Automatic regeneration of hit points during combat

[teknoman2]

I... what?

 

That's not the system they've described at all. Your present HP does not determine your stamina cap.

 

As far as I know.

 

****, I'm not the one who can't read now, right? Right?

where did they say that it didnt? i make the logical assumption based on what i read so far

but even if your sp is not limited by the loss of hp, still you DON'T get back the lost hp in any way other than resting, and since you lose hp every time you get hit, even if you have endless sp in the end your character will die. more sp and its regeneration could allow you to keep fighting until your last hp without getting knocked out but it wont prevent your death

much like the armor in counter strike. it absorbs a part of the damage, but not all of it. you can have 80 armor left and be at 1hp

[Tamerlane]

I... what?

 

That's not the system they've described at all. Your present HP does not determine your stamina cap.

 

As far as I know.

 

****, I'm not the one who can't read now, right? Right?

where did they say that it didnt? i make the logical assumption based on what i read so far

but even if your sp is not limited by the loss of hp, still you DON'T get back the lost hp in any way other than resting, and since you lose hp every time you get hit, even if you have endless sp in the end your character will die. more sp and its regeneration could allow you to keep fighting until your last hp without getting knocked out but it wont prevent your death

much like the armor in counter strike. it absorbs a part of the damage, but not all of it. you can have 80 armor left and be at 1hp

I have to say I honestly did not expect this to be confusing to anyone. Here's an example. Bob the Fighter has 32 Stamina and 30 Health. He gets hit by a number of attacks that subtract 25 Stamina and 5 health (leaving him with 8 Stamina and 25 Health). He is a fighter, so he chooses to use one of his abilities to regenerate Stamina. He does this and quickly bounces from 8 Stamina to 15. Unfortunately, he gets smacked again for 20 Stamina and 4 Health. He is knocked out (effectively 0 Stamina) and at 21 Health. The guys who knocked him out move to other targets.

 

Francine the priest casts restore stamina on Bob when combat is over. He recovers to full Stamina quickly, but is still at 21 Health. Depending on how the next few fights go, they will either have to retreat to rest or find a safe resting spot up ahead.

Note that in that example, he starts with more stamina than HP. They have said nothing about tying max stamina to present HP.

 

Regardless, yes, someone running around with 100 stamina and 1 HP is a harsh stare away from dying.

[Mrakvampire]

What Nameless One did you play?

 

I replayed PST 4 times. Each time with different type of character.

[Mrakvampire]

Casual\Dumbed Down and it's a gameplay mechanic from a game of the 90 that is clearly hardcore oldschool?

 

EDIT: Is it so hard to imagine stamina as a limited damage reduction based off your beefiness?

 

I never played this 'game of the 90 that is clearly hardcore oldschool'. And if it has HP or Stamina (doesn't matter how it's called) regen - then it's definitely not hardcore oldschool rpg.

I played IE games (and others from golden age of RPG, like Fallout) and they had nothing to do with hp regen and with some silly addition like 2nd health bar. I understand, that developers have warm memories of Arcanum, but Arcanum combat and rpg system was really a mess (with redundant stats like Beauty, unbalanced skills and totally crazy unbalanced combat) - but trying to ressurect this idea of Stamina from Arcanum (yes, yes, you are correct I'm referencing Arcanum as I believe that roots of this 'idea' go no to 'that old game of 90' but to Arcanum)

[teknoman2]

you do realise of course, that all this is speculation, based on cryptic (at best) bits and pieces of not definitive information?

[Mrakvampire]

you do realise of course, that all this is speculation, based on cryptic (at best) bits and pieces of not definitive information?

 

From my point of view - it's better to make a statement for developers that not everybody are happy to jump into 'dumb-casual-train' of regenerating health and changes for the sake of changes. The earlier they will hear this, the better, as it could possible save a lot of time, that will be spent on silly and unnecessary experimentations with the system

[Semper]

So we basically have regenerating health, but only renamed and reflavored.

Basically they try to sell us the same casual and dumbed down mechanic under new name.

 

bascially you, and all the other tards arguing about it, are too dumb to understand. stamina would be like health IF the stamina bar has to be at zero first before you're losing health. this ain't the case because you'll lose hp as soon as you got hit, with no chance of regenerating besides resting. stamina is just another resource for skills and the ability to defend against strikes.

[Uomoz]

So D&d health system is not "dumbed down"? It's like the simplest system ever conceived yet you address it like is the ultimate form of hardcore old-school complexity.

 

In games you either avoid or mitigate damage. D&d use strong avoid mechanics (THAC0 and AC) and simple mitigate mechanics (Damage reduction \ resistances), PE will probably use strong mitigation mechanics (stamina) and unknown avoid mechanics. I see no "dumbing down", whilst I see possibly even more complexity.

 

I see a lot of unmotivated biased comments. Chill, people.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Uomoz

[Mrakvampire]

So D&d health system is not "dumbed down"? It's like the simplest system ever conceived yet you address it like is the ultimate form of hardcore old-school complexity.

