[Merged] Armor mechanics thoughts

[Electricall]

Upgraded base types and cultural flavors

I think that armors should be varied and definitely have various cultural flavors within the game. And I think that these various 'flavors' of armors should be adjusted versions of the base armors, that you can then enchant in a forge or the like. This gives that nice feeling of, you've managed to fight through an ancient ruin and found an excellent nonmagical leather armor, one created using leatherworking styles and craftmanship that no longer exists, one that's still in prime condition after hundreds of years in this... This tomb. So maybe that was the only treasure you found there, or one of a few, and yet it's still something to be really excited about, since you can then enchant this armor and make one of the best armors in the entire game. Definitely the best light armor in the game. That gives a really nice sense of accomplishments when you've done all those different parts right, and you get the final reward.

 

Wizards in armor

I definitely agree with the decision to make wizards able to wear armor, but that such wizards are a different type than 'normal' wizards. Perhaps more like a battle mage styled caster, who can hold its own in melee if needed, especially once he or she gets some enchantment spells going. Having lots of fun, viable builds really ties a cRPG together in my opinion, especially action RPGs like Diablo 2. PE obviously isn't an action RPG, but this is still a major factor of replayability, especially since combat is still fun like it is in action RPGs, but also, crucially, more meaningful in a more storydriven game such as this.

 

Relevance and variety

The team should make an effort to make every type of base armor relevant. It has often been the case in these games that players just immediately go for the heaviest type their class can wear and then that remains static for the rest of the game. It should be a tougher choice in my opinion. Perhaps my wizard is wearing medium armor as a compromise, but comes across a light armor with unique enchantments that grant a bonus to spell penetration, making my spells harder to resist for monsters with resilience against magic. Perhaps the game could have something like a forge where you can move enchantments from one item to another, for a (high) price? If not, I'll have to choose very carefully, and perhaps switch as necessary during my adventures. At the same time, it can create a feeling of dissatisfaction when you're stuck trying to choose between armors and you're not happy with either of them; if you're indecisive in general, like I am, that can be a real downer.

 

Is it okay for an upgrade from a visual type of armor to maintain its relative position to other armor types even if "realistically" that upgraded armor is now probably superior in protection to other armor types? E.g. an armored jack or brigandine armor is probably more protective than even nice suit of leather armor... but mechanically, we're presenting it as an upgrade of a padded (doublet) armor type.

In response to this, all I can say is that a rare version of a light armor should DEFINITELY be on par with heavier armors. Maybe not something extreme like a super rare leather armor being as good as full plate, but still. It should be a fairly big deal imo.

[Karkarov]

It is perfectly fine (and realistic since this seems to be big deal for most) for a master crafted and very well made suit of full leather armor to be superior to say a chain shirt. Just because it is a leather armor doesn't mean you can't have light chain on the joints, or a stiff but thin metal backing on the breastplate between two layers of leather.

 

Specifically from the Update I will say this.

 

They should go for cultural style superiority for a number of reasons. What do I mean by that?

 

Simple, in the fictional town of Ostwin there lives a blacksmith with a long tradition! He is in his later years, has multiple apprentices, and this smithy has been in his family as long as anyone can remember, say 150+ years. Also they focus specifically on the making of fine chain mail armors. That is all they make armor wise. Word is the local nobility get all their armor from this smith and outfit their elite troops with his chain armors, and mages seek it out when they want to make enchanted armor. So it goes to recon that this guys chain mail is going to be made of sterner stuff than what you can buy at "Ali Baba's Discount Armor Market".

 

Having armor "tiers" be handled this way adds a touch of realism and can contribute to the lore of the game making PE over all more believable. Remember, in the real world all renowned smiths had their own trader mark. A way to point at an item and say "this was made by Masamune" or whatever. So instead of making "Chain Hauberk +1" or "Chain Hauberk - Masterwork" this guy might produce a "Ostwian Chain Hauberk". It could be not only lighter than a normal chain hauberk, but also add better protection due to superiority in crafting techniques and maybe even materials.

 

The same concept works for weapons as well. Nothing says these things even need to be manufactured in "current" times either. Maybe the best sword smith that ever was lived in a country that lost a war 50 years ago and the smith died with his secrets? The only way to get one of those weapons would be to find one, it won't just be sitting in a shop.

