Turkey asks parliament to authorise military action in Syria immediately

[Gfted1]

Well, there are two kind of people in Turkey about that. One side is against the government as in whatever they do (Or that's the feeling that I got with last acts) and second are supporting the government with whatever they do. The first side was telling that "Government is ****ty, why they don't response? " until Turkey responded against Syria. Now they say "Why Turkey gave response to Syria, do they want war? There shouldn't be a war and etc." Second side is acting more careful, they don't want war but still supporting the government no matter what I believe. But if you want a general view, people don't want a war. And against it. But they don't want Syria to let their mortar bombs land in Turkey as well.

 

I meant, who do the people think is attacking Turkey? Syrian government, Kurds, rebels? And why? Accidental? To draw Trukey into a war? Another reason?

[Humodour]

When did I ever give an opinion on whether I like Turkey or not? I have no opinion on Turkey, good or bad. While we are throwing around wild accusations of terrorism for unknown attacks I could easily use a similar example of a recent border guard that got shot dead in New Mexico. We dont know who killed him, some even suggest it may be friendly fire, but since it was on the border of Mexico it must mean the Mexican goverment has engaged in terrorism against the US and is killing our innocents. Do you think we should carpet bomb Mexico in response?

 

Wow, you are really spinning things.

 

What you actually said (and what I was quite clearly responding to since this is the third time I've quoted you on it) was this:

 

The rebels should attack and goad Turkey into the fight on their side.

 

On a thread about Turkey being mortared by entities in Syria, killing 5 innocent women, you stated that the rebels should attack Turkey from Syria so as to scare it into attacking the Assad regime.

 

That sounds like a ringing endorsement of terrorism to me.

 

Anywho, my point was that Turkey is seemingly looking for any reason to go overboard. They have used artillary for three days straight on occupied targets to "avenge" a lone mortar attack that blew up some dirt, very possibly by accident.

 

2 women and 3 girls were killed in the village the mortar landed on, and the Syrians fired yet another shell after that one a few days later. So, are those 5 women just "some dirt"?

 

Oh, and those "occupied targets" Turkey has been firing on? They're occupied Assad regime military person. They're not civilians, they're seasoned, loyal members of a murderous regime that has slaughtered over 20,000 people in the past 1.5 years.

 

From that we can infer that it would take little to no actual deaths or damage to goad Turkey into a full scale attack on Syria

 

Turkey has been putting up with mortars, gunfire, planes being shot down, citizens being killed, and a refugee influx of 100,000 thousand Syrians (projected to be 200,000 to 300,000 by the end of the year) for one and a half years now. I should think that if Turkey were looking for any excuse to go to war with Syria, they would have done so by now.

 

Syrian rebels would be letting a golden opportunity pass where they could get Turkey to do what they themselves obviosly cannot do.

 

By committing acts of terror?

 

You responded:

 

Please try to pay attention between spastic outbursts.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443768804578038682267184060.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

 

The Syrian-fired mortar landed in the Turkish village of Asagipulluyazi, just over 50 yards away from the border in Hatay province at 7 p.m. local time, Turkish officials said. No one was hurt in the blast, which detonated less than six miles from camps built to hold Syrian refugees.

 

I am not going to take the bait of your personal attack Gfted, although it would be nice if you were above that as a moderator.

 

As has already been established in this thread numerous times, the first mortar to fall on Turkey (specifically Akçakale) in this latest round - the mortar which spawned this thread, this conversation, your post advocating that the rebels use terrorism, and which motivated the Turkish parliament to authorise military action against aggressor neighbours - well, that mortar killed a mother and her 3 daughters (aged between 8 and 14) as well as killing another woman. Another 13 people were injured - 3 lightly, 8 moderately, and 2 severely injured.

 

And you notably did not respond to my questions about your advocacy of terrorism. Specifically, you restated your belief that the Syrian rebels should attack a country uninvolved in their civil war so as to provoke it into a war with another country. My question, again, was: do you really support this course of action considering that what you are suggesting is terrorism?

