Suggestion: setting up camp as risky and more than a rest button

[Shevek]

I love the new proposed magic system. Some spell charges recharge over time and others are regained through rest. It is a system that I think makes alot of sense. It reminds me of the 4E encounter skills and daily skills. Still, now there is the issue of rest and how the devs will avoid the original issue of rest spam.

 

 

The issue of rest spam arises when rest is but a simple button the player presses and is then instantly transported 8 hours into the future. If he is ambushed, the player can simply reload to a quicksave taken just before rest.

 

I have a couple thoughts on this:

1. Resting should be a RISK

2. Resting could be an oppurtunity to add an interesting layer of gameplay

 

1. Resting should be a RISK

 

Setting up a camp should only be done when one MUST. Players should be so exhausted that they should take the RISK to sleep in a dark forest/dungeon/alternate plane/whatever when common sense suggests that such action would be foolish. The IE games tried to do this through random ambushes and the like. I would argue that this should be expanded upon and that negative consequences should not be something that is easily trivialized. How so? I do not know.

 

Whatever the devs do, the player should always weigh the risks of resting against its benefits. It may be safer to rest in the day in some areas or at night in others depending on what creatures inhabit which areas. The upper levels of the dungeon may be safer than the lower levels. It may be safer to rest in a place where players could bar a door and enclose themselves in a room, etc.

 

 

They may consider adding skill checks (survival? dungeoneering?) but that may lead to some skills becoming "must haves" (bad thing?) so who knows.

 

 

2. Resting could be an oppurtunity to add an interesting layer of gameplay

 

This is a somewhat silly suggestion but I wanted to toss it out there. Again, I put the following merely as a humble suggestion. I am sure that whatever the devs do will be just wonderful. Everything we have heard so far has sounded better and better.

 

Anywho, as cRPG gamer, I have often wondered why rest tends to be relegated to being a simple rest button. Setting up camp and interacting around a warm fire are things that are often fairly prominently portrayed in most fantasy fiction.

 

 

It would be interesting if, at camp, players could do things like ACTIVELY tend to wounds, treat afflictions, have npc interactions, and so on. It could look cool too. You initiate rest, a small campfire appears (if it is dark), your companions gather about and go into camp mode to decide what to do with the current rest session.

 

This opens up some possibilities. One of the party may be suffering from a disease and this could be a time to treat it prior to moving on. You could interact with NPCs here and they might also interact with one another. If there is fatigue, those who are more tired may rest more while those with more vigor may be chosen to gather herbs or take a turn at the night watch. Certainly, I am not advocating ALL or even ANY of these things. I am just spit balling ways to make rest more than a rest button.

 

Obviously, if players rest very often this kind of thing would be a hindrance to gameplay and an annoyance. Still, if a player does this only a few times during a given play session, I think it could be pretty cool.

[TrashMan]

You can remove the "annoyance" factor by having a "default" camp deployment.

[Vargr]

Definitely like this. Camping has been a missed opportunity most of the time in games.

 

Ugh... sincerely hope we get NOTHING like the Rest mechanic in NWN and NWN2. Far too spammable, and removes much of the tactical thinking.

[TrashMan]

More like DA:O camp,..with more options on what to do in it.

[Vargr]

More like DA:O camp,..with more options on what to do in it.

 

As long as the campsite isn't identical no matter where on the worldmap you make camp. That always bugged the hell outta me in DA:O.

 

If anyone ever played SWG, THAT game had a nice camp system, in my opinion. When you were out hunting or whatever, camp was the only place you could heal wounds and buff up, etc. Camping actually had a use. And it was cool. My character always being invested in the Scout profession, would set up a camp big enough to accomodate the party, and it was especially nice at night time, with torches illuminating the camp. And the smoke could be seen from a fair distance too, so if you were NOT a scout and needed healing or whatever, seeing the smoke from a distant campsite could be a nice surprise.

 

 

Uhh... what were we talking about?

 

So, uh, yeah. More to do in camp = Good.

