[Merged] Cooldowns 2.0

[Ieo]

I like the overall proposed implementation.

 

my biggest question is this: Why did they describe this system first and foremost as "cooldown based?" It sounds more like Vancian with a little cooldown flair to it.

 

There is no flexibility with the D&D Vancian system, and it's much harder to tweak across difficulty levels too. With the combined spell tier + grimoire cooldowns and scaling application by character level, that leaves a lot of room for tweaking... There's still one major variable missing, though, and that's soul. Hmmm. I hope they get creative with soul and not treat it as a pure mana bladder or something.

 

Kaz and Kairean (unsure about the latter's exact spelling, some newer people on the forums) suggested this in some other threads:

 

"Magic System Ideas" thread@Kairean:

http://forums.obsidi...c-system-ideas/

 

"Magic: Limited Casting?" thread, couldn't find Kaz post (I quote it in this thread):

http://forums.obsidi...imited-casting/

 

Short version:

A; Mage's use their own souls to cast magic (potential "Soul Sickness"? further additions and conclusions = casting too much of too high powered spells could kill your Mage).

B; Sucking the souls of your slain enemies to replenish.

 

Brilliant? Yes, imo.

 

The possibility of A sounds like a version of fatigue and also reminds us that soul has application for other classes. Feasible.

 

I'd rather not see B because that reminds me of mana drain powers like in MMOs (I'm sure they exist in SP somewhere too, but I don't remember/haven't seen it). There's something else I don't like about B but I can't put my finger on it at the moment...

[Infinitron]

Ahem:

 

 

If you're talking specifically about the Formspring link, that was already linked twice on the previous page.

 

Yeah, I assumed so, but this adds more context plus it's easy to link the image to other people.

[qstoffe]

Spells of particular levels may have a cooldown on that level. So once you've done a certain number of those abilities at that level the entire spell level goes into cooldown. Now how long that cooldown lasts...we're going to play with that. On short battles you probably won't be able to use those spells again' date=' but on long battles the cooldown will probably wear off and you'll be able to use those spells at that spell level again.

 

OMG! That is really, really bad. It's like they don't care for the combat in the old IE games at all?

 

I just can't believe they are going with a cooldown system. Being able to run out of spells was one of the things that really made the combat in IE games special. It was also what allowed spellcasters to be much more powerful than other classes WHEN they had their entire spell repertoire available but it was also what made them vulnerable when they ran out of spells! Cooldowns will flatten this dynamic making wizards no more "spellcasters" than other classes using their abilities.

Edited October 6, 2012 by qstoffe

[Infinitron]

Spells of particular levels may have a cooldown on that level. So once you've done a certain number of those abilities at that level the entire spell level goes into cooldown. Now how long that cooldown lasts...we're going to play with that. On short battles you probably won't be able to use those spells again' date=' but on long battles the cooldown will probably wear off and you'll be able to use those spells at that spell level again.

 

OMG! That is really, really bad. It's like they don't care for the combat in the old IE games at all?

 

I just can't believe they are going with a cooldown system. Being able to run out of spells was one of the things that really made the combat in IE games special. It was also what allowed spellcasters to be much more powerful than other classes WHEN they had their entire spell repertoire available but it was also what made them vulnerable when they ran out of spells! Cooldowns will flatten this dynamic making wizards no more "spellcasters" than other classes using their abilities.

 

Read this: http://i.imgur.com/o4NHz.png

[ogrezilla]

Spells of particular levels may have a cooldown on that level. So once you've done a certain number of those abilities at that level the entire spell level goes into cooldown. Now how long that cooldown lasts...we're going to play with that. On short battles you probably won't be able to use those spells again' date=' but on long battles the cooldown will probably wear off and you'll be able to use those spells at that spell level again.

 

OMG! That is really, really bad. It's like they don't care for the combat in the old IE games at all?

 

I just can't believe they are going with a cooldown system. Being able to run out of spells was one of the things that really made the combat in IE games special. It was also what allowed spellcasters to be much more powerful than other classes WHEN they had their entire spell repertoire available but it was also what made them vulnerable when they ran out of spells! Cooldowns will flatten this dynamic making wizards no more "spellcasters" than other classes using their abilities.

It will have no effect on the high level spells. Basically it will replace rock flinging with low level spells. I don't see how that is a bad thing. If anything, it makes mages feel more like spellcasters because they spend more time casting spells and less time auto attacking.

 

There is no effect on a mage's ceiling, but it brings their floor up a bit.

Edited October 6, 2012 by ogrezilla

[vrailor]

The unlimited spamming of all lower level spells depending on your level sounds not so good. Although it resolves the problem of the wizard without ammo all wizards will play in the same way then. I think it would be better to only have a limited number of spells per spell level which can be set to cooldown mode (can be cast unlimited).

