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Hormalakh

Another proposed idea for magic use and casting (not cool-down based)...

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So I've been reading the different arguments for and against Vancian magic (sp?) and cool-down based, stamina based, and other metrics based magics. I wanted to propose another possible mechanism. I will lay out the problems as I see them, and then lay out my solution. Finally, I will try to address how this solution answers the problems as laid out. If you are not interested in reading the whole thing, look for the yellow text.

 

The Aspects of Vancian magic (and its problems as outcomes):

 

1- The one-time use of memorized magic severely limits the magic-user to only using a limited number of spells per rest. This is done so as to make magic-use challenging and tactical. This is not a problem.

 

2- Because no player has complete knowledge of the challenges he will face in a dungeon/battle it proves difficult for the magic-user to know whether they should become involved (magically) in that particular battle. If they do, they might use up spells that may be necessary for a future battle (possibly just around the corner). Players will save even rudimentary first-level spells "for the right moment" and completely neglect one aspect of their combat choices completely.

 

3- However, the party is in need of a combat-ready member, and thus magic-users are relegated either to "stone-throwing duty" or heavy-magic users in parties who are "rest-spammers." This breaks the magic mechanics and side-steps the limitations put there in the first place.

 

The Problems with "metrics-based" (cool-down/stamina/mana) magic:

 

1- Magic becomes more of an option for a magic user. As the risks of using magic decreases, magic-users are more likely to make this an option in combat. This is also not a problem, and is what the developers (probably) want.

 

2- However, the magic-user is no longer limited to a per-rest restraint, but more of a per-battle restraint. That is to say that with the end of each battle, the party can effectively wait long enough to "cool-down" the magic user so as to get into battle again.

 

2- This waiting time removes the player from immersion if he/she chooses to wait until the magic-user's cool-down is complete.

 

3- Further, because spells are (mostly) limited to a per-battle restraint, the management of spells over a series of battles no longer plays a role. Thus if two smaller battles of low-challenge monsters arrives (two camps of 8-10 goblins 2 minutes apart), the magic-user will always be ready to unleash those spells that are cool-down sensitive. Lower-tier spells are no longer an issue over multiple battles.

 

4- These problems are similar to all self-recharging mechanics (stamina, mana). Ultimately, the same players who rest-spammed, will now effectively wait-spam until their magic-users are fully recharged (to the best of their abilities). This will remove those same players from immersion.

 

There are likely other problems that I have not considered, so please let me know. I have tried to summarize the general gist of most reactions to these systems.

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

This solution to this problem actually comes from an intelligent application of the Vancian system in Baldur's Gate II (an IE game) to create a challenge in both resource-management as well as effective magic-usage. In the game, Baldur's Gate II:Throne of Bhaal, during the final arena with the boss (Melissan), the player is not allowed to rest (you are in another plane of existance, you cannot rest at all), and thus magic becomes a very limited resource. However, you need to use magic (and strong magic at that!) to weaken the boss before you can even fight her, by fighting monsters that are unleashed from "spirit pools". As you defeat each group of monsters and unlock each pool, two of the three pools "restore" your party as if you are resting. Thus they act as "rest-areas" without you actually resting for 8 hours and they restore your magic during that time. However, the spirit pools are one-time use only. Thus these pools become a very limited and precious resource and there is no opportunity to spam rest or spam wait. If you do not use magic, these spirit pools are useless (forcing the player to use magic).

 

So it seems simple enough, instead of letting "resting" restore your magic use (or stamina or mana, etc), utilize specific "spirit pools" found all throughout the P:E to restore the magic. It actually also makes more sense, from a lore perspective - I get into that at the end of this post.

 

The "pools" act like the D&D spell "Wish" where you can restore your parties magic completely. The pools are on a cool-down (every 8 hours) and several pools can be found in a dungeon (they are spread all throughout the P:E world). Perhaps, some merchants have taken the waters of these pools and sell them to adventurers. These "potions of restoration" act like the D&D cleric's level 6 spell "wonderous recall." They allow some (random) of your soul-powered spells to return to you, so as to allow magic-users to cast these spells again. Perhaps some spirit pools allow partial rejuvination, and some only allow certain schools of magic to be restored (Spirit Pool of Divination - only allows divination spells to be restored). This allows for much more interesting combinations of restoration and more interesting puzzles and challenges in dungeons. Again you can have partial restoration through potions (Potion from the spirit pool of divination).