 

It goes without mentioning though that this should still be combined with standard armor "tiers". Breastplate -> Half Plate -> Field Plate -> Full Plate. Just now there are sometimes one or more versions that are better than "standard".

[Sensuki]

Haha I was going to make my own thread too "My thoughts on the armor issue" but I thought my word count was just a bit shy, so I just posted in the update thread.

[TheWoodenMan]

I agree, rather than going with a +1/+2/+3 escalation, different quality levels of armor could be introduced.

 

I was thinking, on the Chainmail/Scale Mail question of how do you make that stuff scale (pun intended) to end game?

 

What about giving consideration to materials alongside craftsmanship?

 

I remember how different and interesting the Ankheg armor in BG1 was compared to just plate mail sets (and the unique benefits it gave for druids etc)

 

Scale mail could graduate in effectivenes depending on what it's made out of?

Rarer scales from dragons could give great protection and color specific benefits, and other lizards (basilisks etc) could have resistances or quirks.

 

For chainmail, different types of ores, metals and their varying properties or rarity could come in to play.

(the obvious fantasy option here being mithril) but you could go with meteoric steel, adamantine etc etc.

 

the same would obviously apply to scale mail made out of metal.

 

If there was any kind of crafting system, this would then open the door to plenty of interesting possibilities to get this stuff made yourself,

or just quest for it or find it in the world.

[Grotesque]

All this "lets make the chain mail as viable as plate mail" is illogical.

Plate mail is practically the best defense you can get and thats that.

 

Chain mail is pretty useless against arrows but good against slashes (not great because there's still some energy transfer from sword impact) and would be pretty useless against estocs and rapiers -thrust damage. mail is useless against energy transfer weapons as mauls and flails.

 

Plate mail should be great against thrusts and slashes and arrows too and not so great against energy transfer weapons, especially warhammers that were designed to pierce plate.

 

Orcs wanting to look kool in raw hide armour? Then they deserve to go extinct if they did not realize by now that plate gives the best protection

 

So logically, plate would be always a better protection than mail or leather. What the player should do is to choose between tradeoffs between these armour tiers, and these tradeoffs should be dictated by the skill mechanics.

 

Any class should be able to wear ANY kind of armour and use ANY weapon. And that should be written in stone.

thats what a real RPG is all about

The problem should be how your character is efficient with that armour and weapon, and how efficient the character is also governed by skills and stats I choose to invest in.

 

Why not having a thief wearing a cuirass and chain hood?

Or a wizard in full plate wielding a hallebarde? Does his hands have to be free to cast a spell?

So in a sense, all the talk about armor is pretty useless and out of context as long as the other mechanics are not in place.

Tradeoff: metal is very hard to imbue with magic

 

I know what people will say, that the majority will never choose those kind of builds because they are not practical, but the flavor in an RPG is how to bring an exotic build to be practical, and sometimes those are the most practical in the game.

 

Wearing plate all over should suck the stamina out of you, so long fights would be a problem for a warrior in full plate because he would be tired much quicker and become less effective at killing. And full plate could have a very high cost and be rare.

 

What would be great to have in the game is the localized damage mechanic (head neck torso gut limbs) and an overlapping armour system where I can equip a cuirass over a hauberk or chain over a gambeson, metal helmet over chain hood etc

 

Armour tiers and progression could depend on

- manufacturer : certain degrees of craftsmanship - weight reduction

- innovation: angled surfaces, accessories for better joint protection

 

- materials - the ability to sustain damage until repairing and ease/cost of repair, maintenance

- armour age - more often and higher cost of maintenance for older in service pieces of armour

- any other ideas please insert

 

so, combining all those variables and making quality plate prohibitive and designing a skill system also around the armour tiers in the game, easily chain armour could be better than some plate armour, and innovative new FULL plate armours made from desest materials would be greatly sought after (and expensive like in reality ) by players and equipping all the characters with such valued armour would be impossible.

 

What I would love to have is armours like in Fallout that they just did that, protect you and not giving you bonuses to speech or protect you from poison or making you a better haggler. I know this will be a fantasy game but what I would like to see is at least some logical armour bonuses.

[Merlkir]

A small correction:

 

Chain mail is pretty useless against arrows

 

Mail is actually very good against arrows. That's why it was so popular for so long. If it wasn't, armies of naked archers would've ruled all the ancient and medieval battlefields.

