". It was that little thing that helped the Taliban rise and turn a modern and liberal country into a backwater ****hole where religious extremists rule, kind of like Alabama.

 

That was the point; being Muslim does not automatically equate to oppressing women. The oppression comes from general misogyny (dressed up in this case as religious extremism). The Taliban have no more in common with everyday Muslims than the Branch Davidians did with Christians from the suburbs.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

That was the point; being Muslim does not automatically equate to oppressing women. The oppression comes from general misogyny (dressed up in this case as religious extremism). The Taliban have no more in common with everyday Muslims than the Branch Davidians did with Christians from the suburbs.

 

Except that Branch Davidians are not in positions of power. Extremist Muslims are in power in quite a few Muslim countries.

[Dream]

That was the point; being Muslim does not automatically equate to oppressing women. The oppression comes from general misogyny (dressed up in this case as religious extremism). The Taliban have no more in common with everyday Muslims than the Branch Davidians did with Christians from the suburbs.

 

Except that Branch Davidians are not in positions of power. Extremist Muslims are in power in quite a few Muslim countries.

 

Which means all Muslims are terrorists that want to hurl acid at women? Those in power are very rarely the same as the populations which they lord over.

[sparklecat]

This thread is going the way I thought it would. Just like the last two relating to gender equality, tropes and women and/or sexism this one is fast heading for lock as they did. This is why people should just leave it to Obsidian to decide when and how to create the content for such aspects not meta them on forums, as that just creates conflict between individuals due to the nature of touching on real world issues without context of what will be present/planned in/for the game in first place by the developers.

 

Chris and the rest on the development team are very smart, very knowledgable and very creative. Just leave it upto them. Such aspects are in safe hands and should remain in theirs not ours on these kind of issues to prevent unfounded bickering based on no knowledge of their (developer) content plans for such topics/aspects within the game. I would rather leave feedback on what they decided to do post release when played it regarding these issues rather than assume they are clueless or unintelligent, unable to handle it themselves adequately. I think such topics show a sign of lack of trust or respect in the development teams ability when people decide to create such topics especially on the (isms) of this world, but thats just my perception.

 

Possibly because on my part at least, there is such a lack of trust. I'm not happy to just automatically assume that the handling of gender issues is in safe hands when all those hands I'm aware of thus far are male.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Which means all Muslims are terrorists that want to hurl acid at women? Those in power are very rarely the same as the populations which they lord over.

 

No. It means that in certain countries that are majority Muslim, sexism is institutionalized and accepted by the general population to some degree.

 

Some cultures are inherently sexist, jingoistic, racist, and prejudiced. Just look at Japan, Southern United States, or Fundamentalist Islam. Which is how sexism should be handled in PE, where certain cultures(Not all of them) will see the sexes as unequal because of X. We already know that there will be different cultures and regions, so it would be very plausible for one to be sexist, jingoistic, racist, etc.

Edited December 5, 2012 by KaineParker

[Dragoonlordz]

This thread is going the way I thought it would. Just like the last two relating to gender equality, tropes and women and/or sexism this one is fast heading for lock as they did. This is why people should just leave it to Obsidian to decide when and how to create the content for such aspects not meta them on forums, as that just creates conflict between individuals due to the nature of touching on real world issues without context of what will be present/planned in/for the game in first place by the developers.

 

Chris and the rest on the development team are very smart, very knowledgable and very creative. Just leave it upto them. Such aspects are in safe hands and should remain in theirs not ours on these kind of issues to prevent unfounded bickering based on no knowledge of their (developer) content plans for such topics/aspects within the game. I would rather leave feedback on what they decided to do post release when played it regarding these issues rather than assume they are clueless or unintelligent, unable to handle it themselves adequately. I think such topics show a sign of lack of trust or respect in the development teams ability when people decide to create such topics especially on the (isms) of this world, but thats just my perception.

 

Possibly because on my part at least, there is such a lack of trust. I'm not happy to just automatically assume that the handling of gender issues is in safe hands when all those hands I'm aware of thus far are male.

 

It can also be sexist to assume just because males might handle such a topic, that they cannot do it well. In fact though the reality is the team making this title is not comprised of all men in the first place. It is okay to want members of both sexes on the team for better perspective but it is not right to assume lack of one or the other would indicate a product would be flawed on gender issues. Like I said though, the point is moot as the team comprises of both genders.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[sparklecat]

This thread is going the way I thought it would. Just like the last two relating to gender equality, tropes and women and/or sexism this one is fast heading for lock as they did. This is why people should just leave it to Obsidian to decide when and how to create the content for such aspects not meta them on forums, as that just creates conflict between individuals due to the nature of touching on real world issues without context of what will be present/planned in/for the game in first place by the developers.