[GhoulishVisage]

I like the idea of being able to set traps in order to decrease the chance of being ambushed.

This doesn't mean you have to go and physically set the traps yourself, instead once you have decided to set up camp the game will give you the option to set traps automatically if there is someone in the party with the necessary skills (eg ranger) and if you have the required components or pre-made traps.

[Shevek]

As long as the campsite isn't identical no matter where on the worldmap you make camp. That always bugged the hell outta me in DA:O.

 

I would say the campsite is wherever you set up camp. The view would just show your campsite from the same isometric perspective as you play the rest of the game. Though a camping UI or menu system might pop up to the side.

 

When you were out hunting or whatever, camp was the only place you could heal wounds and buff up, etc. Camping actually had a use.

 

Thats exactly what I am talking about. Tieing rest to more game systems and making it more than a simple rest button.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Shevek

[Rabain]

I think the system they talked about in Update 16 kind of removes the need to worry about a Rest mechanic that becomes meaningless or spammable like in previous games. If you can use spells again in a longer battle then the need to Rest is reduced, therefore you won't feel like Resting requires some risk because you will rest much less often.

 

Also random events like ambushes can then be tied to travelling, night city encounters etc which make much more sense than being attacked in your camp. Seasoned adventurers are much less likely to be ambushed while resting if they take precautions such as a watch rotation, trapping the camp approaches or even just picking a defensible camp spot.

[Shevek]

I think the system they talked about in Update 16 kind of removes the need to worry about a Rest mechanic that becomes meaningless or spammable like in previous games. If you can use spells again in a longer battle then the need to Rest is reduced, therefore you won't feel like Resting requires some risk because you will rest much less often.

 

It reduces the need to rest but it does not eliminate it. Also, Sawyer mentioned at some point (damned if I can find it) that Cain had mentioned having a fondess for the RP value of a resting mechanic [i could be wrong about this; I have not been able to the quote]. Edit: I would argue that since less rest is needed, that makes including such a system as this a GOOD thing. Players would only need to do this from time to time when they need those higher tiered daily abilities or to deal with certain status ailments, fatigue, morale, etc etc (whatever forms of attrition the devs wish to throw at us).

 

Also random events like ambushes can then be tied to travelling, night city encounters etc which make much more sense than being attacked in your camp. Seasoned adventurers are much less likely to be ambushed while resting if they take precautions such as a watch rotation, trapping the camp approaches or even just picking a defensible camp spot.

 

Seasoned adventurers may not be caught unawares by weak targets. However, the player does not start off seasoned; he starts off at level one. Also, the player delves ever deeper into more dangerous terrain, he levels and so do his enemies. These enemies are then increasingly able to overcome the player's camp preparations. This is why skill checks for this sorta thing are required in pnp games.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Shevek

[rjshae]

I have a question along these lines. In D&D, wizards have had many options to make camp a safer experience. But it seems like that should be more the role of a priest. Why couldn't a cleric request supernatural aid to protect the resting party from danger? Say, calling upon a spirit that subtly steers aside potential threats, then warns the party if the threat still approaches.

[Shevek]

I have a question along these lines. In D&D, wizards have had many options to make camp a safer experience. But it seems like that should be more the role of a priest. Why couldn't a cleric request supernatural aid to protect the resting party from danger? Say, calling upon a spirit that subtly steers aside potential threats, then warns the party if the threat still approaches.

 

I think the Wizard spell you are thinking about is Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound. I am unsure if Clerics had anything similar in DnD.

 

Generally speaking, I figure there should be many ways to protect camp. Using survival skills, casting spells, setting traps, setting watch, etc etc could all help mitigate ambushes or lessen their impact. The key here is to ensure there are multiple ways of tackling that problem so any class has the ability to shine. Also, none of these solutions should invalidate or lessen the contribution of others (additive bonuses, in other words, that do not trivialize the challenge).