What you often get when people try to test this for themselves, even on TV shows (imagine that) - they put butted mail on a wooden figurine and shoot it. A body behaves quite differently to a dummy, it gives way and moves constantly in battle. Also (the major mistake) butted mail was never really used and is considerably less durable than riveted mail.

 

Of course mail requires some kind of padding be worn underneath. There are accounts of warriors (from the crusades for example) looking like hedgehogs and still fighting, being absolutely fine in the end. There's a muslim record of a saracen knight, who lanced a frankish knight straight on at full speed, thought him dead. The guy survived thanks to his suit of mail.

 

Mail's pretty awesome.

 

edit: Another fun fact - plate is crafted to spread its mass all over the body, it doesn't hang just from the shoulders and waist as mail or scale do. It's quite comfortable to wear and I would say slightly less tiring to run in for a long time than the other two.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Merlkir

[smithereen]

I definitely agree that making primitive armor viable just so people can 'look cool' is pretty absurd, but there *are* advantages to wearing lighter armor. It really bugs me when chain gets a smaller movement penalty than plate, though.

[Grand_Commander13]

I was more wondering why Plate and Chain would be contemporaries at all. I thought that Chain fell out of favor because Plate was better in pretty much every way in a fight. Chain's benefits really only show up in ease of donning and storage, since its lesser weight wasn't distributed as well so it still ended up tiring you out more quickly.

[Merlkir]

I was more wondering why Plate and Chain would be contemporaries at all. I thought that Chain fell out of favor because Plate was better in pretty much every way in a fight. Chain's benefits really only show up in ease of donning and storage, since its lesser weight wasn't distributed as well so it still ended up tiring you out more quickly.

 

Quite right. It was still being used in parts of the world where mobility and quick of use were more important, or by less rich warriors, or as a transition armour sewn on padded jacks where the plate didn't cover the body properly.. (armpits, groin etc)

 

But yeah, it's pretty much as you say.

 

Of course it's kept in games for variety's sake. And if you have cultures different enough, you can usually find ways to explain its persistence. And most people won't care.

[Grand_Commander13]

Plate was cheaper than chain though, so you can't even make chain the poor-man's armor.

 

I don't know how a brigandine or jack would compare to chain for protection, but I do know that they were contemporaries of plate.

[JOG]

I was more wondering why Plate and Chain would be contemporaries at all. I thought that Chain fell out of favor because Plate was better in pretty much every way in a fight. Chain's benefits really only show up in ease of donning and storage, since its lesser weight wasn't distributed as well so it still ended up tiring you out more quickly.

 

Mail armor (mesh of metal rings) was used by the celts since 300 BC and was still used in the late 19th century (early bulletproof vests). Actually it still is in use in form of cut-proof gloves for butchers. Half plate was used in ancient Greece around 800 BC and was still in use in WW I. Full Plate armor was used from 1300 to 1700, until the gun made it obsolete. Combinations of normal cloth or leather armor with steel plates was in use for even longer and is still in use (flak vests).

Edited October 31, 2012 by JOG

[Merlkir]

@ Grand_Commander13:

 

Hm, it would of course depend on the quality of the plate and a specific period of history - a fine customized plate suit would cost more than a suit of mail I think, but in general I agree. Plate certainly takes a master of the craft to make right. Making mail is a tedious process which certainly requires considerable skill, but it's different type of complexity to designing, shaping and specifically hardening many different pieces of plate.

 

What I meant was that poor warriors would perhaps use inherited or looted mail. But the topic of armour from the olden days being used later as heirloom equipment is...pretty speculative. So, yeah, in general I'd agree.

[Grotesque]

Mail is actually very good against arrows.

What you often get when people try to test this for themselves, even on TV shows (imagine that) - they put butted mail on a wooden figurine and shoot it. A body behaves quite differently to a dummy

 

A straw dummy or a chunk of pork meat behaves exactly as a real body when shooting an arrow at it. Of course an arrow can glace off chain mail shirts in some rare instances but this is not an argument to consider it a viable protection against combat arrows.

 

Combat arrow heads are needle like and were completely different from hunting arrow heads.

Shooting this kind of arrowhead at chain mail and it penetrates it easily.

 

I could begin and start talking about all the physics behind this mechanical process but I am not gonna do that because this thread is about something else.

 

Why not everybody wore full plate mail? Because it was very labor intensive to produce it and expensive and every suit of plate was designed around a specific body type.