For example female Edwin has used up all his high level (per-rest) spells. Of his/her level 1 spells he/she has choosen magic missile and mirror image to be unlimited (cooldown). For level two maybe one other spell. He/she can cast this three spells now unlimited, except when they're in cooldown. The other low level spell may also be cast like the high level spells and work with the per-rest system. Leveling-up increases the number of cooldown slots per spell level and raises the level which has cooldown spells.

Maybe you can also choose certain feat, perks, grimoires for increasing the slot number or altering certain spells (silent casting...).

This increases the number distinct spell sets thus creating more distinct ways for mages.

 

 

I hope you can understand what i mean. If not i will simply blame my english.

[Elerond]

Maybe they'll finally pull of a cooldown system that really works for once. It's highly unlikely, especially without an extremely insightful analysis of what went wrong with all of the other attempts, but it's not impossible.

 

EXACTLY!

 

The thing that troubles me the most is that I've heard Obsidian talk about how bad the old vancian and resting system is... BUT not a word of criticism towards cooldowns (I may have missed some announcement and if I have, please tell). It would be nice if they at least acknowledged the flaws of that system in the same way.

 

That is probably because they have not done any games with cooldown sytem yet, but they have done games with vancian system. So for them prespective is what went wrong in our previous games and how we can make it better. And your perspective to subject is that you like more of the system which obsidian did in past than of those systems that is now made by other companies. But Obsidian has commented that they want keep those features from their previous games which people have said to like about them. This features include strategic spell planning and tactical spell use, but they also have said that they want get rid of some features which most of the players didn't like, these include rest spamming, wizards that can't carry their weight in combat and etc.. And so they try to make new system which can offer best features from their previous games, but change those not so good features. That is why they are throwing around ideas how they could do that and see what ideas people like most and which they absolute don't like. They probably keep doing that until they have system which they like and most of the active backers like and from 5-6 months from today we will or at least they will have full picture how their system will work.

[Infinitron]

Actually, Alpha Protocol had cooldowns.

[qstoffe]

...they also have said that they want get rid of some features which most of the players didn't like, these include rest spamming, wizards that can't carry their weight in combat and etc.. And so they try to make new system which can offer best features from their previous games, but change those not so good features. That is why they are throwing around ideas how they could do that and see what ideas people like most and which they absolute don't like.

 

Yes fixing rest spamming problem would be great but not at the cost of introducing COOLDOWNS! IMO they seem to have been pretty locked on using cooldowns from the beginning. I have yet to hear them say ANYTHING bad about them. Most mechanics have cons but if you're partial you won't mention them.

 

 

Using D&D spells for this example, the wizard could cast fireball three times or fireball once, then haste, then slow, or two hastes and a fireball -- in any combination, the wizard has exhausted all three of his or her 3rd level spell slots. All level 3 spells are now locked out for 30(ish) seconds.

 

If we are talking 30s cooldowns then it's definitely cooldowns in the usual sense (i.e. Dragon Age).

Edited October 6, 2012 by qstoffe

[Infinitron]

If we are talking 30s cooldowns then it's definitely cooldowns in the usual sense (i.e. Dragon Age).

 

But only for lower level spells.

[Elerond]

Actually, Alpha Protocol had cooldowns.

 

Uhh, I forqot those. But now that I think it Alpha Protocol's system worked relatively well.

[qstoffe]

If we are talking 30s cooldowns then it's definitely cooldowns in the usual sense (i.e. Dragon Age).

 

But only for lower level spells.

 

Well if we go for the DnD example then being able to "spam" level 3 spells like fireball and haste would be way too powerful imo. Even being able to spam level 1 magic missiles at character level 20 would be a tad too much imo. Because of this I'm afraid they will nerf spells just because they don't fit in with a cooldown system. The dynamic of the wizard class be flattened to a ranged fighter.

Edited October 6, 2012 by qstoffe

[Infinitron]

If we are talking 30s cooldowns then it's definitely cooldowns in the usual sense (i.e. Dragon Age).

 

But only for lower level spells.

 

Well if we go for the DnD example then being able to "spam" level 3 spells like fireball and haste would be way too powerful imo. Even being able to spam level 1 magic missiles at character level 20 would be a tad too much imo. Because of this I'm afraid they will nerf spells just because they don't fit in with a cooldown system. The dynamic of the wizard class be flattened to a ranged fighter.

 

No, because you'll still have high level spells that replenish only on rest. Only in the endgame will you be high level enough to cast them with cooldowns. Maybe not even then.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Infinitron

[Elerond]

...they also have said that they want get rid of some features which most of the players didn't like, these include rest spamming, wizards that can't carry their weight in combat and etc.. And so they try to make new system which can offer best features from their previous games, but change those not so good features. That is why they are throwing around ideas how they could do that and see what ideas people like most and which they absolute don't like.

