Multi-Classing

[ArchBeast]

For ONE multiclass that was exclusive to ONE race. That is not true of ALL multiclasses. Therefore, by this reasoning, you would admit 2E multiclassing was NOT overpowered in IWD:HoW?

 

I only admit that is nice that they fix this bug nothing more.

 

I Dont knot what 2E system is i played only BG and IceWind Dale 2 (older 2d games). And use them as reference piont.

 

BG milticlass came from a few things

 

The reason of my thinking is :

 

1. Stat rolling and idea of Stat based classes (when you roll stats you can thake even 16 to every stat) So basicly if you multi class is useing more then 1 stat and you roll them until you get 18, evrywon is overpowerd

 

2. Exp penalty, Why they but exp penalty if multiclasses are not overpowerd for fun ?

 

3. Becouse some CLASSES where overpowerd, Fighter-Archers are overpowerd over everywon, melee-fighters can smash melee-hunters and melee-paladins in clouse fight. When mages run of spells they are worthless and clerics where in evry way better then druids.

 

4. Becouse if you had Fighter/priest fighting the same lvl Fighter or priest he will allways WIN.Mage/Priest can swing spells more longer then even pure mage specialist. etc.

 

Ofcurse this is only my opinion so don't get mad if you disagree.

Edited October 15, 2012 by ArchBeast

[Shevek]

1. I doubt stat rolling will be in PE. Chances are they will go point buy. Also god stats made single characters op too.

 

2. I do not understand your question. There was no xp penalty for mc in 2e. There were other penalties. Your saves, thac0, hp and spell level tended to be lackluster but acceptable.

 

3. You are mixing issues and muddying the discussion. Stick to mc issues.

 

4. You are ignoring some of the nuances of the 2e system. See, early on, you could achieve similar levels in you mc as a single class because the single class fighter has not got many profs or gotten many attacks per round and cleric has very few spells. Once you hit level 7 or 8, the xp table ramp up. The 2e system was very elegant in this way. When you compare characters, do not compare their levels. Look at their saves, spells, ho thac0, attacks per round, etc. It actually works out very well.

 

[ArchBeast]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePY0MkjhZls

 

here you got fight

gnome cleric/mage vs Sarevok

 

 

And tell my know that pure mage or pure cleric will able to do the same thing (and so quickly)

[quechn1tlan]

Multiclass is weaker in NWN? Tell that to my scythe-wielding Fighter 4\ Bard 1\ RDD 10\ Weapon Master 7.

 

Jokes aside, I do want to have multiclassing. Close to NWN 2. Where you had nigh-endless possibilities of class combinations. T'was my favourite part.

[elminster]

Most important: first establish all 11 (!) classes in a more or less balanced way: There are 5 physically figthing classes (figther, barbarian, monk, paladin, ranger), 4 spellcasting classes (priest, druid, wizard, chanter), and the rogue and the cipher.

 

I would allow only dualclassing between different groups, so allow f.e. barbarian/priest but not priest/wizard (I hate even the idea that this would go). If the cipher is dualclassing available depends on the realized class. Priest/rogue not allowed (no thief can be a priest) If we include the cipher that means 37 dualclasses, 43 tripleclasses and 15 fourthclasses - 106 possibilities total

 

It would be fine if about half of them, lets say 50 possibilities could be technically realised. I'd like to try monk/mage if its realized (yes it could be overpowered like the kensai).

 

Just let the exp / lvl be about linear - if not you risk that playing dualclass is almost xpfree when leveling one class only weakly. A special exp gap just for being multiclassing would be fine as well. It could be exp for about 2 levels.

[ArchBeast]

I would allow only dualclassing between different groups, so allow f.e. barbarian/priest

 

This whould only work if we have some kind of "fury" or "Savege" god if yes then why no. i mean barbarian/priest multiclass.

 

but not priest/wizard (I hate even the idea that this would go).

 

I can't agree, i think that priest and mage can by done (some king of priest of god of magic) and priest is useing diffrent magic than wizard. Wizard/ sorcerer is ridicilus but not priest/mage.

 

The problem is the amount of spell if we crate BG style priest/mage it will be master in both and be better then pure mage and priest. I think that only possible explonation is 1/2 of priest and 1/2 of wizard of their abilitis and known spells (not spell progression or we end up with nwn weeken multiclassing)

Priest/rogue not allowed (no thief can be a priest)

 

 

If there is god of stealing, sneaking or tricks then this multi is reasonable.