 

Chris and the rest on the development team are very smart, very knowledgable and very creative. Just leave it upto them. Such aspects are in safe hands and should remain in theirs not ours on these kind of issues to prevent unfounded bickering based on no knowledge of their (developer) content plans for such topics/aspects within the game. I would rather leave feedback on what they decided to do post release when played it regarding these issues rather than assume they are clueless or unintelligent, unable to handle it themselves adequately. I think such topics show a sign of lack of trust or respect in the development teams ability when people decide to create such topics especially on the (isms) of this world, but thats just my perception.

 

Possibly because on my part at least, there is such a lack of trust. I'm not happy to just automatically assume that the handling of gender issues is in safe hands when all those hands I'm aware of thus far are male.

 

It can also be sexist to assume just because males might handle such a topic, that they cannot do it well. In fact though the reality is the team making this title is not comprised of all men in the first place. It is okay to want members of both sexes on the team for better perspective but it is not right to assume lack of one or the other would indicate a product would be flawed on gender issues. Like I said though, the point is moot as the team comprises of both genders.

 

There is a difference between assuming they cannot do it well and not automatically trusting they will do it well; my point is that this discussion is entirely appropriate for us to be having. And I'm actually less interested in whether there's >0 women on the team than what sort of proportions exist and what positions they hold, in terms of whether I would feel comfortable provisionally trusting that their handling of the topic would take into account women's experiences of playing games and how they perceive sexism therein.

[Dragoonlordz]

There is a difference between assuming they cannot do it well and not automatically trusting they will do it well; my point is that this discussion is entirely appropriate for us to be having. And I'm actually less interested in whether there's >0 women on the team than what sort of proportions exist and what positions they hold, in terms of whether I would feel comfortable provisionally trusting that their handling of the topic would take into account women's experiences of playing games and how they perceive sexism therein.

 

Then indeed you are being sexist. A man or woman should be treated equally for gender equality to work, you do not view or treat them as equals and express such in your own words. You want a woman making the decision is no better than someone demanding a man makes it. Either can make it but it becomes sexist when you believe one or the other cannot or should not based on their gender.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[sparklecat]

There is a difference between assuming they cannot do it well and not automatically trusting they will do it well; my point is that this discussion is entirely appropriate for us to be having. And I'm actually less interested in whether there's >0 women on the team than what sort of proportions exist and what positions they hold, in terms of whether I would feel comfortable provisionally trusting that their handling of the topic would take into account women's experiences of playing games and how they perceive sexism therein.

 

Then indeed you are being sexist. A man or woman should be treated equally for gender equality to work, you do not view or treat them as equals and express such in your own words. You want a woman making the decision is no better than someone demanding a man makes it. Either can make it but it becomes sexist when you believe one or the other cannot based on their gender.

 

I'll be happy to take this discussion up with you again at a later date if you ever decide you feel like actually reading what I've written.

[Dragoonlordz]

There is a difference between assuming they cannot do it well and not automatically trusting they will do it well; my point is that this discussion is entirely appropriate for us to be having. And I'm actually less interested in whether there's >0 women on the team than what sort of proportions exist and what positions they hold, in terms of whether I would feel comfortable provisionally trusting that their handling of the topic would take into account women's experiences of playing games and how they perceive sexism therein.

 

Then indeed you are being sexist. A man or woman should be treated equally for gender equality to work, you do not view or treat them as equals and express such in your own words. You want a woman making the decision is no better than someone demanding a man makes it. Either can make it but it becomes sexist when you believe one or the other cannot based on their gender.

 

I'll be happy to take this discussion up with you again at a later date if you ever decide you feel like actually reading what I've written.

 

You express in first post you do not trust them because you believed they were all male, I corrected that in informing you that was not the case. Your second response that you do not care much how many (if any) there was females on the team, that what matters to you is how experienced those 'females' are, what positions those women hold and whether their views are inline with your own on gender equality and sexism. There is conflict of expression within your statements.

 

Why should it matter if that was the case whether was only males in the team in the first place when what you later claimed was whether or not their views matched your own. It is sexist because you implied they also had to be female. If they have to be female and match your beliefs on gender equality then that is sexist, if they can be female or male and match your beliefs on gender equality then that is mere preference. Your comment about what position they held relating to the 'females only' is sexist as implies no male in that position is adequate for you. It comes down to the fact your three mentioned prerequisites for trust...firstly they must be female secondly they have to be in certain position of authority and thirdly that their view matched yours on gender equality. Need I remind you that clearly you said do not trust them because thought were all male. Put it this way if I am misinterpreting your stance it is only because your misrepresenting your own views.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[Mandragore]

It "helps" for a female fighter to look like a man because, what, female fighters shouldn't look feminine?