 

I will now go through the problems as stated before and show how this mechanic solves these problems.

 

1- Vancian magic: Players will save even rudimentary first-level spells "for the right moment" and completely neglect one aspect of their combat choices completely.

 

The player now no longer has a reason to save his or her spells. As long as the player can manage his/her resources until the next pool, s/he can utilize their spells to the most tactically advantageous way possible. If they don't use it, they lose it as they reach the next pool (all spells are restored, regardless if used or not.)

 

2- Removes the player from immersion

 

The player is now even more immersed in the game, as they try to figure out (through a skill perhaps?) what kind of spirit pool they have uncovered, whether it would be best to save this pool for later use, etc and they are kept on their toes as their try to fight past monsters to get to the next "spirit pool." This continues to keep the player thinking about resource management.

 

3- Vancian magic-users are relegated either to "stone-throwing duty" or heavy-magic users in parties who are "rest-spammers."

 

Magic-users can now take their proper role as magic-users. If they do not do so, they will miss their chance to use magic in between spirit pools.

 

1- Cooldowns: The party can effectively wait long enough to "cool-down" the magic user so as to get into battle again.

 

The restoration of magic is no longer dependent on wait-times and cool-downs. The concern of "dumbing down the game" is removed as players are forced to once again manage resources and spells as before in the Vancian system.

 

3- Cooldown: The management of spells over a series of battles no longer plays a role

 

Resource management continues to be a factor between spirit pools. Players are forced to consider that they might not find a pool for long periods of time or that there might be another pool a short distance away. Sneaking and information gather through rogues become more important. They become effective as scouts looking out for enemies as well as trying to find the next spirit pool. Even then, perhaps the next spirit pool might only restore certain spells. For those who do not manage their spells effectively, they will be forced to carry potions of spiritual restoration and hope that the spell they want is restored. Players are punished for lax play, and rewarded for strategic play over several battles.

 

4- Cooldown: Lower-tier spells are no longer an issue over multiple battles

 

Once again, lower-tier spells are an issue for multiple battles. Players cannot spam level 3 flaming arrows and wait for them to cool-down between fights. Perhaps a few level one spells can continue to be on cool-down (or maybe potions would have to restore them), but these tweaks can be made over time and with enough play-testing a proper balance can be found.

 

LORE

 

It never made much sense (in D&D) that magic spells were memorized each morning and forgotten after being used. It also didn't make much sense that by resting you would restore these spells. I would imagine that the magic-user was not resting but rather spending his 8 hours in camp memorizing new spells. Not quite the restful break for the magician.

 

In P:E, magic-use and its derivatives (apart from chanters?) are linked to channeling the spirits in some way. Thus as each person in this world channels their spirit in this world, they are likely to weaken this link in some way. However, spread all throughout the world are "pools" or portals in which the links to the spirits and people is much stronger and this link can be strengthened at these pools. However, the pools can only be used every so-often as the energies emanating from these pools gets used up. Over time, the energies in these pools recharge and allow people to "refresh" their links with their souls. Some merchants have tried to make a profit from this, as many pools found inside the cities are protected or bought (and can be found only in the hands of the very wealthy). These merchants have asked adventurers going out on their journeys to gather the waters of these pools and to return them to the merchants. The price paid for these waters is good, but purchasing these waters is quite expensive (merchants need to make a profit afterall).

 

What do you guys think?

 

Please forgive any spelling or grammatical mistakes.

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My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

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I can't say I'm a fan of your solution as the mechanics sort of lean towards a more ARPG style of play.

 

If you didn't already know, Josh Sawyer's proposed solution is a mix of Vancian and Metrics-based solutions

 

Spells are handled similar to a Sorcerer in D&D, Spells are learned similar to a Wizard.

 

Lowest level spells do not require a Grimoire (probably solely level 1 at least in P:E1 )

Rest of the spells require a Grimoire (magical implement) to be able to cast them

 

Higher level spells require rest to replenish (Vancian in application at least)

Lower level spells are on a tiered cooldown (like when you run out of a level of Sorcerer spells in D&D) and are generally aimed to be a per-encounter resource

 

Which levels are per-encounter resources changes as you level up. A level 12 character may have access to 5th level spells, but only levels 1-3 are per-encounter.

 

A Grimoire can only hold a certain amount of spells, you can interchange Grimoires during combat but there will be a cooldown on it's useability

 

However we do not know whether the level lockout is based on the Grimoire or the Character, but I assume it's the character

 

Aloth has a Rapier in his concept art, meaning that Wizards may actually use weapons as well (which I am a fan of).

