Scout Modes?

[PsychoBlonde]

One thing that would sometimes bug me in Baldur's Gate was that there was limited ability to scout--if you stealthed your rogue and sent them on ahead, frequently they'd get spotted and ganked before you could get the rest of the party to them. That, and enemies had exactly the same visual radius you did. This was particularly bad for encounters that would trigger dialog, because the INSTANT you got within range of them, they would start talking and you had no chance to do anything useful with your party formation.

 

I think it'd be really cool if there were some modes in the game that let you alter your visual range, so you could see enemies without triggering them. Maybe tie it to specific classes, like stealth for rogues and farsight for rangers or whatever.

[Osvir]

Awesome!

 

Thought of some more:

Wizard's eye for Wizards. "Smell" for Barbarian. "Sense" for Fighter. A constant "Detect Evil"-perk/skill that you can upgrade on Priests and Paladins.

[Sacred_Path]

In Divine Divinity, you had two skills that increased your sight. In PE, maybe make it a feat/ perk.

[Pipyui]

To the first part - isn't that a risk to be taken for scouting alone? I don't see a problem here.

To the second part - dialogue shoudn't pause gameplay, just like in NWN. If your scout is chatting with a hostile (one that doesn't immediately gut him), perhaps that dialogue would end abrubtly (and violently) when said hostile discovers the arrival of reinforcments for the scout. You can manage your party formation and try to approach the scout during conversation then, but at the risk of losing out in possible dialogue options and content. Scouting is still risky business, but not wholly disadvantageous. Greater risk, greater reward.

 

Regarding implementations of "farsight," isn't this what stealth is for? Not saying it's a bad idea, just don't see it as being a necessity. Scouting only works because scouts have an advantage in knowing where they're looking and usually what for. I'm no word wizard, so you'll just have to use your imagination here, but a scout knows to examine anything in the way of his party's destination. The scout doesn't need farsight to avoid being spotted, it's good enough that (s)he knows an enemy camp is there and not vise versa. The scout uses stealth and has the advantage of knowing what to look for (an encampment isn't hard to spot) on his party's intended path. The camp will surely have sentries, but they don't know when or where an enemy might be - much more uncertainty here. Am I making sense (not being sarcastic here)? The scout and the enemies of the encampment might have the same visual range, but the scout has a huge advantage in spotting the encampment over being spotted.

[PsychoBlonde]

Regarding implementations of "farsight," isn't this what stealth is for? Not saying it's a bad idea, just don't see it as being a necessity. Scouting only works because scouts have an advantage in knowing where they're looking and usually what for.

 

That's lovely and realistic and doesn't work at all in the lovely and UNREALISTIC top-down view where the entire world is a black fog until you physically go walk into it. It's not like you can climb a hill and stare off into the distance in an isometric game. It just doesn't work. Think in game terms, not in "real life" terms.

 

The problem with stealth scouting is that the game is often designed in such a way that stealth is VERY limited in its usefulness and implemented in such a way that it will get you in trouble more often than not. I'd like to see some options for scouting which are actual advantages instead of just an enormous risk.

 

Granted, I'd like to see some options for stealth that are actual advantages instead of an enormous risk. DDO does this quite well, for instance, you can use the Bluff skill while stealthed to pull enemies away from their group without triggering anyone else in that group. You can also initiate Assassinate attacks (provided you are an assassin rogue) from stealth, instantly killing many enemies. There is a distinct difference between being stealthy and being invisible. Light conditions matter. It's actually quite fun--a good rogue in DDO with patience can pick off entire groups of enemies a few at a time, but it by no means makes them the Uber Class, it's quite balanced.

[Starglider]

I like having a combat-useless but scouting-excellent shapechange for this (for Druids or Mages). Bird, bat, fox, something like that.

[JOG]

Having just played trough BG1+2 with a thief a couple of weeks ago, I really don't see the issue any issue wirh stealth. Quite on the contrary, stealth is like an innate invisibility spell - run around a corner and hide and they stop chasing you. May be a bit harder in the wilderness, but stealth attacks in the wilderness aren't exactly the thief's terrain anyway but the ranger's. Also, taking you out of stealth for triggered dialogue, is a NWN feature. In BG you could avoid such triggers by increasing your stealth skill.

 

But the issue you have isn't really about stealth but about perception, the skills/attributes that oppose stealth could also be used to determine the fog of war radius, of course this could apply to our opponents as well and with a high perception they could snipe us before we see them. Careful what you wish for.

[Pipyui]

Yeah, in retrospec my idea cannot be reasonably implemented in a video game like PE (perhaps in a stealth-centric one though). So I suppose that simplifies that idea down to perception vs. stealth checks. If I can come up with any bright (and realistic) ideas to make this better for stealth/scouting, I'll be sure to let everyone know.

 

I guess when it comes down to it, I've always been very unimpressed by past implementations of stealth in isometric games, DA:O included. So I suppose my reservations about "farsight" are more a sentiment against isometric stealth mechanics in general. Sentiments for another thread.