 

Also I did not realize that, you live in the future. I mean how else would you know about all the light weight alloys they may have or all the advances in muscle therapy they may have developed. Yea..... (A sword made of modern low density high strength alloys would be light as **** compared to medieval weapons by the way).

 

I'm sorry, but how does this keep sailing over your head? Its not just an issue of appearance. The issue is STRENGTH. When you are physically strong its visible. Don't you think your "muscle therapy" would actually... you know, give someone muscles? Buffy's strength is still ridiculous IMO because the magic that gives it to her just makes her stronger, it doesn't make her muscles expand or anything. I gave Valeria and Red Sonja as examples of female warriors who look the part; neither one is bulging with meat, but they're both tall, athletic and have long reach, in other words they look like they could handle themselves in a fight and carry their weapons without fainting.

 

Thats all I have to say on it. You're entitled to your, admittedly terrible, taste; I'm entitled to mine.

 

Except India is one of the biggest offenders of such attacks and there the overwhelming majority is Hindu. But I guess you probably never claimed to be an expert at that either, rig

There are muslims in India...also why are you still on this? The people I was responding to dropped it, lets follow their example.

 

So the fact that Muslims are present in a country is reason enough to attribute bad things that happen in that country to Muslims? Damn, talk about racism. Search acid throwing victim on google images and look at how many are wearing traditionally Hindu garb (hint: those that are aren't Muslims). Also the people you were responding didn't drop it; if anything they got tired of you shouting at them and decided to ignore you (imagine that).

 

Way to completely miss the point. The issue is not that there just happen to be Muslims in India, Malaysia or the UK, its that THEY'RE THEY ONES THROWING THE ACID.

 

Add to that the fact that you have no ****ing clue what "racism" is. Islam is not a race. Arabs are a race. Do you understand the distinction? When I point out that the Quaran mandates draconian punishment, beating of women, apostate killing and sets market prices for slaves I'm not being RACIST against Arabs I'm merely CRITICIZING Islam. You have no idea the cultural, legal and physical pressures brought to bear on women who forced to wear the Hijab in countries with theocracies or salafist regimes. Kindly take you misinformed post-modernist bull**** elsewhere. (Saudi Arabia maybe?)

[Grrul]

Realistic and unrealistic.. come on people.. this is going to be a pure fantasy game.. Stop basing so much on realisting.. and I am not even sure how accuarate some of this information.. Pure fantasy is very open to anything that isn't common sence. Uncommon sence.. something that isn't based on facts or "normal" logic if there is a such thing... that is why I am interested in fantasy in a first place. TT

[alanschu]

I'm sorry, but how does this keep sailing over your head? Its not just an issue of appearance. The issue is STRENGTH. When you are physically strong its visible. Don't you think your "muscle therapy" would actually... you know, give someone muscles? Buffy's strength is still ridiculous IMO because the magic that gives it to her just makes her stronger, it doesn't make her muscles expand or anything. I gave Valeria and Red Sonja as examples of female warriors who look the part; neither one is bulging with meat, but they're both tall, athletic and have long reach, in other words they look like they could handle themselves in a fight and carry their weapons without fainting.

 

First, the weight of medieval weapons (and armor) is grossly overstated, and even then fails to take into account weapon balance. Speed is so valuable in a melee fight. Men would definitely still typically have an advantage in the speed of their blade and their stamina due to physical characteristics, but women wouldn't have issues with fainting while in a fight.

 

Furthermore, appropriate equipment can make a world of difference. The Japanese trained their women to fight with the naginata because it mitigated the strength advantage that men would have in hand to hand.

 

 

I know you weren't the one suggesting this, but in the end this all comes down to not being particularly relevant when discussing a fantasy game (and certainly not the PC). As far as I'm concerned, if this is the line in the sand for someone as to whether or not the setting is believable and appropriate, I think that's on the person and not on the game developer.

[jezz555]

 

 

First, the weight of medieval weapons (and armor) is grossly overstated, and even then fails to take into account weapon balance. Speed is so valuable in a melee fight. Men would definitely still typically have an advantage in the speed of their blade and their stamina due to physical characteristics, but women wouldn't have issues with fainting while in a fight.

 

Well weight is one thing, but if you're swinging whatever around for a long period of time, it's going to feel a lot heavier. It's like walking a mile vs. walking a mile uphill.