Edited by Sensuki

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How is your idea mechanically different from plain old Baldur's Gate magic with safe rest areas? The lore is different and maybe they can use something like that, but I don't see the difference between a safe place to rest and get all of your spells back and a recharge pool that accomplishes the same purpose. I think Obsidian's proposed mechanics are more interesting.

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I can't say I'm a fan of your solution as the mechanics sort of lean towards a more ARPG style of play.

 

If you didn't already know, Josh Sawyer's proposed solution is a mix of Vancian and Metrics-based solutions

 

Spells are handled similar to a Sorcerer in D&D, Spells are learned similar to a Wizard.

 

Lowest level spells do not require a Grimoire (probably solely level 1 at least in P:E1 )

Rest of the spells require a Grimoire (magical implement) to be able to cast them

 

Higher level spells require rest to replenish (Vancian in application at least)

Lower level spells are on a tiered cooldown (like when you run out of a level of Sorcerer spells in D&D) and are generally aimed to be a per-encounter resource

 

Which levels are per-encounter resources changes as you level up. A level 12 character may have access to 5th level spells, but only levels 1-3 are per-encounter.

 

A Grimoire can only hold a certain amount of spells, you can interchange Grimoires during combat but there will be a cooldown on it's useability

 

However we do not know whether the level lockout is based on the Grimoire or the Character, but I assume it's the character

 

Aloth has a Rapier in his concept art, meaning that Wizards may actually use weapons as well (which I am a fan of).

 

I have read Josh's proposals, and I think the lack of a resource-management challenge in-between fights is the main loss with that system. You will still have people "spam-waiting" until their cooldowns regenerate. You will also most likely see very little use of higher-level magic use except with bosses. Otherwise, you'll see mostly low-level magic use (fairly boring, if you ask me).

 

Ultimately, though, even if wizards can use weapons, their skills are most commonly going to be directed towards magic use: weapons use would be relegated to your fighters for the main part. Otherwise there is no reason to have wizards if their magic skills are not going to be used. I believe that each class, while able to utilize non-class specialized skills (weaponry), should stick mainly to their primary class role. For the wizard, that would be magic.

 

Edit: Even with a mixed-vancian system, I believe that a cool-down system shouldn't be the way to go. The player should have to spend resources to recharge spells. If that means instead of spirit pools, you have spirit potions, so be it. The unlimited recharge capabilities of lower-tier magic is actually more "ARPG-like" than a limited-resource like a potion or a very slowly-recharging spirirt pool.

Edited by Hormalakh

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

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How is your idea mechanically different from plain old Baldur's Gate magic with safe rest areas? The lore is different and maybe they can use something like that, but I don't see the difference between a safe place to rest and get all of your spells back and a recharge pool that accomplishes the same purpose. I think Obsidian's proposed mechanics are more interesting.

 

The difference comes in timing changes (resting changes the time 8 hours after all). There are also pools that are specialized for certain schools of magic as well as partial restorations (potions) - this could be used for either fully restoring lower-tier spells or randomly restoring a few higher-tier spells. The other change is that a safe rest area would allow you to constantly return to it to rest-spam. Ultimately, you can keep going back and forth to the safe rest-area to rest (this would be the case as proposed by KotC system that Josh talked about). In a locked spirit pool system, the pools are one-time use (generally, of course, you could wait several game days to pass for the pool to be replenished) and force the player to move forward in the dungeon to find the next spirit pool. Fleeing from combat and returning to a safe area is no longer an option.

 

The way I see it with cooldowns is that, now instead of rest-spamming, we will have players wait-spamming. That removes players from immersion. You end up waiting for your level 1-3 spells to recharge before moving on. You will also very likely have players using rechargeable spells much more often than you would see higher level spells.

 

Edit: The spirit pools would have to be one-time use for several days (or longer) to make much sense, because if they are cooldowns every 8 hours, then people can still rest-spam and reuse spirit pools. Making the spirit-pools recharge once every week or month, would generally reduce rest-spamming (you'd have to rest for one month each time you wanted to reuse a pool).

Edited by Hormalakh

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

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IIRC the cooldowns won't be that long, 30sec to 1 minute or so I would say (will probably differentiate per tier), so the need to wait spam won't really be there.

 

There won't really be healing spells either. The health and stamina thing sort of makes it a bit easier to do multiple fights without being in danger of dying (theoretically).