 

A also think tkat multiclassers like warrior/paladin, warrior/barberian or mage/warlok etc is mistake.

Edited October 15, 2012 by ArchBeast

[Shevek]

here you got fight

gnome cleric/mage vs Sarevok

 

 

And tell my know that pure mage or pure cleric will able to do the same thing (and so quickly)

 

Who says all class combinations should be able to do the same thing or do things at the same speed? A pureclass mage or cleric has the advantage of getting access to high level spells at earlier levels and therefore have different options available earlier. That is their benefit. They tend to have a higher caster level too (not to mention generally better saves and chances to get stuff to land). This means single class characters get their spells at max levels faster. Frankly, I see nothing wrong with that Sarevok fight (though I do wonder if that guy removed the xp cap). He played will, used his scrolls, item swapped as needed, and so on. That is a player playing well.

 

I will say there is a balance issue in ToB's high level play. However, look at the ENTIRE experience prior to ToB - beginning at BG1 (89k), to BG1 w/ TotSC (161k XP) to BG2 (2.95 mil). Prior to around clvl ~20, this all works out very well. Yes, balance breaks down in BG2:ToB because players reach levels that are god like (the cap is a whopping 8 mil). Well, surprise surprise, most game systems break down after a certain point and givng players the powers of demigods is generally when that starts to happen (other game systems that break down is things like, oh, I dunno, armor, saves, and so on).

 

3E has the same issue only worse. I would argue 3E multiclassing is grossly unbalanced at post 20 levels since players can simply splash another PrC to synergize even more broken abilities in their builds.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Shevek

[wincult]

I'd prefer not multi-classing by itself, but having possibility to go on with Prestige Classes (in the specialization tree manner) after certain levels, e.g.:

1. you choose your main class in the beginning

2. you choose 1st prestige class starting 4th level (this class is obtained from the list, correspondin to your main class - let's say 3 options)

3. you choose 2nd prestige class starting 10th level (this class is obtained from the list, corresponding to your 1st prestige class, let's say 3 options for each)

4. you choose 3rd specialization class starting 18th level (this class is obtained from the list, correspondin to your 2nd prestige class, let's say another 3 options)

5. etc.....

 

The idea would be, that there are prestige classes, which have according pre-requisites and it is the only way to multi-class (i.e after you choose mage, you won't become mage/fighter, but you could decide to become battlemage, instead of being pure mage)

[BakaPope]

I like multi-classing's concept, but sometimes it isn't done right. In a game like this I wouldn't want it to turn into Skyrim and be a sneaky mage in heavy armor, that's great in Skyrim but not everything needs to be the same. I guess you could say I want specializations, stuff that kinda branches off from the main class because of another class' influence but still being rooted in that specific class; and for it to happen not too early, you need to establish your character before you do advanced development. Say you have a rogue, you level him up to level 12. You then can choose like one of two broad branches, delve into more brutal physical attacks or add some magical effects to your arsenal. After that you could expand the branches even further creating a very distinct specialized character.

[Humanoid]

As an answer made in a vacuum back at the start of this drive, I would have unquestionably backed the idea of multi-classing. With the class inflation that's occurred over the numerous stretch goals, and as information about the skill system that's being revealed, I have to say I'm doing a complete about-turn and now prefer that it not be implemented. It's not a question of balance or optimisation, it's simply that I believe there's now plenty enough latitude within the individual classes to reasonably represent any character I would plan to create.

[Shevek]

As an answer made in a vacuum back at the start of this drive, I would have unquestionably backed the idea of multi-classing. With the class inflation that's occurred over the numerous stretch goals, and as information about the skill system that's being revealed, I have to say I'm doing a complete about-turn and now prefer that it not be implemented. It's not a question of balance or optimisation, it's simply that I believe there's now plenty enough latitude within the individual classes to reasonably represent any character I would plan to create.

 

Well, we do not know for sure how robust the skill/feat system will be. We certainly do not know enough to guess at how much wiggle room we will have with our characters. Also, while there are many new classes, all archetypes are most certainly not covered. I happen to really enjoy playing 2E-style fighter-mages. While we know that mages can apparently wear plate and there is an art image of a mage wielding a rapier, we do not know what the mage's "to-hit," damage modifiers, attack speed, attack abilities, etc are compared to martial classes. If the mage sucks at melee, I would like the option to make a hybridized character which sacrifices top-end arcane power for a significant boost to melee capability.