[Dragoonlordz]

Realistic and unrealistic.. come on people.. this is going to be a pure fantasy game.. Stop basing so much on realisting.. and I am not even sure how accuarate some of this information.. Pure fantasy is very open to anything that isn't common sence. Uncommon sence.. something that isn't based on facts or "normal" logic if there is a such thing... that is why I am interested in fantasy in a first place. TT

 

Do not worry what has been said in this thread will not force or enforce any change in direction for the development of the game. This one just like the other three I linked earlier were locked for a good reason and this one will be so probably sooner or later too. The team creating the game are very skilled and talented, very well educated and intelligent. They will handle any such situations in the game the way best suited to the world and cultures within it and appropriately for the characters and storylines, not on whether or not forumite a or b believes their political or social views are the more correct one to have.

 

I am only taking part in this thread for entertainment at this point in time because I know what is coming down the line with regards to this thread. I will however put my points across and discuss the topic in a reasonable and logical fashion until that occurs but I am under no illusion about the reality of the lack of impact this threads content will have on the design of the game because I know that Chris and the others are educated and intelligent, mature and wise enough to design such without the input of this constant bickering contained here. This thread serves no other purpose than discussion between forumites and not forumites influencing the developers on this specific topic.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Dragoonlordz

[Dream]

I'm sorry, but how does this keep sailing over your head? Its not just an issue of appearance. The issue is STRENGTH. When you are physically strong its visible. Don't you think your "muscle therapy" would actually... you know, give someone muscles? Buffy's strength is still ridiculous IMO because the magic that gives it to her just makes her stronger, it doesn't make her muscles expand or anything. I gave Valeria and Red Sonja as examples of female warriors who look the part; neither one is bulging with meat, but they're both tall, athletic and have long reach, in other words they look like they could handle themselves in a fight and carry their weapons without fainting.

 

And when you're fireproof does that mean your skin should look this? You're saying that Buffy's strength is impossible but that's the whole point of magic; to do the impossible.

 

Way to completely miss the point. The issue is not that there just happen to be Muslims in India, Malaysia or the UK, its that THEY'RE THEY ONES THROWING THE ACID.

 

Add to that the fact that you have no ****ing clue what "racism" is. Islam is not a race. Arabs are a race. Do you understand the distinction? When I point out that the Quaran mandates draconian punishment, beating of women, apostate killing and sets market prices for slaves I'm not being RACIST against Arabs I'm merely CRITICIZING Islam. You have no idea the cultural, legal and physical pressures brought to bear on women who forced to wear the Hijab in countries with theocracies or salafist regimes. Kindly take you misinformed post-modernist bull**** elsewhere. (Saudi Arabia maybe?)

 

Did you read the rest of the replies because both of your less than clever retorts were already attempted others. To summarize:

 

1) The people getting acid thrown on them (and the ones throwing it) in India are Hindu (look at pretty much any article on the topic in India and notice how many women are dressed in traditionally Hindu garb).

 

2) While Islamophobia is not racism, per se, using the term racism when referring to hate against Muslims is generally accepted (even in the academic community). Regardless of whether you call it racism or Islamophobia, though, what the poster I was replying to said did originate from a position of ignorance (if not outright hate).

 

Also, have you ever read the Bible, because that book advocates for some pretty brutal ****. You see, extremists of EVERY stripe are ****ing insane; it's not something that's unique to Islam.

[jezz555]

Realistic and unrealistic.. come on people.. this is going to be a pure fantasy game.. Stop basing so much on realisting.. and I am not even sure how accuarate some of this information.. Pure fantasy is very open to anything that isn't common sence. Uncommon sence.. something that isn't based on facts or "normal" logic if there is a such thing... that is why I am interested in fantasy in a first place. TT

 

Do not worry what has been said in this thread will not force or enforce any change in direction for the development of the game. This one just like the other three I linked earlier were locked for a good reason and this one will be so probably sooner or later too. The team creating the game are very skilled and talented, very well educated and intelligent. They will handle any such situations in the game the way best suited to the world and cultures within it and appropriately for the characters and storylines, not on whether or not forumite a or b believes their political or social views are the more correct one to have.

 

I am only taking part in this thread for entertainment at this point in time because I know what is coming down the line with regards to this thread. I will however put my points across and discuss the topic in a reasonable and logical fashion until that occurs but I am under no illusion about the reality of the lack of impact this threads content will have on the design of the game because I know that Chris and the others are educated and intelligent, mature and wise enough to design such without the input of this constant bickering contained here.

 

We get it, your too good for this thread. I think most of us are here for entertainment as well, did you join this forum with the intent that you would be discovering a cure for cancer or something? Because I don't think that's what computer game forums are for...