The Power of the Philosopher in PE

[Rahkir]

I hope the role of scholars and philosophers is an important one in PE. If the soul is a resource that can physically manifest and be controlled, philosophy, as practiced by many thinkers, would hold a lot more practical power (not to understate the profound impact philosophy has had on the world, and while one could argue philosophy can drive people to power, philosophy (a love of knowledge) itself does not kill or manifest upon the world in the way matter does; one cannot rule the world with philosophy alone). If you look at philosophers from our universe, take Socrates, for example, he seems to be the embodiment of a Cipher; using the elenchus and dialectic to "control" or "invade" the souls of others, or as some would say, to corrupt the souls of others. Obviously the world of PE will have its own philosophers and cultures, but this is fun to imagine:

 

Early Western/Ancient Greek Philosophers sought rational and logical explanations for an ordered universe. The soul as an eternal, wise ruler, which holds all knowledge for humans to recollect (almost makes me think of D&D sorcerer). Complete order and control over the body's appetitive nature, or the lesser emotions and feelings: hunger, thirst, pain, pleasure, etc. to unlock the true potential of the soul. Emphasis on a fundamental, indivisible, unit of matter that makes up the world (interesting connotations for Wizards, Priests, and well, everyone (imagine if Lemaitre could manipulate or manifest a primeval atom?)). Their detailed analysis of paradoxes could lead to inventive manipulations of the soul. Pythagoras is said to have claimed that he recalled prior his prior lives with the same soul (perhaps he was awakened!).

 

Early Eastern Philosophers, very vaguely and generally (which I would argue is bad philosophy on my part!), believed all things are soul; all things should be respected for their potential. Acceptance of other paths. Extreme levels of neutrality; emotions and the corporeal are inconsequential overall. Moments of enlightenment or satori (in PE, bursts of incredible power, if the soul is what grants power; where the body stops and the soul starts becomes an illusory blur; almost akin to divine possession, but from within, or something similar). Many paths through life and many paths to achieving positive upward reincarnation. Behavior of soul in prior lives imparts certain circumstances onto soul in later lives. Enlightened, or awakened, souls remember the events of past incarnations.

 

What would the ideas of Descartes bring to bear on the clear existence of a soul? What of Nietzsche? Are desires and emotions felt in the soul or elsewhere? Is the soul in a state conflict like a human? e.g. I shouldn't eat that cupcake because it's bad for me, but I'm going to do it anyway! (Two different and seemingly conflicting desires within one stuff). Is the soul the center of emotions and rationality or neither? What of Camus (on a side note, I can imagine Camus very much as a noble paladin crusading against the absurd)? Or Russell? It's incredibly interesting to imagine...

 

I think the moral dilemmas that can be raised with "soul-ism" are profound and far reaching; perhaps even more poignant than trying to make moral quandaries with sexism or racism in a modern sense. A man is not less than a woman because of his capabilities as a man, but because his soul is lesser. Dwarves are not lesser than humans because they are dwarves (necessarily), but because all or most dwarves receive inferior souls. As in a reincarnation hierarchy; which leads to the question, what is the greatest incarnation for a soul to exhibit? If there is a quantifiable aspect of souls it puts a whole new spin on the value of life and existence. The possibility of fracturing a soul and so forth could be interestingly applied to many topics, e.g. suicide (to address the idea, "I want another chance/a better situation, so I'm going to off myself and hope for better luck next time.")

 

We started off BG with a quote from Nietzsche. Almost inherent in IE games are these strongly academic and scholarly, but entirely understandable, lines of inquiry and motivators of choice. What better realm than Eternity to explore and experiment with philosophy? I'm excited.

[saintstc]

That sounds great, there is potential for a lot of great ideas merging our philosophies with the PE world and the soul. In regards to moral dilemmas in PE, I think a Utilitarian philosphy could be implemented.

 

The Utilitarian equivalent may believe that all souls are merged together as one. With the right action being the one which gives greatest strength to the greatest number of souls. Prehaps an ideal philosphy for Palidins, they may strive to create a unified world where each individual acts in a way which strengthens or preserves the souls of the greatest number. However, this may involve destroying the soul of one or a few to strenghten the soul many. Is this morally 'right'?

 

I suppose Kantian or Aristotelian ethics could also be used in PE.

 

Oh yeah, Nietzsche would just say the soul is dead

[pl1982]

Fully agree with you Rahkir. As one is also versed in philosophy and passionate about it, I must say that this is a wonderful opportunity for the design and writing team of Obsidian to deliver not just a mature video game, but also one that (within the context and confines of its universe) explores deep scholarly aspects and weaves these into the game world itself (your examples are brilliant). I sincerely hope this is what PE will turn out to entail, ala Torment. For example: Mass Effect series is mature game and features some decent writing, but it is hardly what I would call a scholarly, truly philosophical game like Torment for example. Even though both games deal with certain moral and existentialist themes, Torment approaches it in a more philosophical manner where ME approaches the subject matter in more "pragmatic" or "application" manner.