[Raktul]

I meant, who do the people think is attacking Turkey? Syrian government, Kurds, rebels? And why? Accidental? To draw Trukey into a war? Another reason?

Ah, about that, people think that Syrian government is attacking Turkey. And they don't think it's accidental. At first, people wanted to believe they were accidental but today when a person open a newspaper page and read, they would see this "8 times can't be an accident." and stuff like that on the titles. They believe, Syria is try and see if Turkey has the heart to attack back or maybe even start up a fight. Most of them at least thinks that way.

[Gfted1]

I meant, who do the people think is attacking Turkey? Syrian government, Kurds, rebels? And why? Accidental? To draw Trukey into a war? Another reason?

Ah, about that, people think that Syrian government is attacking Turkey. And they don't think it's accidental. At first, people wanted to believe they were accidental but today when a person open a newspaper page and read, they would see this "8 times can't be an accident." and stuff like that on the titles. They believe, Syria is try and see if Turkey has the heart to attack back or maybe even start up a fight. Most of them at least thinks that way.

 

What would be gained by Syria attacking Turkey?

[Raktul]

Well, the problem would be international first of all. And I don't think that would be good for Syria, but I believe the gain of Syria or purpose of Syria at the moment is, proving that "What's happening at Syria is internal problem of Syria, Turkey stay away from Syria's internal problems and stop helping Syrian people runing away from borders as well as lend the Syrian people and rebels to us from your country.". I would go for the second option that I gave. Beside that they might be trying to prove that in political and military ways, they are upper classman of Turkey. So Turkey should respect them. That would be the second purpose or so.

Edited October 7, 2012 by Raktul

[obyknven]

Turkish war drums.

http://translate.goo...-655036-guncel/

 

[Hurlshort]

I really am interested in what would happen if Turkey did invade and successfully take over Syria. I would imagine they would try to set up a new government, similar to what the US did in Iraq and Afghanistan. I wonder if they would have more success, being a predominantly Muslim country. I would hope so.

 

Not that I want there to be a war, I'm just curious about what the end result would be. Also Syria's government is going to have be replaced at some point, you can't expect them to maintain power with their current trajectory.

[Raktul]

Turkish war drums.

http://translate.goo...-655036-guncel/

 

 

This is not Turkish war drums or army. This is an army created recently by a local Kurdish government at Syria.

 

@Hurlshot I believe, Turkey would be more succesful about USA but, there is a high possibility if Turkey invades Syria hypothetically, Turkey would try to end separatist kurdish forces located at North of Syria. And not just that, in my opinion, Turkey might try to change the borders as well, like moving borders downward for half an mile or so. If you ask me why, it's because of the today's borders. They are really worst kind of borders where you can't control your borders. Anybody can get in and get out easily, because you can't put a wire mesh. I'm not sure how to explain it, but think it this way. There are lots of mountains at south-east of Turkey, and just below that there is Syria border. So you can neither put a post that to protect who enters inside your border or not, for both sides nor you can put a mesh wire to prevent them to get in.

[Malcador]

I really am interested in what would happen if Turkey did invade and successfully take over Syria. I would imagine they would try to set up a new government, similar to what the US did in Iraq and Afghanistan. I wonder if they would have more success, being a predominantly Muslim country. I would hope so.

 

Not that I want there to be a war, I'm just curious about what the end result would be. Also Syria's government is going to have be replaced at some point, you can't expect them to maintain power with their current trajectory.

 

Not too sure about them actually succeding, really. Turkey's army is ~400,000 or so, not much larger than Syria's so that'd be a pretty nasty fight and a very hard occupation for them to maintain. Then again they could get NATO backing, but then Syria can get backing from others.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Malcador

[Hurlshort]

Not too sure about them actually succeding, really. Turkey's army is ~400,000 or so, not much larger than Syria's so that'd be a pretty nasty fight and a very hard occupation for them to maintain. Then again they could get NATO backing, but then Syria can get backing from others.