 

You didn't even really need magic in Baldur's Gate 1. At most, Magic Missile to quickly get rid of a Mirror Image spell. Remove Fear to get rid of Fear. Dispel Magic to get rid of Dire Charm. Remove Paralysis to get rid of Hold. And of course healing spells. You never really needed to cast remove poison because there was always enough antidote potions. Unless the character was poisoned and held. Over the course of a quest you didn't really need to use these more than once each over quite a while. Most of the time I still had quite enough spells to keep adventuring, but my party got tired instead.

 

In early Baldur's Gate 2, I found that basically those same low level spells, Breach and Restoration (for level drain) got you by. Breach you'd generally only need to use against a powerful mage (there were a lot of easy mages in BG2), a Lich or a Dragon. Generally you wouldn't be fighting multiples of those at once either, and you could have 2-3 breach spells ready to go. So unless you weren't very good at the game, there wasn't a huge need to Rest spam (obviously if you add a tactics mod in, this may change).

 

P:E is supposed to encompass the lower level play of a series. I think Feargus said up to ~ level 12 in D&D area of power.

 

I don't really think it's the solution that matters it's how well implemented it is. This could be a really good system, or they could muck it up pretty bad. But I guess that's what patches are for.

Edited by Sensuki

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Is a 20s Cooldown considered spam-wait?

 

I would imagine so. Think about it. You have a 15 level dungeon with several parties of enemies on each level. You've used up all your level 1-3 spells on the first group of 10 goblins. You've got another 5 groups to go on that level. 20s cooldown for each group is a a minute 40 seconds of just waiting. Eh, it's not so much, but people might still wait out 20s at a time between each fight. You are still missing that key challenge of resource-management in between fights.

 

The point is the cooldowns don't encourage the player to manage his resources over several battles: rather, he knows the lower-tier magics are freebies and can be careless with those spells. It won't matter anyway, he's going to get it back. But one spirit pool per level? You bet that the player is going to make sure to be careful with what he does with those spells in each battle.

 

Edit: If the cooldowns are even longer, you'd be sure to have players waiting it out. A minute for a cooldown in our previous senario? That's 5 minutes of waiting right there. You have to be honest with yourself when thinking about these situations with magic, what would you do if the monsters were difficult to kill? Would you find the easiest way to defeating them? Or would you change your strategy?

Edited by Hormalakh

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

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P:E is supposed to encompass the lower level play of a series. I think Feargus said up to ~ level 12 in D&D area of power.

 

I don't really think it's the solution that matters it's how well implemented it is. This could be a really good system, or they could muck it up pretty bad. But I guess that's what patches are for.

 

All the more reason to make sure we get the lower-tier spells right. If they aren't challenging and are dictated by a timer, how is that any less of an aRPG than what I have proposed? I'm not saying my system is the best, but I think it answers the challenges and problems better than a cool-down system.

 

Edit: spelling

Edited by Hormalakh

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

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From my understanding you'll only get timed-lockouts on 2nd and 3rd level spells once you're zooming past BG1 experience level territory

 

It's hard to say really but if you think about it, a level 12 mage in D&D doesn't have that many spells per day.

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From my understanding you'll only get timed-lockouts on 2nd and 3rd level spells once you're zooming past BG1 experience level territory

 

It's hard to say really but if you think about it, a level 12 mage in D&D doesn't have that many spells per day.

 

That was my understanding too. From what I understand, higher-level spells would still be Vancian-based. I'm just worried about these lower-level spells being misused as crutches. Even "wait-spamming" at lower levels isn't fun and it shouldn't detract from the game regardless if it's the beginning, middle, or end. You want the game to be fun at all stages, and I believe the spirit pools do a better job of this. The spirit pools is just an idea afterall: they don't have to restore higher-level spells if resting is the mechanic that OEI wants to go with. And like I said, a creative implementation of spirit pools can open up some interesting puzzles for the game developers.

 

Ultimately, I'll be happy with what professional game developers come up with: i just wanted to throw out another idea for Josh and Tim to consider. Maybe it'll spark some new ideas for them as well when trying to tackle this very difficult problem. From all the discussions that I've been seeing on these forums about Vancian magic and cooldown-based/stamina-based magic, people have strong opinions on both sides. I'm trying to find out what the underlying problems are that people are expressing, and coming up with a solution that would address those concerns on both ends. I still don't think that OEI's current iteration (I know it's not complete and fully fleshed out, if it was, I wouldn't even be posting this) is satisfactory to everyone out there.