 

Please Obsidian designers and writers, listen to what Rahkir has to say, I echo his suggestions. Don't give us a ME fantasy game, give us a Torment game (in terms of writing), but on an even bigger scale!

[Wombat]

What would the ideas of Descartes bring to bear on the clear existence of a soul? What of Nietzsche? Are desires and emotions felt in the soul or elsewhere? Is the soul in a state conflict like a human? e.g. I shouldn't eat that cupcake because it's bad for me, but I'm going to do it anyway! (Two different and seemingly conflicting desires within one stuff). Is the soul the center of emotions and rationality or neither? What of Camus (on a side note, I can imagine Camus very much as a noble paladin crusading against the absurd)? Or Russell? It's incredibly interesting to imagine...

Actually, with your interpretation, the image Camus has depicted in Le Mythe de Sisyphe wouldn't be possible. For, there will be no rebel against deity by Sisyphe since he can overcome it both philosophically and physically. In such scenario, if he could rebel against something, it would be he, himself, which, I think, is more or less Nietzchean. Then again, if such thought itself had physical power more than as literature or art, then, their conflict would disappear like in a shape of enlightenment in Buddhism (The base Eastern philosophy didn't have this concept but eternal reincarnations) or something like Plato's philosopher king. Camus or Nietzsche, they used factors from Greek literature and Christian theology (mythology?) - so-called God complex - as the power of their "literature."* So, probably, in the PE world, there is no objectively known way to discern why there is the inequality in "souls."

 

In any case, I think Western philosophy has been greatly influenced by monotheism and its "powerful" God and it is tough to wipe off theological influence in it. Note that ancient Greek expressed tragedy as literature rather than philosophy. Post-Christianization West, God has influenced in many areas such as science, politics and literature of Western cultures (e.g. philosophia ancilla theologiae). In fact, even in games - D&D is one example - even in a "pagan" setting, people still try to see through one-solid morality code rather than even trying to simulate various viewpoints/moral codes (Rune Quest did this in a very conscious manner).

 

So, what I expect is that some stories behind each individual/culture, some of which will be more logically constricted like the basis of science while some others can be more of literature. The problem in the PE world, the "soul" plays as an irregular factor, which makes it difficult for its inhabitants to discern religion, philosophy, literature (fiction) and science as we do. Guess there are quite a room in which the writer team to toy with ideas.

 

*Nietzsche is often mocked as failed poet by philosophers.

[MantisDreaming]

I think PE is poised to offer exactly this to those that seek it. I trust what lies at the heart of this discussion is at least a part of what Obsidian is talking about when it comes to mature themes. Mass media hears "mature themes" and assumes: sex, violence, drugs, racism, etc. Never is it the existential issues such as the nature of the Self, the question of reality, life & death, reincarnation and so on.

 

We already know that the people of PE know full well that there are souls and life after death. Now imagine the existential questions that would arise within a world where these conditions exist! We've got some excellent writers at the helm of this one so make no mistake there will surely be some scholarly material for We, the champions of Wisdom!

[Ninjamestari]

Way to kill the appeal of philosophy "Rarrrrr, I'm a philosopher! Tremble before my might!!"

 

No, just no no no no no!!

[Nonek]

There should be a clear delineation between what is known and what is believed. So although the people of Eternity know that souls may be reborn and there is a measure of immortality in that, they are neither sure of the mechanic or what controls such a state, thus they remain in that most interesting of positions, uncertainty. So for that peasant labouring in misery, there is too much of a risk in ending his life and seeking a new position in the wheel, he has hope for tomorrow and that is more real to him than an uncertain future.

 

The philospher may seek to extend his knowledge of the metaphysical, but short of the ultimate sacrifice, he faces the exact same quandry as that peasant. And here is where otherworldly eminences prove their attraction, standing beyond the concerns of the flesh, they may hold the truth that a seeker desires or lies that suit their agenda. Or maybe they are nothing but false lights in the heavens.

[Rahkir]

Actually, with your interpretation, the image Camus has depicted in Le Mythe de Sisyphe wouldn't be possible. For, there will be no rebel against deity by Sisyphe since he can overcome it both philosophically and physically. In such scenario, if he could rebel against something, it would be he, himself, which, I think, is more or less Nietzchean. Then again, if such thought itself had physical power more than as literature or art, then, their conflict would disappear like in a shape of enlightenment in Buddhism (The base Eastern philosophy didn't have this concept but eternal reincarnations) or something like Plato's philosopher king. Camus or Nietzsche, they used factors from Greek literature and Christian theology (mythology?) - so-called God complex - as the power of their "literature."* So, probably, in the PE world, there is no objectively known way to discern why there is the inequality in "souls."