 

Yes fixing rest spamming problem would be great but not at the cost of introducing COOLDOWNS! IMO they seem to have been pretty locked on using cooldowns from the beginning. I have yet to hear them say ANYTHING bad about them. Most mechanics have cons but if you're partial you won't mention them.

 

 

Mechanics have their cons. Josh has stated some of cons what cooldown mechanic can have and said that he want to avoid them. But in their updates they have focused on to explain how and why they want to change old system. Maybe they should have added to their explanation how they avoid or try avoid known issues with their mechanics, so that people wouldn't dispute their ideas so much, but then they also could loose some of the input what they want to get with their updates.

[Elerond]

Then every battle is exactly the same. BORING. There is no Tactics, challenge or any sense of tension, like you DID experience in the IE games.

 

Did you ever play them?

unless the battles are designed so that you need different tactics for different encounters. The keys then are to design spells so there aren't "best" spells and to design encounters so they aren't all the same.

 

I'm not saying I want that design, but it can theoretically be done without removing tactics or challenge.

 

Even with explicitly designed encounters, to cover up such a horrible bland system, it would be boring. Period.

 

Seriously think about it. Imagine in BG you have access to EVERY SPELL (appropriate to your level) at EVERY encounter.

 

There is no meaningful tactics. There is no Challenge. Is boring. And there is NO sense of tension. It's just YAWN, next battle.

 

Have you played game with sorcerer, because that class fullifies your description quite well, but with that exception that it's not boring or unchallengin and it don't kill tension from the game.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Elerond

[Infinitron]

Josh post on SA:

 

Edited October 6, 2012 by Infinitron

[qstoffe]

Mechanics have their cons. Josh has stated some of cons what cooldown mechanic can have and said that he want to avoid them.

 

If they'll use cooldowns in ANY form they are certain to bring some cons with them. I don't think they have acknowledged any of those cons with the system they are aiming for. Or have they?

[qstoffe]

No, because you'll still have high level spells that replenish only on rest. Only in the endgame will you be high level enough to cast them with cooldowns. Maybe not even then.

 

I like the sound of that last part.

[ogrezilla]

they've also said that they don't know where they will draw the line between needing to rest and cooldown recovery. And it is never unlimited within the context of one fight. How it was described was that the cooldown doesn't start until you empty that level of spells. So just assuming you have all magic missile loaded in level 1, its not like your first magic missile will be off cooldown by the time you finish casting your last magic missile. There will always be a gap where you can't use that level of spells at all. Sure, the balance of the cooldown spells might need to change, but to avoid having mages stand around flinging rocks half the time I will take that tradeoff every day of the week.

[ogrezilla]

No, because you'll still have high level spells that replenish only on rest. Only in the endgame will you be high level enough to cast them with cooldowns. Maybe not even then.

 

I like the sound of that last part.

it sounded to me like wherever the cooldown/rest line was drawn, it was going to stay there. I'm sure that's something they haven't set in stone yet. And also keep in mind, they are not bound by the D&D spell levels. If they decide something makes more sense on the other side of the cooldown/rest line, they can change the level of that spell. They can completely change the spells if they want to. I actually wonder if they don't HAVE to change a lot of the spells for legality's sake.

Edited October 6, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Infinitron]

I think all "powerful" spells in this game will be high level (and thus not replenished by cooldown), but unlike D&D, the player will have at least some access to high level spells from the very beginning of the game.

Edited October 6, 2012 by Infinitron

[ogrezilla]

Mechanics have their cons. Josh has stated some of cons what cooldown mechanic can have and said that he want to avoid them.

 

If they'll use cooldowns in ANY form they are certain to bring some cons with them. I don't think they have acknowledged any of those cons with the system they are aiming for. Or have they?

my guess for cons is that the lowest level spells may end up being slightly weaker than they would be in a pure vancian system. As I've said, I will make that tradeoff to get rid of rock slinging every time since it should only be the low level spells affected. Any rest to recover spell should remain unchanged.

Edited October 6, 2012 by ogrezilla

[ogrezilla]

I think all "powerful" spells in this game will be high level, but unlike D&D, the player will have at least some access to high level spells from the very beginning.

that's something I'd like. Mages were just plain boring due to a lack of spells in the early going of the old games.

[qstoffe]

it sounded to me like wherever the cooldown/rest line was drawn, it was going to stay there. I'm sure that's something they haven't set in stone yet.

 

I would be fine with that. That is, a fixed level from which you can spam ever-replenishing spells. Preferably those spells should be comparable in power to using a sling.

Edited October 6, 2012 by qstoffe

[Elerond]

Mechanics have their cons. Josh has stated some of cons what cooldown mechanic can have and said that he want to avoid them.

 

If they'll use cooldowns in ANY form they are certain to bring some cons with them. I don't think they have acknowledged any of those cons with the system they are aiming for. Or have they?

 

Yes they have. For example Josh stated that he don't want rest spamming change to waiting around for cooldowns counters to go zero.