My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

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The difference comes in timing changes (resting changes the time 8 hours after all). There are also pools that are specialized for certain schools of magic as well as partial restorations (potions) - this could be used for either fully restoring lower-tier spells or randomly restoring a few higher-tier spells. The other change is that a safe rest area would allow you to constantly return to it to rest-spam. Ultimately, you can keep going back and forth to the safe rest-area to rest (this would be the case as proposed by KotC system that Josh talked about). In a locked spirit pool system, the pools are one-time use (generally, of course, you could wait several game days to pass for the pool to be replenished) and force the player to move forward in the dungeon to find the next spirit pool. Fleeing from combat and returning to a safe area is no longer an option.

OK. So it's more like a safe resting area with a very long cooldown. It does not solve any of the problems of the Vancian system except for eliminating rest spamming. You will still have the issue of having prepared the wrong spells for a given environment and you still will not know when the next recharge will come until it is close enough for scouting. And in exchange for getting rid of the save spamming, you introduce a scenario where a player can get stuck. Suppose somebody miscalculates the distance to the next pool or the battle between the pool and the characters turns out to be more difficult than they thought. Having already spent most of their per-rest resources, what are they supposed to do? In Baldur's Gate, you can at least head back to town -- here, it appears that if there is no available pool, you're stuck waiting until the cooldown on the earliest used one expires.

 

I agree that there has to be some manner of resource management between encounters, but I don't see why this should only impact some classes (e.g. spellcasters) and not others. I think Obsidian's system (easy to heal stamina and hard to heal health) is a better solution. Cooldowns as proposed by Obsidian are harmless -- it's 30 seconds from the time you've exhausted a given spell level (not from the time the fight ends). Unless the fights are spaced ridiculously close, most people won't even notice them.

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There won't really be healing spells either. The health and stamina thing sort of makes it a bit easier to do multiple fights without being in danger of dying (theoretically).

I agree that there has to be some manner of resource management between encounters, but I don't see why this should only impact some classes (e.g. spellcasters) and not others. I think Obsidian's system (easy to heal stamina and hard to heal health) is a better solution. Cooldowns as proposed by Obsidian are harmless -- it's 30 seconds from the time you've exhausted a given spell level (not from the time the fight ends). Unless the fights are spaced ridiculously close, most people won't even notice them.

 

It's bad to talk about the spell-casting system in a vacuum just as it was bad to talk about cooldowns in a vacuum, so I'm calling out the health/stamina bit again. I'm in agreement Althernai here.

 

There are no healing spells. No resurrection. I have my doubts about the presence of healing potions and consumable curatives in general given the wording of Update 24. Stamina is regained constantly. Health is regained only by resting. Obsidian shifted the resource management to all classes, which is great.

 

People need to get over their knee-jerk hatred of cooldowns and stop looking at "resource management" as something only for mages/wizards.

 

 

 

* Also, about the 30-second bit, Sawyer did clarify in the Matt Chat that it was only an example and may change during implementation and testing, just so people remember that.


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I've brought this up in a different thread about combat mechanics, but I'll restate it here as food for thought:

 

4th Edition D&D rules for spell casting uses a mechanic of "Daily" spells, which is similar to your idea of still forcing the caster to rest for 8 hours before being able to cast them again.

However, it introduces the concept of an "Encounter" based spell that can be used once per combat situation. This allows for some strategy of when is best to use it, without the player feeling they need to horde it for another future encounter but limits them to only using it once per combat.

The last teir is the At-Will spells, or the fall back spells so a Caster never has to take up "stone throwing" duty, they are always using magic.

 

It's an interesting concept for dealing with the problem, and may offer some ideas for futher discussion.

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OK. So it's more like a safe resting area with a very long cooldown. It does not solve any of the problems of the Vancian system except for eliminating rest spamming.

I thought it solved some of the problems of the Vancian system as I described above quite well.

 

You will still have the issue of having prepared the wrong spells for a given environment and you still will not know when the next recharge will come until it is close enough for scouting.

 

No player will ever be fully ready for any given environment. This tries to play a balance between not knowing at all what you would face in that environment and having complete knowledge due to metagaming (reloading the game). As you find several spirit pools, you can change your spell arsenal between pools.