 

[...]

 

So, what I expect is that some stories behind each individual/culture, some of which will be more logically constricted like the basis of science while some others can be more of literature. The problem in the PE world, the "soul" plays as an irregular factor, which makes it difficult for its inhabitants to discern religion, philosophy, literature (fiction) and science as we do. Guess there are quite a room in which the writer team to toy with ideas.

 

I think Camus' concept of philosophical suicide fits perfectly into this universe. For the absurd to exist, man must also exist. Camus claims that the common person (office workers, etc.) of reality unknowingly exists every bit as absurdly as an absurd hero, and only by acknowledging our true state of absurdity can we escape the loop and be in a state of eudaimonia. The mysteries of the soul are not well understood in PE. While reincarnation seems somehow empirically present, can you not imagine a similarity between Sisyphus and a life in PE? To push through life until the end, only to be sent back and repeat it all over again. Like the conqueror, the artist, the seducer, an absurd man must realize his actions are akin to acting, and actions have no real meaning; this is all the more relevant if one literally lives the death of Sisyphus.

 

It is unclear to me what death is in PE (something like in the phaedo​; death simply as the separation of soul and body? It seems more complex than that with the idea of fracturing, etc.). Sisyphus was called an absurd hero for his scorn of the gods, rebellion against Death (capital D), hatred of death and passion for life. What is real death? What causes a soul to leave the body? The gods (Death)? What is it to really live? Is it better to remain living in a body, or is it better in transition; awaiting a new body? I think the ideas expressed in the Myth of Sispyhus can easily be carried out in PE, to an even deeper and more scientific extent, perhaps.

 

There does seem to be a distinction between science, metaphysics, thinkers, playwrights, etc. in PE. Taken from The Official, Unofficial, BoM Project Eternity Information Thread! On souls:

 

The mortal world has not unlocked all of the secrets of how souls "work" and differing schools of metaphysical philosophy can be found in virtually every culture. What is known is that sapient souls move through an endless cycle of waking life and purgatorial slumber among the gods. Often this slumber lasts for years of "real" time, but occasionally it is brief, with a soul immediately moving on to a new life.

 

Far from being a flawless process, souls are subject to "fracturing" over generations, transforming in myriad ways, and not quite... working right. Some cultures and individuals place a high value on "strong" souls, souls with a "pure" lineage, "awakened" souls that remember past lives, "traveled" souls that have drifted through the divine realms, or those that co-exist with other souls in one body. However, the opposite is also true, resulting in negative discrimination and sometimes outright violence.

 

Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical. Having a strong soul seems to make this easier, but sometimes even people with fragmented souls are able to accomplish the extraordinary. The individual's body seems to act as a conduit and battery for this power, drawing in replenishment from seemingly omnipresent "fields" of unbound spiritual energy in the world around them.

 

Thinkers, spiritualists, and scientists of the world have theorized for thousands of years about the nature and purpose of this process, but others have turned to prayer for answer. Rather than illuminate the presumed higher purpose of this cycle, the gods have obfuscated the truth, at times spreading cosmological lies, pitting believers and empowered chosen agents against each other, and tacitly approving the prejudices of their followers to maintain power.

 

Whatever the fundamental nature of mortal souls is, the people of the world accept the reality of what they have observed: that all mortal bodies contain perceptible energy bound to the individual, and that once they die, their energy will move forward in the eternal cycle that they are all a part of -- that as far as they know, they have always been a part of.

 

 

 

I agree with you, though; it will leave a lot of room for experimentation with ideas and concepts by the writers; I look forward to see what they bring.

 

Way to kill the appeal of philosophy "Rarrrrr, I'm a philosopher! Tremble before my might!!"

 

No, just no no no no no!!

 

What is the appeal of philosophy to you? Philosophers throughout history have claimed to try and describe, identify (and often explain) the right way to do things; morality, ethics, etc. rely on objective standards of judgement, meaning some people are doing things wrong. But the right way to do things does not have to be "Rawr I am all powerful, tremble before me and do as I command right!" Can you really imagine the Gautama Buddha saying that? Or the Dalai Lama?