There are some instances in which even arrows or bolts shot close range penetrated plate armor so you can imagine the force and the energy an arrow carried. To talk it further, an indepth discussion about it would have to take account the type of bow that launched the arrow and the weight of the arrow.

 

But then again, this thread should not turn into a ballistics university faculty.

 

Edit: I would love to see some ideas shaping a strong game armour mechanics and not a discussion about plate vs chainmail because plate was better in the end and it would not have appeared if chain mail offered a great protection.

In the past if you had money, you had the best protection. And that's a fact.

 

And this arrowhead is blunt compared to others

 

Edited October 31, 2012 by Grotesque

[JOG]

http://en.wikipedia....)#Effectiveness

 

Mail armour provided an effective defence against slashing blows by an edged weapon and penetration by thrusting and piercing weapons; in fact a study conducted at the Royal Armouries at Leeds concluded that "it is almost impossible to penetrate using any conventional medieval weapon"

 

The most effective weapon in the medieval age was not the sword but the mace and hammer, when full plate protected the limbs against blunt blows, they simply added a spike to their hammer, getting the best out of both worlds.

 

But yes, full plate was obviously much more expensive, as it required a skilled craftsman to create a custom suit that has the joints at exactly the right places. full plate also wasn't just a sheet of shaped metal, but consisted of many layers. Chainmail could be made by everyone, just give them a mold and a "knitting recipe", once it's done, anyone can slip into that metal shirt .

Edited October 31, 2012 by JOG

[Merlkir]

A straw dummy or a chunk of pork meat behaves exactly as a real body when shooting an arrow at it. Of course an arrow can glace off chain mail shirts in some rare instances but this is not an argument to consider it a viable protection against combat arrows.

 

Combat arrow heads are needle like and were completely different from hunting arrow heads.

Shooting this kind of arrowhead at chain mail and it penetrates it easily.

 

I realize you want to keep the thread focused on something else, but what you're saying is simply not true. Easily demonstrated by tests with real (as you call them "combat") arrows and riveted mail. Handily documented by written historical accounts.

 

So, no, mail is pretty good protection against arrows.

 

Here's an excellent article about mail in general, which also talks about arrow resistance.

 

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html

[Shadenuat]

So, no, mail is pretty good protection against arrows.

Depends on diameter and thickness of rings imo.

[Grotesque]

ok, its official.

 

this thread should be renamed: chain mail vs arrow

[Shadenuat]

this thread should be renamed: chain mail vs arrow

Everyone just already posted everything they could in Update 29 thread about the issue, it was like a rush into holy Mecca of armor-fans.

[Grotesque]

this thread should be renamed: chain mail vs arrow

Everyone just already posted everything they could in Update 29 thread about the issue, it was like a rush into holy Mecca of armor-fans.

 

Ah! well... we can let this thread die in peace then

[Electricall]

They should go for cultural style superiority for a number of reasons. What do I mean by that?

 

Simple, in the fictional town of Ostwin there lives a blacksmith with a long tradition! He is in his later years, has multiple apprentices, and this smithy has been in his family as long as anyone can remember, say 150+ years. Also they focus specifically on the making of fine chain mail armors. That is all they make armor wise. Word is the local nobility get all their armor from this smith and outfit their elite troops with his chain armors, and mages seek it out when they want to make enchanted armor. So it goes to recon that this guys chain mail is going to be made of sterner stuff than what you can buy at "Ali Baba's Discount Armor Market".

 

Having armor "tiers" be handled this way adds a touch of realism and can contribute to the lore of the game making PE over all more believable. Remember, in the real world all renowned smiths had their own trader mark. A way to point at an item and say "this was made by Masamune" or whatever. So instead of making "Chain Hauberk +1" or "Chain Hauberk - Masterwork" this guy might produce a "Ostwian Chain Hauberk". It could be not only lighter than a normal chain hauberk, but also add better protection due to superiority in crafting techniques and maybe even materials.

 

I think that definitely in almost all ways it is better to use this approach. The advantage to the +1/+2/+3/etc naming system is clarity though, it's easy to tell at a glance that 'this armor I found is better than what I have'. But I don't think that bit of extra clarity is worth it. Definitely, it adds a lot more flavor when you can click an armor you found and read a bit about it, what does it look like, does it have any distinguishing features, something that tells you who made it, etc. Even if it's just a nonmagical chain shirt, it could be something special. So that definitely adds a sense of immersion and satisfaction when exploring and completing objectives.