 

On a related note:

 

By making it so players mitigate attrition (fatigue, disease, etc, etc) at camp as opposed to just with spells or potions, you also bolster the usefulness of non-combat survival skills and allow multiple paths to success. The Heal Skill, for example, has been pretty much useless in every 3E game. Doing something like this might make that skill (and similar skills like Alchemy or Herbalism) actually useful. This gives the player an additional venue outside of combat to contribute the group's success.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Shevek

[mstark]

Loving the ideas! Doesn't necessarily have to be exactly in the way you have described them, but a system for making resting, which certainly has a lot of RP value, more interesting would be amazing.

[moridin84]

I think the system they talked about in Update 16 kind of removes the need to worry about a Rest mechanic that becomes meaningless or spammable like in previous games. If you can use spells again in a longer battle then the need to Rest is reduced, therefore you won't feel like Resting requires some risk because you will rest much less often.

Exactly. With this kind of system then I think it would be fine to be only able to rest in a village/town/DAO-like camp.

 

This is much better since you know that when you enter this dungeon you have X high level spells available to you until you leave. This means you have to consider, on a fight by fight basis, whether to use these spells or save them for a later fight.

[Shevek]

This is much better since you know that when you enter this dungeon you have X high level spells available to you until you leave. This means you have to consider, on a fight by fight basis, whether to use these spells or save them for a later fight.

 

I think we have to agree to disagree. I do not see how it is better to limit resting to inns - particularly in larger dungeons with Watcher's Keep in BG2 or when one travels long distances like the Cloakwood series (Cloakwood 1, 2, 3, 4, plus various levels of Cloakwood Mines) in BG1.

 

A good rest system would go a long way to improving various aspects of the game as well.

[moridin84]

This is much better since you know that when you enter this dungeon you have X high level spells available to you until you leave. This means you have to consider, on a fight by fight basis, whether to use these spells or save them for a later fight.

 

I think we have to agree to disagree. I do not see how it is better to limit resting to inns - particularly in larger dungeons with Watcher's Keep in BG2 or when one travels long distances like the Cloakwood series (Cloakwood 1, 2, 3, 4, plus various levels of Cloakwood Mines) in BG1.

 

A good rest system would go a long way to improving various aspects of the game as well.

Well 'safe areas' in large dungeons would be okay if needed. They could be fun 'RP' spots, similar to inns or camps.

 

I don't think the danger of being ambushed is enough of a deterrent to stop you resting whenever you want. At least with restricted rest areas, the developers will know how to properly balance the encounters.

 

Getting around the ambush resting thing is pretty easy afterall.

1. Save
   
2. Rest
   
3. Ambush
   
4. Load
   
5. Rest
   

Success!

Edited October 7, 2012 by moridin84

[Shevek]

Well, that save/load issue is not just for resting but for just about every aspect of the game (from randomizing loot, to boss encounters, to character death, to traps, to being ambushed during travel, to everything else). I concur its an issue (I acknowledged it in my original post) but the issue is not with resting it is with saving (hence why there is an ironman mode).

 

I would like to see the devs come up with a fix for the issue (beyond the no save mode) because if they simply remove everything that save/loading undermines, they would end up removing most of the game.

 

Perhaps save/loading is one of those things that gamers must police themselves from doing. If they do not, then they only really cheat themselves.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Shevek

[Sensuki]

I'd also like it to be reactive to the environment.

 

If you try and set up a camp in a dangerous area you might get attacked. So you need to try and find a safe place on the area map.

[metiman]

I'm beginnning to think that it doesn't matter what Josh or Tim actually say. Seems like many people would rather just believe in the kind of system they want as almost like an article of faith. Perhaps it's like religion or just intellectual hedonism. Many people choose to believe that x is true simply because it makes them happy to believe that x is true. I'll never understand that sort of thinking. I like to at least try to discover what is actually true, outside of my wishes and desires. As far as I can tell you guys are basically designing your own system here. While interesting, it has little to do with whatever system Obsidian is actually planning.