[Darth Trethon]

Interesting post up to the point of the sexism bit where as I see it you make a drastically sexist remark claimed almost as absolute.......I don't think evolved souls would pick a gender due to higher understanding if they even have any control over gender, which I'm inclined to doubt, but for what they want to achieve in that life. Your remark there seems based on a large all encompassing stereotype that all males are at their core the same.....both genders have had extraordinary achievers and visionaries as well as more than enough of less than representative members.

[Gyor]

I think the philosphy will be primarily based on the middle ages, so Renassance Philosphers and beyond won't of much influence. Most of the influence will be middle ages philosphers and in turn the ancients who influenced thier thinking. St. Augustus was before the middle ages of his ideas were very influencial. Also to take into account that this will be influenced a very different religious situation. Polytheism is more common and reincarnion is an established fact. They may want too look at Indian philosphers of the same period including these interested in Tantric practices as well as European philosphers.

[Rahkir]

I was trying to say that the gender of the body a soul inhabits does not have to be relevant at all to the soul; it could go both ways. I used the example of male and female, in a specific sense: one male is not worse or better than one female because of gender, but because of the soul that inhabits the body. It's interesting to imply 'better' souls would incarnate in one of the genders, but I don't think that would make for a very fun world. The point of what I said is: if the gender of a body is irrelevant to the soul (there is no male or female soul), then the power and potential of a person, as far as soul manifestation goes, would be based completely separate of gender. Like Socrates' ruling class in the Republic; the knowledge in a soul makes no distinction between gender.

That said, I'm sure people could still find ways to be sexist, it would just be different than the way we think of sexism today. (And there's nothing to stop people from believing all males receive inferior souls, even if they are wrong.)

 

Edit, @Gyor, this is a fantasy world, not an Earth-based Renaissance with magic, at least that's what I thought. So there's no need to arbitrarily limit ourselves to the thought processes of ancient humans, or humans of a specific locale/culture. We have all different races at different technological points in PE.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Rahkir

[Darth Trethon]

I was trying to say that the gender of the body a soul inhabits does not have to be relevant at all to the soul; it could go both ways. I used the example of male and female, in a specific sense: one male is not worse or better than one female because of gender, but because of the soul that inhabits the body. It's interesting to imply 'better' souls would incarnate in one of the genders, but I don't think that would make for a very fun world. The point of what I said is: if the gender of a body is irrelevant to the soul (there is no male or female soul), then the power and potential of a person, as far as soul manifestation goes, would be based completely separate of gender. Like Socrates' ruling class in the Republic; the knowledge in a soul makes no distinction between gender.

That said, I'm sure people could still find ways to be sexist, it would just be different than the way we think of sexism today. (And there's nothing to stop people from believing all males receive inferior souls, even if they are wrong.)

 

Edit, @Gyor, this is a fantasy world, not an Earth-based Renaissance with magic, at least that's what I thought. So there's no need to arbitrarily limit ourselves to the thought processes of ancient humans, or humans of a specific locale/culture. We have all different races at different technological points in PE.

 

That makes sense, I suppose that can be read both ways and it did seem a bit cross with the rest of your post. I was never too fond of the old philosophers' beliefs. They brought interesting points at times but I mostly viewed a lot of that as too disconnected from what may fit with the real.

[Wombat]

 

Whatever the fundamental nature of mortal souls is, the people of the world accept the reality of what they have observed: that all mortal bodies contain perceptible energy bound to the individual, and that once they die, their energy will move forward in the eternal cycle that they are all a part of -- that as far as they know, they have always been a part of.

I see. If you think there should be a limitation of power, especially with the mortality, then, there shouldn't be much problem. If being influential with the soul of the power doesn't necessarily to be connected to human/philosophical maturity, then, the PE world has something we can sympathize with. However, if the philosophical maturity comes with some real powers, then, the world suddenly becomes somehow "explanative" to the eyes of the philosophers. Here again, the incomprehensiveness of the existence of the soul-favored people can play a role. Even if some people who happen to be favored by "soul" power may develop their idiosyncrasies by exploring their philosophy and physical power and, maybe, nobody can tell whether they are mad or genius.

 

The mortality as a limit is one of the universal questions while I'm not sure of absurdity. the Renaissance admired the reason of human being, probably too much in the process of gaining systematic knowledge as the replacement of the coming absence of God. Eventually, intellectuals have come to the study of madness such through psychology and philosophy. There was an era of disappointment of modern western intellectuals to human reason. Camus used this as a theme of his works. I think, such heroism still dragged the image of the Renaissance man. For, ancient Greeks seem to have accepted madness as a part of their existence: For them, human beings are originally born full of contradictions and dilemma however learned they are.

[Parmenides]

I predict much of the philosophy in Project Eternity will come strait out of Plato. Maybe I'll do a "see I told you so" after the game comes out.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Parmenides