 

HP system is not only D&D system. It was used in Fallout for example. If Obisidian have a lot of time and resources to invent new, balanced and fine-tuned system that will be better than proven by time systems - fine, ok, let them do it. But I really doubt it. They (I mean Troika of course) tried it with Arcanum and failed miserably. Want to experiment again? Ok, but don't call it 'Oh, we want to revive BG, IWD and PST'.

It would be better if Obsidian will focus on fine-tuning existing system and spend more time on story and quality control. But, again, maybe they simply have different priorities...

[Uomoz]

The difference between me and you then is: I trust OE in this. I think they'll conceive a very interesting system, NOT button-smashy, NOT dumbed-down, NOT DA style, where you CAN die from the first wolf you encounter out of the first city wall. I believe in them. I believe it will feel like BG\IWD\PST, even with new systems.

[Captain Shrek]

So D&d health system is not "dumbed down"? It's like the simplest system ever conceived yet you address it like is the ultimate form of hardcore old-school complexity.

 

In games you either avoid or mitigate damage. D&d use strong avoid mechanics (THAC0 and AC) and simple mitigate mechanics (Damage reduction \ resistances), PE will probably use strong mitigation mechanics (stamina) and unknown avoid mechanics. I see no "dumbing down", whilst I see possibly even more complexity.

 

I see a lot of unmotivated biased comments. Chill, people.

 

Really?

 

First of all: Health is a mechanics that has existed since ages. You probably don't understand the term dumbed down ( makes sense since you PROBABLY compared darklands to PE). It refers to reducing complexity of something. HP can't be dumbed down becuase it is one of the first.

 

Secondly, there is no DOUBT that it can be improved. However by putting a Health+ system like stamina as SEEMS to be indicated by PE expo, is hardly an improvement.

 

Let me describe to you in small words why Stamina in such a case is ALSO health (it can serve other purposes too) and dumbed down.

 

1) Your health does not deplete at the same rate when HIT as long as you have stamina = > Stamina acts as excess health.

2) Stamina regenerates RAPIDLY and there are spells to recover it which will PROBABLY be on cooldown (the last part is not certain; granted).

 

Combined this means that you have a de facto health shield (excess health; bonus hitpoints like condition) when you have stamina which is easiliy recoverable.

 

Also you fail at a basic level to understand why the stamina system exists,

 

The developers have pointed out multiple times that they do not want Rest "spamming" and save "scumming" (highly personal peferences as far as I understand and hardly meaningful it actually analysed). Stamina exists to counter the need to rest often.

 

Now it should be obvious that stamina WILL HAVE TO PREVENT health from being lost quickly or else it will defeat its own purpose for being introduced (rest "spamming").

 

Which means, YES stamina MUST function as health+ for some design goal to be satisfied.

 

Now that should be easier to comprehend I hope! Cheers~

Edited October 17, 2012 by Captain Shrek

[Uomoz]

Stop venting at me buddy, it's very uneffective xD.

 

Someone told that they were dumbing down the health system while this is untrue to say the least.

 

Also, you missed my point: it's not a "health" is damage mitigation. It's you and you only that are enforcing that view on yourself.

[Captain Shrek]

 

Also, you missed my point: it's not a "health" is damage mitigation. It's you and you only that are enforcing that view on yourself.

 

 

Saved for posteriority.

[Uomoz]

??? This guy.

[Mrakvampire]

The difference between me and you then is: I trust OE in this.

 

Yes, you are 100% right. I don't have so much faith in Obsidian, cause I've seen Arcanum already, and it was a mess (if we are talking about balance, combat and game rpg system).

[Elerond]

BG, BG2 and IWD all had automatic regeneration for health points during combat and outside of combat, this game will not have such regeneration.

Darklands was one most hardcore rpg ever and it's model for this game health/stamina system

Stamina don't protect your health anyway, stamina is independent resource which purpose is to create more tactical combat. Stamina resource can be found from many p&p rpg system which have more depth and are more hardcore to play as dumped down d&d systems which IE games used.

Arcanum is not Obsidian's game, Tim Cain is only one in project who had something to do with it. And Arcanum is one of the best crpg ever made.

 

And to reapeat myself

Every hit which character suffers decrease his/her/its health points and when health point are in zero character dies. Game will not at least have any common items (like healing potions), or common magic (cure health spells) to easily and rapidly regenerate health points back, and only common way to replenish them is resting. This causes health to become more strategic resource than what it was in IE games and especially on mode where zero hit points mean death sytem will be very hardcore in how it punishes player from losing health resource.