[Osvir]

I'm beginnning to think that it doesn't matter what Josh or Tim actually say. Seems like many people would rather just believe in the kind of system they want as almost like an article of faith. Perhaps it's like religion or just intellectual hedonism. Many people choose to believe that x is true simply because it makes them happy to believe that x is true. I'll never understand that sort of thinking. I like to at least try to discover what is actually true, outside of my wishes and desires. As far as I can tell you guys are basically designing your own system here. While interesting, it has little to do with whatever system Obsidian is actually planning.

 

I believe that this rest function is a good idea most likely we'll see something more simplified. But I'm sure that some of these ideas Obsidian is like "We want to do it, but can we?". My faith is that Obsidian will know what is best for the development. I am sure there are many ideas that are "We want to do it, we'll try it for another game". Most of all, I like to see it as we are limitless, corny as it sound we are aloof airy and we really need to get brought down to Earth with Obsidian saying (like you do to a little child) "No!". I am sure Project: Eternity is going to be some sort of indication of this "No".

 

For an example, this camping and resting function has probably reached it's peak as a function in a game like P:E. But who is to say that having an axe and cutting down trees to build your own house would not work? How far can the idea go? xD How do we know that Obsidian isn't already thinking about that. You see, our discussions help Obsidian think about thinks they might have thought about and discussed between themselves, it also help with giving ideas that they might not have thought about before. Also, what kind of ideas do they have that we haven't seen or thought about that they could combine (or no combining at all) with these ideas.

 

With that being said, what do you think of the Camp (as discussed in this thread) metiman?

[TrashMan]

I don't think the danger of being ambushed is enough of a deterrent to stop you resting whenever you want. At least with restricted rest areas, the developers will know how to properly balance the encounters.

 

Getting around the ambush resting thing is pretty easy afterall.

1. Save
   
2. Rest
   
3. Ambush
   
4. Load
   
5. Rest
   

Success!

 

 

Restrict areas where one can rest. Restrict areas one can save.

 

Peopel are too weak-willed to paly properly. I loved some older game (like X-Com) that didn't let you save during a mission.

If you re-loaded you had to do the whole thing over again.

 

Which is great. Forces you to actually play seriously.

Imagine if you can only save in camp!

[Osvir]

You can save in X-Com during the missions, I do it all the time.

 

Peopel are too weak-willed to paly properly.

 

Preference.

 

Only saving in Camp or at an Inn sounds all good. Hey, starts to sound like Final Fantasy now (When did they stop with the "Tent" in Final Fantasy by the way? xD maybe never did, I stopped playing Final Fantasy after number 11 pretty much).

[moridin84]

Well, that save/load issue is not just for resting but for just about every aspect of the game (from randomizing loot, to boss encounters, to character death, to traps, to being ambushed during travel, to everything else). I concur its an issue (I acknowledged it in my original post) but the issue is not with resting it is with saving (hence why there is an ironman mode).

I disagree.

 

I will generally save before a fight where I think I might die, I don't want to bother fighting through encounters I've already won, it would be boring. As such, I would save just before I rest because I have no idea what kind of fight I would get.

 

If you are already saving before hand, then actually fighting the ambush that you get is optional because you can just load and try again. The makes the ambushes nothing more then an inconvenience.

 

Inconvenient. That's all the rest-ambush mechanic becomes.

 

I would like to see the devs come up with a fix for the issue (beyond the no save mode) because if they simply remove everything that save/loading undermines, they would end up removing most of the game.

 

Perhaps save/loading is one of those things that gamers must police themselves from doing. If they do not, then they only really cheat themselves.

What specific things do you think the save/load mechanic 'undermines' beyond resting. Dialogue options and gambling I guess?

[Sensuki]

These days I save in case the game crashes.

[Osvir]

These days I save in case the game crashes.

 

Haha thank you :D had a good laugh

[moridin84]

These days I save in case the game crashes.

Funny you have a Witcher avatar. I remember that I stopped playing that because it crashed while I was in the middle saving, all the time.

Edited October 7, 2012 by moridin84