[Osvir]

Fighter = Sense

Cipher = Telepathically Hear

Wizard = Wizard's Eye (a small eye-like orb)

Ranger = Animal whistle for a bird to give you vision for a little while, though this comes at the cost of enemies hearing.

Druid = Must stand still for a little bit to be able to channel, places his hand on the Earth and a pulse like sphere pulsates out and indicates where there are enemies with a "red" light depending on how close/how far.

Barbarian = Smell

Paladin = Detect Evil

Priest = Idunno

Rogue = Scout

Chanter = Super-Sonic Song?

Monk = Meditate, scry's the path of least resistance.

 

If these passive~ buffs where a levelable skill, each your game could be different. One game your Rogue is a devil in combat slicing and dicing, but can't scout for ****, open locks or whatever he usually does, he's a ninja/assassin this game and your Wizard is your scout this game, opening locks, casting shields, scouting and dispelling traps with magic.

 

The next game you can have a trusty Rogue scout, and have a powerful DPS Wizard. For balancing sake, in this way every class could serve any function (Attack/Defense/Utility). Popular concept in League of Legends.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Osvir

[PsychoBlonde]

Yeah, in retrospec my idea cannot be reasonably implemented in a video game like PE (perhaps in a stealth-centric one though). So I suppose that simplifies that idea down to perception vs. stealth checks. If I can come up with any bright (and realistic) ideas to make this better for stealth/scouting, I'll be sure to let everyone know

 

Please do.

[PsychoBlonde]

But the issue you have isn't really about stealth but about perception, the skills/attributes that oppose stealth could also be used to determine the fog of war radius, of course this could apply to our opponents as well and with a high perception they could snipe us before we see them. Careful what you wish for.

 

Actually, I would really like this feature. Running into a narrow valley and then suddenly *fwwt, fwwt* you're taking damage and you can't tell who's shooting at you . . .

 

I also hope they do some interesting stuff with up/down in the game and so forth. I'd really like to see abilities that let you circumvent switchbacks and so forth, so that if you're in that narrow valley getting plinked by archers, maybe your wizard can d-door to the top of the cliff and throw a fireball. Or maybe he'll manage to get himself skewered 15 times. All kinds of options.

[Kaz]

I'm all for adding more versatility in scouting. It was such an important feature in the IE games, yet the options for scouting were pretty much limited to stealth and the occasional wizard eye. I think messing with sight distance could be interesting, it's pretty powerful though so needs to be implemented carefully. I was actually planning on making a post on this exact topic, and even made a mock up image to illustrate some ideas.

 

 

So here's an example how sound ques could be implemented. I should have used an interior setting in the example because it makes no sense to hear something in the open before you can see it. Unless it's a swarm of insects or something.. anyway, it's just another dimension of scouting to explore, and I think it's interesting because it acts as a buffer zone without visually revealing the map.

 

Another big one I wanted to bring up revolved around mages. This all ties in with strategy and preparation, but I think it would be make for a really useful non-combat skill to able to sense other magics in the area. A weak version of the skill would reveal the presence of a being capable of casting magic and maybe a general description like the school of magics available to him. If the player chooses to invest in that skill he might also reveal the level of the spells in addition to it's school. And finally a maxed skill would grant a chance to reveal the specific spells prepared in his/her grimoire.

[PsychoBlonde]

I'm all for adding more versatility in scouting. It was such an important feature in the IE games, yet the options for scouting were pretty much limited to stealth and the occasional wizard eye. I think messing with sight distance could be interesting, it's pretty powerful though so needs to be implemented carefully. I was actually planning on making a post on this exact topic, and even made a mock up image to illustrate some ideas.

 

*image snipped*

 

So here's an example how sound ques could be implemented. I should have used an interior setting in the example because it makes no sense to hear something in the open before you can see it. Unless it's a swarm of insects or something.. anyway, it's just another dimension of scouting to explore, and I think it's interesting because it acts as a buffer zone without visually revealing the map.

 

Another big one I wanted to bring up revolved around mages. This all ties in with strategy and preparation, but I think it would be make for a really useful non-combat skill to able to sense other magics in the area. A weak version of the skill would reveal the presence of a being capable of casting magic and maybe a general description like the school of magics available to him. If the player chooses to invest in that skill he might also reveal the level of the spells in addition to it's school. And finally a maxed skill would grant a chance to reveal the specific spells prepared in his/her grimoire.

 

Do you mean sound cues? They do something like this in DDO where if you "hear" a stealthed critter moving, there's a brief reddish flash around its feet. It works quite well, and I like the idea as you've shown it there. I also very much like your "sense magic" idea.

 

I really hope they incorporate ideas like these into Eternity. This kind of detail has been sadly lacking from games in recent years.

[Pshaw]

Considering they want stealth to be a viable means of combat avoidance I believe that this may not be much of an issue in this game. I do agree that in many games stealth is only useful for the modifiers it provides in combat (plus damage when attack from stealth, ect) and not much else. I don't think this will be the case in PE though as they want you to be able to skip entire sections of combat by sneaking around them.