 

Stamina is additional resource added to game. It don't protect character from health lose any way and it decrease more rapidly than health from hits which character suffers. But losing stamina is not as punishing as losing health is, as game will have common items, abilities and spells to restore it rapidly and your character only faint to unconscious when stamina is zero and other characters will have abilities, spells and items to revive unconscious characters. Stamina may or may not have automatic regeneration, but that doesn't really matter in it case as it's per combat resource and it's regeneration rate will not be enough without spells, items and abilities to keep character from fallling to unconscious state. So stamina is tactical resource which you need to watch in combats, but in strategic perspective it regenerates so quickly (via abilities, spells, items and possible automatic regeneration) that it don't matter. But nonetheless it is resource that add depth to game.

 

Best part of this system is that there is no common healing magic to cause major problems with lore of the world.

[Grand_Commander13]

I never played this 'game of the 90 that is clearly hardcore oldschool'. And if it has HP or Stamina (doesn't matter how it's called) regen - then it's definitely not hardcore oldschool rpg.

I played IE games (and others from golden age of RPG, like Fallout) and they had nothing to do with hp regen and with some silly addition like 2nd health bar. I understand, that developers have warm memories of Arcanum, but Arcanum combat and rpg system was really a mess (with redundant stats like Beauty, unbalanced skills and totally crazy unbalanced combat) - but trying to ressurect this idea of Stamina from Arcanum (yes, yes, you are correct I'm referencing Arcanum as I believe that roots of this 'idea' go no to 'that old game of 90' but to Arcanum)

You don't even have any idea. Darklands is definitely old school and pretty hardcore (to give you an idea of how hardcore, Age of Decadence's developers have a particular fondness for it). Arcanum's Fatigue is nothing like the Stamina that PE will be using: Arcanum's Fatigue was something where weapons did separate damage to, was mainly used to limit spellcasting (whereas Project Eternity will use levels and cooldowns), and unless the enemy had drained it themselves or you specifically went for Fatigue-reduction wasn't something you'd drain often.

 

The entire point of stamina which can regenerate is so that the developers can accomplish a pair of goals:

1. The players can come to the brink of defeat in multiple fights in between rests.
    
   
2. There is no healing magic in the game.
   

If you don't include healing magic or some form of regenerating hit points, you're stuck with a bunch of fights that individually have no chance of defeating you—that is to say, a bunch of fights where you aren't ever in any danger of being defeated unless there's no way you can retreat and rest (which tends to get annoying and contrived after all).

 

We already have the non-regenerating Health as a way to force us to pace ourselves, why complain that your Stamina comes back when it's eliminating stupid gameplay?

Edited October 17, 2012 by Grand_Commander13

[anubite]

I've not played Darklands, I suppose I'll have to after this thread. More hardcore than anything? Forgive me for never having heard of it.

 

That said, I have played many other games that were not Darklands. They also had regenerating health. And they sucked.

 

Please admit that this system is at least similar to something like Mass Effect's health+shield system, where you have a rapidly recharging shield that is a buffer for your health, that can only be recovered with medical supplies. Because that's what it is.

 

If what makes this endurance system different is its ratio to health and its regeneration speed, then that's all what makes it different - unless there are more systems at play here than what they are telling us. How will injuries effect our ability to fight? How will health be recovered exactly? How much endurance should we expect to see, over life? Will we be able to increase only endurance? Or maximum life as well?

[Mrakvampire]

BG, BG2 and IWD all had automatic regeneration for health points during combat and outside of combat, this game will not have such regeneration.

 

Just lol.

[Captain Shrek]

BG, BG2 and IWD all had automatic regeneration for health points during combat and outside of combat, this game will not have such regeneration.

Darklands was one most hardcore rpg ever and it's model for this game health/stamina system

 

Arcanum is not Obsidian's game, Tim Cain is only one in project who had something to do with it. And Arcanum is one of the best crpg ever made.

 

 

You are joking, right. You are a troll, I hope for the sake of humanity.

[Captain Shrek]

 

We already have the non-regenerating Health as a way to force us to pace ourselves, why complain that your Stamina comes back when it's eliminating stupid gameplay?

 

 

Yes. IE gameplay was certainly stupid.

[Elerond]

BG, BG2 and IWD all had automatic regeneration for health points during combat and outside of combat, this game will not have such regeneration.

 

Just lol.

You should take better look how system in them work for character with high constitution.

[Captain Shrek]

BG, BG2 and IWD all had automatic regeneration for health points during combat and outside of combat, this game will not have such regeneration.

 

Just lol.

You should take better look how system in them work for character with high constitution.

 

Enlighten me please. How did High Con cause health to regenerate?

[Mrakvampire]

You should take better look how system in them work for character with high constitution.

 

Okkkay, maybe you will provide this insight on humble hamster?

Cause I played BG2... maybe 10-12 times, and I got character with 19 Constitution (max for dwarves) and hadn't got any kind of regen.

[Elerond]

BG, BG2 and IWD all had automatic regeneration for health points during combat and outside of combat, this game will not have such regeneration.

 

Just lol.

You should take better look how system in them work for character with high constitution.

 

Enlighten me please. How did High Con cause health to regenerate?

If character has 20+ con s/he will get per turn health regeneration.