 

I would assume Turkey would get pretty substantial help from countries like the US. Who would back Syria?

[Raktul]

Turkish Army Forces have 715k soldiers under the name after the count at May 2012. It's second biggest army at NATO after US forces and Syria has 220k. Couldn't find a source for that though. Some say, they have 400k soldiers in their borders. Also, I'm not sure about whose technology better than other, but Syria has chemical weapons that they can use unlike Turkey.

[obyknven]

Not too sure about them actually succeding, really. Turkey's army is ~400,000 or so, not much larger than Syria's so that'd be a pretty nasty fight and a very hard occupation for them to maintain. Then again they could get NATO backing, but then Syria can get backing from others.

 

I would assume Turkey would get pretty substantial help from countries like the US. Who would back Syria?

Iran, Lebanon (Hezbollah) and Eurasian Union. In perspective Kurdish rebellion in Turkey and Shia rebellion in Iraq, Taliban rebellion in Afghanistan.

[Hurlshort]

Does Turkey really have that many enemies? It's one thing to frown upon the war, but I really doubt the Eurasian countries would jump to defend Syria. I doubt Iran would give full scale support either.

[obyknven]

Does Turkey really have that many enemies? It's one thing to frown upon the war, but I really doubt the Eurasian countries would jump to defend Syria. I doubt Iran would give full scale support either.

NATO have even more enemies. War against NATO is inevitable, it is a matter of our survival, peace can't be between us. Why not start this war now?

[Hurlshort]

Does Turkey really have that many enemies? It's one thing to frown upon the war, but I really doubt the Eurasian countries would jump to defend Syria. I doubt Iran would give full scale support either.

NATO have even more enemies. War against NATO is inevitable, it is a matter of our survival, peace can't be between us. Why not start this war now?

 

Heh, thought we were having a real conversation for a second, my bad

[Malcador]

Turkish Army Forces have 715k soldiers under the name after the count at May 2012. It's second biggest army at NATO after US forces and Syria has 220k. Couldn't find a source for that though. Some say, they have 400k soldiers in their borders. Also, I'm not sure about whose technology better than other, but Syria has chemical weapons that they can use unlike Turkey.

 

Based off Wikipedia anyway, gave total Armed Forces as 650k but only the Army would be of great use to actually occupy a country. But I'd assume regardless of exact numbers that Syria might be a match for Turkey should they invade or anything. Not saying they can't beat them, but it'd be pretty nasty.

[obyknven]

Does Turkey really have that many enemies? It's one thing to frown upon the war, but I really doubt the Eurasian countries would jump to defend Syria. I doubt Iran would give full scale support either.

NATO have even more enemies. War against NATO is inevitable, it is a matter of our survival, peace can't be between us. Why not start this war now?

 

Heh, thought we were having a real conversation for a second, my bad

Beware of Denyen bearing gifts.

 

We have no illusions about NATO nature. After USSR collapse NATO captures one country after another. Every Second we procrastinate our enemy gets that much stronger ...

[AGX-17]

Please tell me that you don't believe for a second that this has anything to do with Syria and everything to do with Turkey going after Kurdish separatists?

 

I assume the Kurdish issue has more to do with whatever resources may lie in Turkish Kurdistan than desperation to keep Kurds around, but I still don't understand the modern world's insistence that all current national borders (you know, the ones drawn by Western powers with no understanding of the tribal and cultural complexities of the regions they're setting the borders of,) be preserved no matter the cost. It's a bit of a tangent, but look at a country like Somaliland. It was an independent nation that willingly joined together with Somalia after colonial rule ended, and after Somalia's collapse it went back to being an independent, functioning state, but most of the world refuses to recognize it as such, despite the fact that it is a stable, functioning democracy untouched by the chaos of Somalia proper.

Edited October 9, 2012 by AGX-17