[FlintlockJazz]

A straw dummy or a chunk of pork meat behaves exactly as a real body when shooting an arrow at it. Of course an arrow can glace off chain mail shirts in some rare instances but this is not an argument to consider it a viable protection against combat arrows.

 

Combat arrow heads are needle like and were completely different from hunting arrow heads.

Shooting this kind of arrowhead at chain mail and it penetrates it easily.

 

I realize you want to keep the thread focused on something else, but what you're saying is simply not true. Easily demonstrated by tests with real (as you call them "combat") arrows and riveted mail. Handily documented by written historical accounts.

 

So, no, mail is pretty good protection against arrows.

 

Here's an excellent article about mail in general, which also talks about arrow resistance.

 

http://www.myarmoury...ature_mail.html

 

Is that the same Dan Howard who writes for GURPS? Read some of his stuff if so, always find it very informative!

[nikolokolus]

I was more wondering why Plate and Chain would be contemporaries at all. I thought that Chain fell out of favor because Plate was better in pretty much every way in a fight. Chain's benefits really only show up in ease of donning and storage, since its lesser weight wasn't distributed as well so it still ended up tiring you out more quickly.

 

Certainly, plate armor was a technological advancement, but availability usually boils down to expense with any kind of weapon and armor system.

 

Plate armor was highly prized and coveted. If it hadn't been so expensive to make, anyone would have sought to get some and use it.

Edited October 31, 2012 by nikolokolus

[Elerond]

Plate was cheaper than chain though, so you can't even make chain the poor-man's armor.

 

I don't know how a brigandine or jack would compare to chain for protection, but I do know that they were contemporaries of plate.

 

Mail is quite easy and cheap to make.

 

Because you only need long and thick enough iron or steel wire, which you circle around rod which has diameter which you want for your links it is long enough to have enough rounds to make links that mail need, then make cut parallel to rod on wire one sidedly. And now you have all links you need to make mail, then you only need to weave them as shirt. I would say that expert weaver can weave at least shirt a day. And then if smith will bother he or she will close all links and that can take another day. And you don't need any real experts to do mails (because I did one and I am very poor smith)

 

Here a video how to make chain mail using steel wire

 

Of course making mail will take much longer if you forge all links invidiually.

[jivex5k]

I think this is one of those times where gameplay outweighs the need for realism.

 

Sounds like they don't want useless gear....trees? I don't know how to word it...like all hide armor is on the same tree.

 

I can understand it.

I'll use Ultima Online as an example:

 

Leather Armor: Offered lowest AR (which is bad in non-THAC0 systems), restricted meditation.

Ringmail: Offered higher AR, restricted meditation.

Chainmail: Higher AR, but not by much, restricted meditation.

Platemail: Highest AR, restricted meditation, had a dex penalty for each piece.

 

So you can see Ringmail and Leather armor are pretty useless, in fact no one used leather armor for the most part.

Ringmail was used a bit more, but mostly by the people who roleplayed orcs.

Chain was used by dex fighters.

Plate was used by tanks.

 

They changed the mechanic of leather to allow meditation, and suddenly leather was in demand...cows be damned!

Edited October 31, 2012 by jivex5k

[Merlkir]

Plate was cheaper than chain though, so you can't even make chain the poor-man's armor.

 

I don't know how a brigandine or jack would compare to chain for protection, but I do know that they were contemporaries of plate.

 

Mail is quite easy and cheap to make.

 

Because you only need long and thick enough iron or steel wire, which you circle around rod which has diameter which you want for your links it is long enough to have enough rounds to make links that mail need, then make cut parallel to rod on wire one sidedly. And now you have all links you need to make mail, then you only need to weave them as shirt. I would say that expert weaver can weave at least shirt a day. And then if smith will bother he or she will close all links and that can take another day. And you don't need any real experts to do mails (because I did one and I am very poor smith)

 

Here a video how to make chain mail using steel wire

 

Of course making mail will take much longer if you forge all links invidiually.

 

smiths wouldn't really forge the links one by one, the difficulty is in riveting them together. Many of the misconceptions about mail arose from LARPers testing stuff on their butted wire mail suits.

 

(yeah, I made one, guilty as charged)