 

And in exchange for getting rid of the save spamming, you introduce a scenario where a player can get stuck. Suppose somebody miscalculates the distance to the next pool or the battle between the pool and the characters turns out to be more difficult than they thought. Having already spent most of their per-rest resources, what are they supposed to do? In Baldur's Gate, you can at least head back to town -- here, it appears that if there is no available pool, you're stuck waiting until the cooldown on the earliest used one expires.

 

I didn't talk about save spamming, only rest spamming. I also mentioned potions of restoration that would allow partial restoration for those who are, as you say, stuck between battles. Players would also learn to not completely replenish their spells at every pool. Perhaps they'd have a spirit pool saved in the dungeon for when they need to completely revamp their magic list.

 

Similarly, towns could have spirit pools or temples that allow restoration of spells either for free or at a price.

 

I agree that there has to be some manner of resource management between encounters, but I don't see why this should only impact some classes (e.g. spellcasters) and not others. I think Obsidian's system (easy to heal stamina and hard to heal health) is a better solution. Cooldowns as proposed by Obsidian are harmless -- it's 30 seconds from the time you've exhausted a given spell level (not from the time the fight ends). Unless the fights are spaced ridiculously close, most people won't even notice them.

 

I think it's a matter of whether stamina is used for fighters only or whether it will also be used for casters as well. Just because you have different mechanics for different classes, doesn't mean that one class has to deal with resource-management while the other doesn't. Wizards and casters are less likely to rest due to healing wounds (they usually are in the back) while fighters don't need cooldowns for spells. The resources managed here are different and their mechanics are different, but that doesn't mean one has to manage it and the other doesn't.

 

If I remember back to Baldur's Gate II, some fights were spaced quite ridiculously close. Especially in dungeons.


My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

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There are no healing spells. No resurrection. I have my doubts about the presence of healing potions and consumable curatives in general given the wording of Update 24. Stamina is regained constantly. Health is regained only by resting. Obsidian shifted the resource management to all classes, which is great.

 

People need to get over their knee-jerk hatred of cooldowns and stop looking at "resource management" as something only for mages/wizards.

 

 

 

* Also, about the 30-second bit, Sawyer did clarify in the Matt Chat that it was only an example and may change during implementation and testing, just so people remember that.

 

There are no spells that restore health. But there will be spells that restore stamina.

 

I find that it is a false equivalency to think that fighters and magic-users should have similar mechanics. Fighters are usually damage dealers and takers while magic users have a much more versatile array of effects that they can conjure. Their skills are different; thus their resource management can be different. As I mentioned in my previous post, just because different classes manage different resources with different mechanics doesn't mean that every class has a resource it doesn't have to manage. Fighters and tanks usually manage health and stamina as a resource. Wizards and other casters, by virtue of the fact that they stand in the back of the formation, do not have to worry about stamina and health as much as they do about spells available. The mechanics for replenishing these resources do not necessarily have to be equal.

 

I also do not have a knee-jerk hatred of cooldowns. The stamina mechanic works through cool-downs and I think that it makes sense for the mechanic to work that way. This does not mean that cooldowns are the only answer for every problem, nor should they be. We should be thinking of a varity of resource-management mechanics that the game employs for different classes; it makes for a more interesting game and one that is ultimately more fun.

 

One of the examples that I like to always give is for the game, Starcraft. One of the very unique aspects of that game is that while each race is balanced in any fight, they each employ very different mechanics and strategies in combat. Using one strategy for all the different races would not make sense in that game: players would lose if they used the same strategy across the three races. Certain players thus become "experts" in certain races and learn how to best utilize the mechanics of that race to their advantage. I would love a RPG game to learn from this and try to make their classes as different as possible in terms of play style and resource management. It makes a game a much deeper and fulfilling experience when each class has to follow a different strategy.

Edited by Hormalakh

My blog is where I'm keeping a record of all of my suggestions and bug mentions.

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/  UPDATED 9/26/2014

My DXdiag:

http://hormalakh.blogspot.com/2014/08/beta-begins-v257.html

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That was one of the questions I asked about in my interview which I never got back (still prodding them via email), whether the classes would use homogenous systems.

 

That may still be the case, we don't know.

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To me, the vancian system is such a pain to use, that I generally avoid casters. I would have one healer, and one offensive caster for those encounters that absolutely need elemental damage, or AOE. Preferably these would be the same character. But otherwise having a fighter, rogue or ranged attacker was much more enjoyable. Having to open up a spell-book, prepare and rest for so often breaks up the gameplay in a way that just isn't tolerable.

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